Madden NFL 12 Interview: Donny Moore - Scouting Talent

[KingV2k3]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

If I can do it in my spare time for my site, then I would think that some guys who are professionally paid to do this could do it as well. Sheesh...

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

That whole interview, in which Donny explains the use of multiple sources, including multiple scouting agencies and actual combine numbers, he mentions starting with a template based on a commonly used aspect of scouting (the player comparison) and that's what you all feel the need to focus on? You'd think he said "I just take the player closest and use the same ratings and drop his awareness".

Not sure about the other guys, but the above was the highlight of DCEBB2001's post for me...

AJ, you've participated in his thread on this topic and how it relates to the site he's currently updating...

IMHO, it's clear that he's got a more "fleshed out / thought out" approach to how the ratings should be done than anything Donny Moore had to say in this article...

All I (or anyone else can go by) it's what is said and relayed to the public and this missve from that department at EA was underwhelming, at best...

You obviously have a different take on it because you're there, but if I'm picking a ratings system based on what I've read on this forum, I'm going with Dan's...

Hopefully, a lively discourse will inspire everybody to "raise their game" where this is concerned...

That is, I believe, the "best case scenario" upshot of this type of discussion...

Happy gaming, gents!

[khaliib]

Quote: Originally Posted by adembroski

That whole interview, in which Donny explains the use of multiple sources, including multiple scouting agencies and actual combine numbers, he mentions starting with a template based on a commonly used aspect of scouting (the player comparison) and that's what you all feel the need to focus on? You'd think he said "I just take the player closest and use the same ratings and drop his awareness".

My reply to this would be again, what use is this to gamers when whatever method used will result in the same "Gameplay Impact" as it did since release on Next-Gen?

What purpose is knowing what resources EA draws it's info to dictate player ratings when it's proven fact that outside of the SPEED/Thow Power ratings, no other ratings shows a difference during actual Gameplay.

Set something at 12 then another at 99 and you'll get, "NOTHING"!!!
They all react the same until a Slider Adjustment is done to Dumb-Down the AI causing some weird reaction during gameplay.

Again, why is it not to early to release this kind of stuff, but actual meaningful information about the issues that have plagued this game for years (that the community have spent hours tweaking/testing to give feedback to improve) must be Hush-Hush?

What gamers are trying to say is that it's the same OLD SYSTEM used, not the ratings given to a player that's the problem.

Madden is FAR behind were it should be by now and the Community has supported EA for a long time while little has change.

And this is how someone from the team responds to that Community?

[DCEBB2001]

Wow! I was not expecting my one post to receive the applause that it did. Thanks for that guys!

But the main thing is that the guys at EA don't really know what they are doing if they are rating players like this. That is the primary problem I have with them; they don't know how to use the data they get properly in determining player ratings. They may have all this scouting data, but they seem to fail to use it properly. Why? Because they don't seem to be football guys. They may be OK at developing games, but have they ever played under center? Taken a snap? Tackled a 200lb RB head on? Most likely not at any level of significance. Not to toot my own horn here but I have played at every level except the professional one as a player and coach. I know what it takes to separate the good players from bad ones, which is why I incorporated that knowledge into the ratings I do at FBG. Think of it as Football Ratings done by a Football Coach/Player. It doesn't hurt that I am a stats freak either because knowing how to manipulate data is also clutch. Regardless, it seems like the guys at EA could do a better job with more money and their professional jobs on the line.

[Segagendude]

Although I never play this way, one thing that always bothered me is the ability to put a PUNTER on the O/L, and still be able to hold his block and prevent a sack of a QB.

I've seen vids of this happening, and again, I never personally experiment this way, as I like to keep it real. But it proves a major point about the ratings.....

Hopefully there'll be major improvements in this area...

[Jarodd21]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Wow! I was not expecting my one post to receive the applause that it did. Thanks for that guys! But the main thing is that the guys at EA don't really know what they are doing if they are rating players like this. That is the primary problem I have with them; they don't know how to use the data they get properly in determining player ratings. They may have all this scouting data, but they seem to fail to use it properly. Why? Because they don't seem to be football guys. They may be OK at developing games, but have they ever played under center? Taken a snap? Tackled a 200lb RB head on? Most likely not at any level of significance. Not to toot my own horn here but I have played at every level except the professional one as a player and coach. I know what it takes to separate the good players from bad ones, which is why I incorporated that knowledge into the ratings I do at FBG. Think of it as Football Ratings done by a Football Coach/Player. It doesn't hurt that I am a stats freak either because knowing how to manipulate data is also clutch. Regardless, it seems like the guys at EA could do a better job with more money and their professional jobs on the line.

Great post.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Wow! I was not expecting my one post to receive the applause that it did. Thanks for that guys! But the main thing is that the guys at EA don't really know what they are doing if they are rating players like this. That is the primary problem I have with them; they don't know how to use the data they get properly in determining player ratings. They may have all this scouting data, but they seem to fail to use it properly. Why? Because they don't seem to be football guys. They may be OK at developing games, but have they ever played under center? Taken a snap? Tackled a 200lb RB head on? Most likely not at any level of significance. Not to toot my own horn here but I have played at every level except the professional one as a player and coach. I know what it takes to separate the good players from bad ones, which is why I incorporated that knowledge into the ratings I do at FBG. Think of it as Football Ratings done by a Football Coach/Player. It doesn't hurt that I am a stats freak either because knowing how to manipulate data is also clutch. Regardless, it seems like the guys at EA could do a better job with more money and their professional jobs on the line.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think it's fair to say they've haven't played or coached football before. I know of a few of them that have played in the college ranks and I'm sure I'm missing some too.

Last year, I think the Titans OC or Line coach helped implement the run blocking. They converse with Madden throughout the year and various coaches on each team as well.

I think what Adembroski was trying to say it's hard to criticize a 4 question interview without knowing what Donnie does in a 10 plus hr. day.

I feel that 4 question interview barely scratched the surface and we were just fed a few bread crumbs is the way I see it.

Also, we have a writer in our paper that is very thorough on the Packers. He just did a draft guide on projections. Top 15 gone when the Packers pick, next 13, 50-50 chance and the next 30 left.

In most of the ratings, he talks to scouts and they will say, this player is better than Tebow, Ingram is similar to Ahman Green, etc...... So, if scouts do it, why can't Donnie and EA do it? I'm confused on that part. They may not turn out like Ahman Green or Tebow, so, then, they get adjusted down the line. ????

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by khaliib

What purpose is knowing what resources EA draws it's info to dictate player ratings when it's proven fact that outside of the SPEED/Thow Power ratings, no other ratings shows a difference during actual Gameplay.

That is a proven fact? Funny, when I play, the coverage and press ratings of my DBs make a HUGE difference between them getting burned every other play and shutting down their receiver, and when if I put some guys on the line who can't tackle, they'll get run over regularly. Oh, and ever tried to stiff arm a tackler? My power HB with a stiff arm of 98 regularly breaks tackles like this while my scat back never ever managed to do that.

So no, it's definitely not a "proven fact" that none of these ratings matter. Are they implemented poorly, especially in aspects like OLine play? Definitely. But that doesn't mean all of them don't matter.

[guaps]

While this is an interesting discussion about Tiburons (not EAs) approach towards player ratings, I don't feel it'll amount to anything other than chatter. Ratings have become a HUGE part of Madden's marketing and keeps the game in the gamers minds throughout the season. Madden can never have APF 2k8-style 'ratings/abilities' because then they'd lose the weekly updates, which helps feed the marketing machine.

There are many valid points in this thread and Dan's work and insight with the ratings should be applauded, but as long as the underlying ratings system (and gameplay) is as flawed as it is, then the game will still play like the arcade football game we've come to know.

As pointed out by many some ratings have little to no effect. Players play the same, because everything seems to be build up around one model. lofeazy mentioned player tendencies in soccer video games and while they are far from perfect, it makes the players feel more individual and unique - much like the abilities system of APF 2k8. None of the soccer games, however, have a proper AI system that recognizes those tendencies from teammates yet. Currently AI teammates don't recognize the abilities and strengths of their fellow teammates, but act like 11 individuals on the field instead.

While Tiburons current approach with 49-50 individual rating to separate players from each other might look logical and functional on paper, it translates into very poor gameplay in the actual game. If you put Randy Moss and Wes Welker next to each other and make them run identical routes, you'd think you were watching a football equivalent of synchronized swimming. Players appear to be build around one model and their body size is scaled without any effect.

I personally prefer APF 2k8's 'ratings' model because of its simplicity, but of the ratings systems I've tried, I have a sweet spot for FIFA 11's for four reasons:

• Firstly, because height and weight matter just as much as ratings (they have a locomotion engine that allows for different body types) meaning that two players with identical ratings but different height and weight won't play the same.
• Secondly, because I feel ratings are scaled with respect for the game and not for marketing purposes (highest OVR is 90 and highest individual rating is 96).
• Thirdly, because the ratings that the game shipped with are still excellent to play with to this day.
• And lastly, because you can compete with a 'mediocre' team if you combine complementary players that fit each other and your strategy/playing style instead of just the best rated.

However, as I state above I believe many of the excellent points in this thread will mostly become chatter that EA will choose to dismiss, even though we know that they (adembroski) have read the post.