Madden NFL 11 News Post

Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

05:17 PM - November 19, 2010 by Steve_OS

Check out the second Madden NFL designers podcast.

Animations and defense (zone) is going to be worked on extensively
Discussion on real time physics, it's a long term goal and is the future
Triumphs and failures, over the years (discussion)
Donny talks about speed rating domination
One of the top priorities is DEFENSE, as well as value
Metrics - Play Now, Online Play Now, Offline Franchise are the most played modes, the rest are tied well below.
Bowling pin tackle discussion.
Penalties... PI and defensive holding discussion.
Slowing down the CPU snap discussion
Next podcast to showcase Franchise mode

Quote:


	"Madden Creative Director Ian Cummings this week sets down with Donny Moore and Larry Richart of the Madden design team to talk about a few things; This Week's Roster Update, Game Play Guru Larry Richart, Real Time Physics Discussion, NBA Elite to Tiburon Chat, Twitter Questions, and the already famous Hateful Tweet of the week."

Listen to the podcast, right here.

According to Ian Cummings, it is already available on iTunes.

Game: Madden NFL 11Reader Score: 6/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS3 / Xbox 360Votes for game: 96 - View All

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Member Comments

# 101 wallofhate @ 11/21/10 11:51 PM

At this point I think its almost counter productive. It feels like a bad NFL team! The fans want change and progress and ownership is seems to make bad move after bad move. I personally think they have a good team in place its just weird to me how unbalanced it is. Sometimes its so stiff its unnerving and then all of the sudden your rb breaks a tackle and stumbles and it looks so realistic you can't help but to replay it over and over! You zoom in on the players glove and you can see the Reebok on the fingers and yet you have so many uniform errors??!! Defensive A.I. plays how you want them to for 2 down and 3rd down its like all your defense has an concussion??

These guys have a job to do and that is to make money by selling games and content. I'm not mad at them for a lot of what they do. A lot of the things the people at EA have to realize is most of that are young kids or people just trying to get a rise out of them. The "true" community like myself (im 28) just want them to know that the product of football they're producing is just not acceptable anymore!! We know its hard that's why everyone can't make games but other developers have shown and proven that not only are major changes possible but also possible in yearly cycles. Sliders are good but they shouldn't be the answer to make a game payable jusT more realistic!!!

Penalize players for not playing realistic. I shouldn't play my 11 year old nephew and he be able to keep up on the higher levels! Bring back the chess game bring back utilizing your star player to win the game. And for the love of God please fix presentation and broadcasting! Hearing Collingsworth call the new broadcaster Tom is just plain ridiculous! We are not asking for perfection we just want a larger chunk of realistic football that you havent given us since plantation 2 and xbox days! Bring a hell of a game next year and then you can just tweak the game through the next few years. Gradually isn't going to do the trick anymore its time to change the culture of maddened as we know it and switch the perception. just my thoughts thanks for reading and listening

# 102 rawcorp @ 11/22/10 12:28 AM

Ian should know by now that most of us on here griping about Madden are griping about THE SAME THINGS YEAR AFTER YEAR. He says that they are doing everything to make this a better representation of NFL football, at the same time implementing new features. Granted each year they add some new "gimmick" to make Madden feel new and improved. But they NEVER seem to fix the core gameplay elements that make football more realistic. Pass Rush, pocket formation, playcalling, tackling, player interactions etc (i.e. WR/DB or OL/DL interactions) are never truly fixed to imitate the real NFL.

The thing is its not like these things are impossible. Other companies have implemented those things, and even previous Maddens implemented it too. The thing is they fix useless crap like hand towels, or throwback uniforms etc. but they dont ever seem to fix the real things that would make people want this game.

Why must we always complain about the same things every year? Just fix it for crying out loud.

# 103 Palo20 @ 11/22/10 12:44 AM

Ian, thanks for the insights.

--Getting CB shading back is just a very key part of strategic football. I hope it makes it in.

--I don't know if you're misunderstanding a little of what the "hardcore" crowd wants. I don't think anyone wants to play a 2 hour game of Madden with 22 penalties. Most people have simply asked for illegal contact calls and more PI calls (hopefully with some cool animations too).

I think the fix for this is to really make sure the penalty sliders work so the people who might want to see a ton of penalties will have that option. Having defensive PI at 100 should make for 4-5 PI calls per game. If the slider works a little better, we won't see any more "I've only seen 1 PI call in 87 games" threads.

--With regards to gameplanning and gameflow, I think they were great additions and I think they went over well in the hardcore community. Giving us a chance to create CPU gameplans (when they were working correctly) and really dictating how the CPU calls a game was a huge step forward IMO.

PS....

Please let us edit ratings in Franchise. Thanks

# 104 Aggies7 @ 11/22/10 02:55 AM

Podcast 3 Question

Any word on using the defensive player lock system like NCAA where the came spins around to behind the defense?

# 105 guaps @ 11/22/10 05:50 AM

I appreciate these podcasts and that the community gets the opportunity to hear more about the vision of the development team. Understandably they can't say much as it's November, but you get the overall idea that they've got the right intentions.

However, I still have a grudge with their attitude towards ratings (especially the whole czar-thing they've got going on). I agree with kushmir's posts that Madden's rating system is really poor and I do believe it needs an extreme makeover. At the same time I also understand that player ratings has become a big part of Madden's marketing.

There is no comparable sports video game to Madden when it comes to the promotion of players ratings. Over the last couple of years we've seen an increased spin on ratings (the Housmanzadah incident, "live" draft day ratings, massive weekly updates etc.). This year we even had several Madden forums and webpages creating big headlines when Moss' spectacular catch rating increased by 1 after the Jets game (when he was in NE).

I just cannot help being discouraged by all these player rating events, when I know that it has very little to no effect on gameplay whatsoever. Madden still plays like it's got generic players on all positions despite more ratings than the PS2 counterpart and you can't really tell the difference between Julius Peppers and Corey Wootton when you play the game.

# 106 carnalnirvana @ 11/22/10 08:44 AM

i definately disagree with the assessment that pre snap controls are not sim.....

first sim is subjective, so as a designer who care about fans( both sides hardcore and casual) it should be in the game with an option to turn it off.

second, if we are going to apply (strict) sim to madden, then the GOD'S EYE camera angle has to be the first thing to go.....

its probably the most un-sim thing in the game, because the player i control knows every angle and release of every pass....every run etc...

i understand if its not possible to return it at the moment, but there are wayyyyyyyy more non sim elements parading unnoticed in the game........

# 107 Hova57 @ 11/22/10 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnalnirvana


	i definately disagree with the assessment that pre snap controls are not sim..... first sim is subjective, so as a designer who care about fans( both sides hardcore and casual) it should be in the game with an option to turn it off. second, if we are going to apply (strict) sim to madden, then the GOD'S EYE camera angle has to be the first thing to go..... its probably the most un-sim thing in the game, because the player i control knows every angle and release of every pass....every run etc... i understand if its not possible to return it at the moment, but there are wayyyyyyyy more non sim elements parading unnoticed in the game........

Honestly i would run with the Backbreaker qb angle maybe a little higher or lower to look out more but we will see. I think the most i've got out of this thread is the use of certain words used caused an outcry and misinterpreted quotes.

# 108 guaps @ 11/22/10 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnalnirvana


	i definately disagree with the assessment that pre snap controls are not sim..... first sim is subjective, so as a designer who care about fans( both sides hardcore and casual) it should be in the game with an option to turn it off. second, if we are going to apply (strict) sim to madden, then the GOD'S EYE camera angle has to be the first thing to go..... its probably the most un-sim thing in the game, because the player i control knows every angle and release of every pass....every run etc... i understand if its not possible to return it at the moment, but there are wayyyyyyyy more non sim elements parading unnoticed in the game........

I can't agree!

For me, a simulation game is a game that represents football in a realistic manner. When I start up the game I want to see the players move and interact realistically (physics/collision detection/locomotion/animation stuff), and behave like the real counterpart football players (AI).

Simulation is all about the gameplay, not the camera angles IMO.

# 109 poster @ 11/22/10 10:43 AM

Ian, please make the penalty sliders work as intended. If sliders work as intended you can make all types of gamers happy. I know you must realize it is really that simple, why it hasn't gotten any attention over the years, I am not sure? Perhaps the suits/devs decided it wasn't a priority, or it is difficult to implement without ruining another aspect of the game?

I did not purchase this years game as of yet, but I think from the demo there was a hardcode mode or something to that affect. Perhaps like NBA 2K, have a sim or aracde mode that will adjust sliders to coincide with each setting. Sim will have penalty sliders cranked up to reflect the realism alot of us want. Then everyone can adjust from there. Simple in game tutorials can explain to casual or hard core games what the settings will do.

As far as pre snap, something needs to be done to get aspects back into madden that were in previous versions. If it can't be done pre-snap (please fix the quick CPU snapping of the football! :-) ), perhaps tie it into Gameplanning (again optional for those who don't care/on or off in a setting) where pre game/halftime/even after each quarter you can adjust defensive or offensive tendencies/options. Even tie it into taking of time outs, again somewhat similar to NBA 2K where you can choose where to focus.

Just some thoughts. Also, if more stat based overlays are created (like rushing leaders, QB rating leaders, sack leaders, PPG allowed. etc), please, please ensure that it stays on the screen for a proper amount of time so that it can be clearly read from beginning to end. In fact, have a prompt that says "press X or Y or whatever to skip".

All EA Sports games that have presented these overlays, have done such a poor job of implementing this. Makes absolutely no sense that all of this work goes into this, and it is displayed for 2-3 seconds. The Extra Point scores I believe does the same thing. Whose idea is it to display such a long list of readable items for 2-3 seconds?

It boggles my mind that something could be so poorly implemented. Not a knock on you at all, maybe you guys though you could please both parties (those who want to see/and those who want a quick game), but it is an **** fail for those who want to see.

The whole point of this message and others is to give us options for everything. We are all different and play the game a different way. Don't force us to play the game a certain way, let us choose how by giving us options. Thank you!

# 110 huskerwr38 @ 11/22/10 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	Always a chance for big changes. 10 was tackling-focused. 11 was locomotion and blocking-focused. 12 will be ?

That is disappointing that 10 was tackling focus when the tackles in Madden are an eye sore and need to be reworked again. Tackles are by far the most unrealistic thing about Madden because of certain things like when one player engages in tackling there can not be any interaction by any of the other players to influence the tackle in progress. And also the "bowling pin" tackles are so horrible.

Another reason is that tackles don't really seem to follow any natural physics. For instance, I can come in full speed hit a guy (who is just standing there like a QB) from the front and we'll fall forward instead of flying backwards.

# 111 BezO @ 11/22/10 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	So just to clarify - you think that out of the box, a game should take 2 hours to complete with the realistic amounts of penalties? You don't agree with our stated vision of creating that 100% accurate representation of football but actually making the default gameplay settings and sliders a more approachable and enjoyable experience?

Welcome back Ian! Of course you come on during the weekend when I don't post. Hopefully you'll stick around.

I'm curious about these casual gamers everyone speaks of. By what's said, I never know if they're talking about actual casual gamers, who by definition don't play that often, or arcade-type players who play often but are not looking for an authentic NFL experience. I can't imagine you all spend so much time aiming at true casual gamers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	PS I'd love to be on this forum more but when so many people have seemingly lost trust in our ability to deliver our vision it's really too frustrating and takes a toll personally. As you all know the proof is in the pudding. In August hopefully we'll change your mind.

The plus is that you can run these ideas by us and get feedback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	I did listen, but talk only gets so far. Strategy Pad and Gameplanning and GameFlow didn't blow away the hardcore for sure, but those are tiny miniscule drops of dev investment. New locomotion systems on the other hand, are massive. Online team play was an EA mandate...it also was massive. We listened because it seemed like everyone was in unison that we focus on core gameplay changes, and I think it upset too many people when they realize how much time it takes to actually do something like that. Again in the podcasts I keep talking about not putting all the eggs in one basket again as a major learning.

Those smaller dev investments add up. And from my point of view, they were the most noticable improvements. At what point do you attack the big jobs?

When it comes to realistic elements that other games have accomplished and Madden hasn't, I can only imagine the current "engines" make it harder for you guys. At some point the big jobs have to be addressed. Are we waiting for NEXT gen for things like tiered defensive play calling, gap/contain assignments in every defense, engaged player mobility, pause menu formation subs on offense, defense & special teams, ect?

Does EA really believe that new & casual gamers are more profitible than loyal fans?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	I am not gung-ho for more pre-play options because they actually AREN'T sim, but many have made the point that because play-calling doesn't have the depth you want, these are a way to get around that restriction. It's something we're looking into.

At what point do you address the depth and abandon the band-aids? At this rate, many of us feel you all will never produce a simulation. It may have been you, but I remember reading something from EA that implied you all regret "rebuilding" the game for this generation of systems. I'm guessing you all won't be doing that again. But that makes me curious about when these big fixes get done.

I think NBA 2K & The Show got away with keeping their last gen "engines" because they were more flexible & easy to build on. Madden's "engines" seem much more rigid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	Last year was a 'back-to-basics' approach from the playbook guys to ensure that all the plays that existed were actually drawn up correctly and a house-cleaning to make sure all the new run-blocking assignment AI was implemented correctly. I'll talk to them about filling them back out again.

I remember there being space issues regarding the playbooks. It seems like you all don't have enough room to include a satisfactory number of plays with the current system. How about re-tiering it?

-Personnel first, instead of formation
-Formation next, but include EVERY formation possible with selected personnel. For example, selecting base personnel will allow for I-formation, 3 "WRs" one of which is a split out HB, 4 "WRs" with HB & FB split out, ect. As it stands, those other base personnel formations are grouped separate.
-Then the play, but have 1 grouping of plays that adjusts to the formation selected. For example, there's just one strong-side isolation, but it can be run from any 2-back set... even 1-back set with a split HB motioning back to the backfield. Same could be done with route combinations.

Something that would cut down on space yet still add more plays is desparately needed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	Ugh, can we for once not blow quotes out of proportion? Is that the situation we are in here? I loved those features too. In fact I was the designer that put those in. Let's face it - a defense isn't built at pre-play with each player actually changing their assignments all over the field. We all know that isn't REALISTIC or SIM. But as I acknowledge, Madden gamers need that control because the defensive options are limited. It's the same with offensive hot routes. We break realism in pre-play to allow you more options.

Same question. When do you tier the defensive play calling and scrap the band-aids? NFL defensive coordinators are not limited to "plays". They build schemes by combining fronts, stunts, blitzes & coverage. When does Madden get to that?

# 112 Hova57 @ 11/22/10 02:41 PM

Honestly, If the reactions to the podcast are getting too harsh if they fed a really big bone to us the podcast and info would be taken differently. Such as telling us that they are use RTP they don't have to get into great detail , but tell us it will be in the game. Most would view info from here on out differently. or something they are doing to the defense. Outcry on here is a result of being in the dark and the feeling of not being listened or acknowledged. Giving a dog a bone in the early stages can do alot for this title once it is released.

# 113 rangerrick012 @ 11/22/10 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	Good that we're in agreement. Football IS fun man. I'm not saying it should be twitchy or unrealistic or offensive shootouts...that's not what I mean with 'quick and fun'. I'm saying the games shouldn't last 2 hours and they should be fun. They should still be realistic, they shouldn't be arcadey, everything should be as close to football as possible. But you shouldn't get 13 holding penalties and 5 false starts and take 2 hours to finish. Do you disagree with that?

I strongly disagree with that. I know you guys elude to 2K11. It's brlliant. They have Sim, Default, Causal, and Arcade settings, to let the user decide what sort of game they want to play. It'd be great if Madden had that. I'd love to play w/ accurate amt of Pass interference, holding, false starts. Everything we see on Sunday, right? I don't see how penalties are something that should not be in the game.

# 114 ryan36 @ 11/22/10 03:40 PM

Wouldn't penalties be a ratio? x amount of holding per snap, dependent on what type of play , etc?

My things I hope they work on...some more nitpicky than others...
1) The hitch-step for things like the wildcat
2) Playbooks back to normal
3) Commentary
4) D-line play.
5) Play action

The play action usually resulting in a sack/hurry really bugs me because SO MANY of the pass plays in the playbooks are PA. I don't call 'em because I want to call PA, I call them because I like the route.

# 115 Ian_Cummings @ 11/22/10 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rangerrick012


	I strongly disagree with that. I know you guys elude to 2K11. It's brlliant. They have Sim, Default, Causal, and Arcade settings, to let the user decide what sort of game they want to play. It'd be great if Madden had that. I'd love to play w/ accurate amt of Pass interference, holding, false starts. Everything we see on Sunday, right? I don't see how penalties are something that should not be in the game.

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period.

I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

# 116 ryan36 @ 11/22/10 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT. The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period. I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!!

But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

# 117 Hova57 @ 11/22/10 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ryan36


	Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!! But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

Good post Ryan, I think thats how the game should modeled overall. you have arcade with ratings, playcalling and presentation to match that, sim and so forth so if you have someone that wants a tiered system for playcalling then they fall into that sim package, arcade pretty much would be one button push for everything limited playbook . then have a normal slot that would be the standard setup , with current playcalling, and penalties.

# 118 adembroski @ 11/22/10 04:35 PM

Ryan rephrases exactly what Ian said, Ryan gets the "good post" comment and agreement. And people wonder why Ian gets so frustrated:P

Not knocking you, Hova, you just happened to be illustrating it.

I think the thing that threw everyone was the way you guys were praising the "new direction" of EA's NBA franchise, which many took as your personal opinion of how sports games should be.

# 119 rangerrick012 @ 11/22/10 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA


	ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT. The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period. I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

Ok. Sorry for the mis communication. Just thought that you were inferring that those elements, default or customizable, shouldn't be in Madden at all.

# 120 PhillyJim76 @ 11/22/10 04:36 PM

First off, kudos to Ian (hard for me to say) for coming here and explaining the cause and effect relationship between various factors of the game.

I'd still love to know what tweaks and settings changes that the EA development team use for their own offline franchises (if they even have the time or desire to play them because after all, it is still their job and they need downtime).

I ask this because, say Ian thinks out of the box pass blocking is too easy...what does he change his settings to? They know more than any of us, we just all speculate.

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