Madden NFL Designers Podcast #2

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

So just to clarify - you think that out of the box, a game should take 2 hours to complete with the realistic amounts of penalties? You don't agree with our stated vision of creating that 100% accurate representation of football but actually making the default gameplay settings and sliders a more approachable and enjoyable experience?

Welcome back Ian! Of course you come on during the weekend when I don't post. Hopefully you'll stick around.

I'm curious about these casual gamers everyone speaks of. By what's said, I never know if they're talking about actual casual gamers, who by definition don't play that often, or arcade-type players who play often but are not looking for an authentic NFL experience. I can't imagine you all spend so much time aiming at true casual gamers.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

PS I'd love to be on this forum more but when so many people have seemingly lost trust in our ability to deliver our vision it's really too frustrating and takes a toll personally. As you all know the proof is in the pudding. In August hopefully we'll change your mind.

The plus is that you can run these ideas by us and get feedback.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I did listen, but talk only gets so far. Strategy Pad and Gameplanning and GameFlow didn't blow away the hardcore for sure, but those are tiny miniscule drops of dev investment. New locomotion systems on the other hand, are massive. Online team play was an EA mandate...it also was massive. We listened because it seemed like everyone was in unison that we focus on core gameplay changes, and I think it upset too many people when they realize how much time it takes to actually do something like that. Again in the podcasts I keep talking about not putting all the eggs in one basket again as a major learning.

Those smaller dev investments add up. And from my point of view, they were the most noticable improvements. At what point do you attack the big jobs?

When it comes to realistic elements that other games have accomplished and Madden hasn't, I can only imagine the current "engines" make it harder for you guys. At some point the big jobs have to be addressed. Are we waiting for NEXT gen for things like tiered defensive play calling, gap/contain assignments in every defense, engaged player mobility, pause menu formation subs on offense, defense & special teams, ect?

Does EA really believe that new & casual gamers are more profitible than loyal fans?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

I am not gung-ho for more pre-play options because they actually AREN'T sim, but many have made the point that because play-calling doesn't have the depth you want, these are a way to get around that restriction. It's something we're looking into.

At what point do you address the depth and abandon the band-aids? At this rate, many of us feel you all will never produce a simulation. It may have been you, but I remember reading something from EA that implied you all regret "rebuilding" the game for this generation of systems. I'm guessing you all won't be doing that again. But that makes me curious about when these big fixes get done.

I think NBA 2K & The Show got away with keeping their last gen "engines" because they were more flexible & easy to build on. Madden's "engines" seem much more rigid.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Last year was a 'back-to-basics' approach from the playbook guys to ensure that all the plays that existed were actually drawn up correctly and a house-cleaning to make sure all the new run-blocking assignment AI was implemented correctly. I'll talk to them about filling them back out again.

I remember there being space issues regarding the playbooks. It seems like you all don't have enough room to include a satisfactory number of plays with the current system. How about re-tiering it?

-Personnel first, instead of formation
-Formation next, but include EVERY formation possible with selected personnel. For example, selecting base personnel will allow for I-formation, 3 "WRs" one of which is a split out HB, 4 "WRs" with HB & FB split out, ect. As it stands, those other base personnel formations are grouped separate.
-Then the play, but have 1 grouping of plays that adjusts to the formation selected. For example, there's just one strong-side isolation, but it can be run from any 2-back set... even 1-back set with a split HB motioning back to the backfield. Same could be done with route combinations.

Something that would cut down on space yet still add more plays is desparately needed.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Ugh, can we for once not blow quotes out of proportion? Is that the situation we are in here? I loved those features too. In fact I was the designer that put those in. Let's face it - a defense isn't built at pre-play with each player actually changing their assignments all over the field. We all know that isn't REALISTIC or SIM. But as I acknowledge, Madden gamers need that control because the defensive options are limited. It's the same with offensive hot routes. We break realism in pre-play to allow you more options.

Same question. When do you tier the defensive play calling and scrap the band-aids? NFL defensive coordinators are not limited to "plays". They build schemes by combining fronts, stunts, blitzes & coverage. When does Madden get to that?

[Hova57]

Honestly, If the reactions to the podcast are getting too harsh if they fed a really big bone to us the podcast and info would be taken differently. Such as telling us that they are use RTP they don't have to get into great detail , but tell us it will be in the game. Most would view info from here on out differently. or something they are doing to the defense. Outcry on here is a result of being in the dark and the feeling of not being listened or acknowledged. Giving a dog a bone in the early stages can do alot for this title once it is released.

[rangerrick012]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

Good that we're in agreement. Football IS fun man. I'm not saying it should be twitchy or unrealistic or offensive shootouts...that's not what I mean with 'quick and fun'. I'm saying the games shouldn't last 2 hours and they should be fun. They should still be realistic, they shouldn't be arcadey, everything should be as close to football as possible. But you shouldn't get 13 holding penalties and 5 false starts and take 2 hours to finish. Do you disagree with that?

I strongly disagree with that. I know you guys elude to 2K11. It's brlliant. They have Sim, Default, Causal, and Arcade settings, to let the user decide what sort of game they want to play. It'd be great if Madden had that. I'd love to play w/ accurate amt of Pass interference, holding, false starts. Everything we see on Sunday, right? I don't see how penalties are something that should not be in the game.

[ryan36]

Wouldn't penalties be a ratio? x amount of holding per snap, dependent on what type of play , etc?

My things I hope they work on...some more nitpicky than others...
1) The hitch-step for things like the wildcat
2) Playbooks back to normal
3) Commentary
4) D-line play.
5) Play action

The play action usually resulting in a sack/hurry really bugs me because SO MANY of the pass plays in the playbooks are PA. I don't call 'em because I want to call PA, I call them because I like the route.

[Ian_Cummings]

Quote: Originally Posted by rangerrick012

I strongly disagree with that. I know you guys elude to 2K11. It's brlliant. They have Sim, Default, Causal, and Arcade settings, to let the user decide what sort of game they want to play. It'd be great if Madden had that. I'd love to play w/ accurate amt of Pass interference, holding, false starts. Everything we see on Sunday, right? I don't see how penalties are something that should not be in the game.

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT.

The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period.

I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

[ryan36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ian_Cummings_EA

ARGH I AM NOT SAYING THAT. The point is that the DEFAULT settings should not have high penalty numbers and long game times. Period. I am 100% in agreement with everyone that Madden should be able to have realistic stats, penalties, physics, locomotion, blocking, catching, etc, you name it. I'm just saying that the DEFAULT settings out of the box are going to be shorter games and less penalties. More sliders and customization and toggles are all means to get to an ultimate perfect simulation for those that want it.

Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!!

But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

[Hova57]

Quote: Originally Posted by ryan36

Imagine OS misunderstanding what Ian says..that never happens!!! But Ian , I think it would be awesome if the devs tuned the sliders into pre-packaged styles a la the arcade, sim...etc. So maybe default is all "50" but then when I flip one tab to "sim" I get speed threshold "35", Pass rush "55" , kicker accuracy "15" etc... that way we would have a pretty easy starting point to make the slider adjustments?

Good post Ryan, I think thats how the game should modeled overall. you have arcade with ratings, playcalling and presentation to match that, sim and so forth so if you have someone that wants a tiered system for playcalling then they fall into that sim package, arcade pretty much would be one button push for everything limited playbook . then have a normal slot that would be the standard setup , with current playcalling, and penalties.

[adembroski]

Ryan rephrases exactly what Ian said, Ryan gets the "good post" comment and agreement. And people wonder why Ian gets so frustrated:P

Not knocking you, Hova, you just happened to be illustrating it.

I think the thing that threw everyone was the way you guys were praising the "new direction" of EA's NBA franchise, which many took as your personal opinion of how sports games should be.