NBA Live 18 Videos Released

[TecmoZack]

Quote: Originally Posted by noshun

Will this is the very thing you and I talk about. The devs think it looks good because you got the SLA mentality running around in these forums that don't provide feedback. You can spot it easily. They provide no feedback on what they don't like or like. Its all "yes man" mindsets. Just look at the examples. You got guys posting about, "no one is gonna tell me what to like or don't like." Or " you cant tell me what to buy or don't buy." Notice how no one on the forums brought that up except them. They didn't say 1 word on the issues, because they don't give feedback. Theyre drawing straws trying to come up with something to resemble a rebuttal, its so weak.. They can buy and like whatever they want. No dispute from me there. I'm all about addressing legacy issues, and from what I highlighted Will, I just don't get why the devs don't get that it looks bad at times. Real head scratcher there. One guy wanted to call me a Live h a t e r, but due to the fact I've listed the things I've seen and done to try to get the issues fixed, he hasn't responded. Its was all B-Rabbit vs Papa Doc, and Im still waiting for Zak or Nemesis to respond. But I know they wont, don't have a leg to stand on. I have tickets to the June event, not sure if I can make it or not. If that was EA's best effort to release footage of spactic animations with mocap, this game is gonna be another Live bargin bin filler. Its why the devs who work in a bubble, end up posting blogs not understanding the reactions to the game. Its sad man. Who is really gonna care about WNBA being in the game. That's just a ploy to try to get females gamer purchases. Not saying that it isn't a good idea to add new modes like that or Drew League, but if the game move like players trying to play basketball on skates and crutches, will any of those modes matter? This is Lives last game, calling it now. I may be wrong, but my gut says this it the end..

????? I've responded. I like Live 16. Don't have a problem with it. I'm excited for 18. Am I supposed to hate on something I don't hate?

I'm really confused man. Cool story tho.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[PVarck31]

There were things from the videos that didn't look good, but, in my personal opinion (if I'm allowed to have one) I thought some things did look good.

I am going to reserve my opinion until I see pure gameplay.

Some of the things WTF said that are gonna be in the game are very intriguing.

For our own sanity, before jumping off a cliff I would suggest that maybe wait until we see pure gameplay.

If it looks like garbage then fine, unload on EA. (constructively)

[FerdBrown]

Quote: Originally Posted by PVarck31

There were things from the videos that didn't look good, but, in my personal opinion (if I'm allowed to have one) I thought some things did look good. I am going to reserve my opinion until I see pure gameplay. Some of the things WTF said that are gonna be in the game are very intriguing. For our own sanity, before jumping off a cliff I would suggest that maybe wait until we see pure gameplay. If it looks like garbage then fine, unload on EA. (constructively)

Agree on all points. Hold judgment until we see the final product.

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kazin

noshun to answer question 3 in your previous post, "How can you have stiff movement and good gameplay?" Well, with today's technology there are limitations to the animation system. You either commit to a static animation which may look good but will be slower to break out of or lock you in entirely. OR have something more dynamic which can react quicker to player input but will result in the animation looking jerky. Spoiler What ISN'T acceptable is to have stiff animations in a marketing video, where they can use and abuse camera angles all day to make something look good. I have always liked this dude ThaLiveKing's Live videos on YouTube way more than what the EA marketing team puts out. And he is doing his with real game footage and not all the fancy marketing video tools the Live team owns. Anyway, I believe Live is committed to having the game "feel" right, and get the player in the right position facing the right angles and responding the way they should to inputs, and THEN making the animations fit that mold. The problem is, they've taken this approach and always failed to deliver on a strong gameplay experience, which is no bueno. This is their big push. You are right it may be the last Live if it doesn't sell. And even if it does sell, I think the deal 2K struck with the NBA for eSports really puts a modest size nail in Live's coffin. We'll see how that plays out though.

Then why is it that my favorite baseball games (Pro Yakyuu Spirits, Jikkyou Powerful Pros) has much more realistic animations, smoother animations, and better response to user input than MLB the Show? The throwing angle to first, second, third base, and home plate are different. If I wanted to break free from throwing to first base and instead throw to any other plate just for the sake of doing it despite it not being the correct play, the animation plays out realistically, smooth and response to user input is immediate.

My guess is the limitations are based on how many transitional animations the animators are willing to create. Pose A to Pose B. If the animator choose to take a shortcut and create a total of #3 transitions and call it a wrap, then that's what you're going to get. If the animator chooses to create a total of #10 potential transitional outcomes from Pose A to Pose B, then there will be greater variety.

But what's stopping the animators from creating a smooth realistic animation with just transition #1 from Pose A to Pose B.

To be a bit more specific, the players don't move with explosiveness when driving the paint is one major concern that I see with the trailer. The only realistic explosiveness captured was the Harden step back.

[FerdBrown]

Quote: Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake

Then why is it that my favorite baseball games (Pro Yakyuu Spirits, Jikkyou Powerful Pros) has much more realistic animations, smoother animations, and better response to user input than MLB the Show? The throwing angle to first, second, third base, and home plate are different. If I wanted to break free from throwing to first base and instead throw to any other plate just for the sake of doing it despite it not being the correct play, the animation plays out realistically, smooth and response to user input is immediate. My guess is the limitations are based on how many transitional animations the animators are willing to create. Pose A to Pose B. If the animator choose to take a shortcut and create a total of #3 transitions and call it a wrap, then that's what you're going to get. If the animator chooses to create a total of #10 potential transitional outcomes from Pose A to Pose B, then there will be greater variety. But what's stopping the animators from creating a smooth realistic animation with just transition #1 from Pose A to Pose B. To be a bit more specific, the players don't move with explosiveness when driving the paint is one major concern that I see with the trailer. The only realistic explosiveness captured was the Harden step back.

Ok. I admit I'm not a techie. I just buy a game I want to buy. I'm just a... consumer.

Salute to your technical expertise guys on how the game should he developed. I'm sorry I cannot add value to that discussion.

[noshun]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kazin

noshun to answer question 3 in your previous post, "How can you have stiff movement and good gameplay?" Well, with today's technology there are limitations to the animation system. You either commit to a static animation which may look good but will be slower to break out of or lock you in entirely. OR have something more dynamic which can react quicker to player input but will result in the animation looking jerky. What ISN'T acceptable is to have stiff animations in a marketing video, where they can use and abuse camera angles all day to make something look good. I have always liked this dude ThaLiveKing's Live videos on YouTube way more than what the EA marketing team puts out. And he is doing his with real game footage and not all the fancy marketing video tools the Live team owns. Anyway, I believe Live is committed to having the game "feel" right, and get the player in the right position facing the right angles and responding the way they should to inputs, and THEN making the animations fit that mold. The problem is, they've taken this approach and always failed to deliver on a strong gameplay experience, which is no bueno. This is their big push. You are right it may be the last Live if it doesn't sell. And even if it does sell, I think the deal 2K struck with the NBA for eSports really puts a modest size nail in Live's coffin. We'll see how that plays out though.

Quote: Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake

Then why is it that my favorite baseball games (Pro Yakyuu Spirits, Jikkyou Powerful Pros) has much more realistic animations, smoother animations, and better response to user input than MLB the Show? The throwing angle to first, second, third base, and home plate are different. If I wanted to break free from throwing to first base and instead throw to any other plate just for the sake of doing it despite it not being the correct play, the animation plays out realistically, smooth and response to user input is immediate. My guess is the limitations are based on how many transitional animations the animators are willing to create. Pose A to Pose B. If the animator choose to take a shortcut and create a total of #3 transitions and call it a wrap, then that's what you're going to get. If the animator chooses to create a total of #10 potential transitional outcomes from Pose A to Pose B, then there will be greater variety. But what's stopping the animators from creating a smooth realistic animation with just transition #1 from Pose A to Pose B. To be a bit more specific, the players don't move with explosiveness when driving the paint is one major concern that I see with the trailer. The only realistic explosiveness captured was the Harden step back.

I animate, so I know what you're referring too. There's 2 things to animation:


1. Keyframes
2. In-betweens


What EA does is allow you to trigger the next keyframe to a new animation instead of letting the inbetween play out. It creates a "popping" effect and looks bad.
For those that don't understand its the equivalent of taking a soft cover book and randomly putting 2 pieces of paper in the book and then flipping the pages with your thumb. When you view it and see the 2 papers, it looks out of place creating that pop you see.
That's what I see in that Harden step back, but Live devs thinks it looks amazing. 2 years off and they're still cutting corners on the animation end, then they're going to try to blend mocap with it. Disney, Pixar or any other studio that specializes in animation would've redone the animations completely, removed them, or let go of the animators. Its dispelling believable human movement..

[FerdBrown]

If you compare with Pixar, hands down and feet up their works are flawless. Though wondering if those same animation engines be used for games? It would look like a cinematic game. Which is also good.

[strawberryshortcake]

Quote: Originally Posted by noshun

I animate, so I know what you're referring too. There's 2 things to animation: 1. Keyframes 2. In-betweens What EA does is allow you to trigger the next keyframe to a new animation instead of letting the inbetween play out. It creates a "popping" effect and looks bad. Spoiler For those that don't understand its the equivalent of taking a soft cover book and randomly putting 2 pieces of paper in the book and then flipping the pages with your thumb. When you view it and see the 2 papers, it looks out of place creating that pop you see. That's what I see in that Harden step back, but Live devs thinks it looks amazing. 2 years off and they're still cutting corners on the animation end, then they're going to try to blend mocap with it. Disney, Pixar or any other studio that specializes in animation would've redone the animations completely, removed them, or let go of the animators. Its dispelling believable human movement..

Spoiler

Yes, those are the two words that completely slipped my mind ... key frames and in betweens.

Quote: Originally Posted by FerdBrown

If you compare with Pixar, hands down and feet up their works are flawless. Though wondering if those same animation engines be used for games? It would look like a cinematic game. Which is also good.

From my understanding, it really doesn't have anything to do with the "animation engine" so to speak. It all boils down to the animators themselves. How the animation plays out all stems from what the animators do.

Blender is a free 3D animation program, open source, for anyone to use. Maya is the professional version. Pixar uses their own proprietary 3D animation software but the fundamentals are all the same.

Run any 3d animated shorts on youtube and you can see the different level of quality, some very amateurish and some very professional looking ones.

The following three shorts are all done in Blender (completely free to download and use). Run a youtube search for other blender animated works.


Laundromat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drLdsOnh7nI&t=216s

Agent
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mN0zPOpADL4

Psychogenesis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzjQuFrlnU4