NBA Elite 11 Video: Kevin Durant, Brandon Jennings & Stephen Curry Talk New Controls

[kingpnp]

Quote: Originally Posted by rEAnimator

Oh believe me, I am not content with having poor animation quality, and neither is anyone else on the team. We are working extremely hard to improve those areas. Every time I see a glitch in one of the videos we release it is painful for me to watch, and I immediately want to get back to work and make the game better. I was posting my replies last night after midnight from work and I was not the only one here. And in between posts I was working on trying to make the defender feel less "floaty" when moving around. I am trying to be honest with you by not making promises about what the game will be, but rather be completely open about where the game is right now and what we're trying to accomplish before we ship the product. Please don't confuse my honestly with complacency. I'm not a marketing guy, I'm a programmer on the game. I'm not trying to spin things to make them sound good. I'm telling you the way it is. And despite some visual problems (that I hope we can address), I am extremely proud of what we've accomplished so far this year. The team has worked harder than anyone could have asked, and done more in one year of development than I've ever seen before. We took on an ambitious challenge, and we nailed the primary goal for the game which was to revolutionize the controls for basketball sim games and introduce a physical element to the game. And when I say revolutionize the controls, I mean that. When you try it you'll understand. This game is really good. Does that mean we won't be able to fix the visual problems? I don't know. I think we can, but it's not done yet so I can't say for sure. But what I can say is that I will be proud of the product when it is released, and I am very proud of the team that I'm on and the hard work we've put in to building this product. I hope you guys feel the same way when you try it.

Thanks for being honest.. but you have to understand what the other poster is saying. when you say "i will be proud of this game" after saying "I HOPE..we will be able to fix the graphical issues". it says that you had a goal? and that goal wasn't to make the BEST Sim ball game you could. it was to make the best Sim Controls you could. and there lies the problem. EA is #2 because they keep saying "we dont have enough time.." to do it all. thats nonsense.

i know you guys are on a schedule?probably on MS project with dealines as we speak lol. i'm a grown man with a job so i get it. But what you guys need to do is take a screen shot of this message. Tell your bosses to do two things. either put more man power into nba ELITE(live). OR give you more time. thats right, forger releasing it on the same day as 2k11. Release the game when you have BOTH parts right, graphics/animation AND control.

now when you say its hard to do both. it makes it seem like its not possible. I say yes it is. even when you're giving us total control. i know what you're trying to say.
for example, if i cross over but slightly have my right analog doing a semi circle where i dont do the complete circle its165 degrees instead of the full 180. then if you make that happen in the game. it may not look Real because players dont do that in real life. and i'm saying YES they do. they are just more polished players so they do it less often.
my point is this, if you guys have really nailed that control with how it looks(animations). then for people who dont know basketball and/or are new to these controls. they will look like 5 year old kids at the YMCA. weird moves, darn near travelling every play, double dribbling ect.
thats what happesn with Real Physics and real life movement. but the better you become the better you look. now you look like a middle school kid that likes hoop outside. then you look like a high school JV kid that knows a few things but still hasn't perfected that crossover move. you can cross over but you cant pull up quickly because you keep losing your dribble with your off hand(THIS IS REAL LIFE).

then you move up to varsity, now you know what you're doing but you can only do like 2 moves properly the rest are questionable looking. then you move up to college, then the pros. where you have master 4 moves, and are good to great at 4 other moves.
dont be afraid to let the game look bad when its bad players playing. let them realize this aint ya mamas nba live. this is NBA ELITE. now go back and get those animations together. NO STIFF animations PERIOD> no excuses. keep up the good work.

[rEAnimator]

Quote: Originally Posted by kingpnp

Thanks for being honest.. but you have to understand what the other poster is saying. when you say "i will be proud of this game" after saying "I HOPE..we will be able to fix the graphical issues". it says that you had a goal? and that goal wasn't to make the BEST Sim ball game you could. it was to make the best Sim Controls you could. and there lies the problem. EA is #2 because they keep saying "we dont have enough time.." to do it all. thats nonsense. i know you guys are on a schedule?probably on MS project with dealines as we speak lol. i'm a grown man with a job so i get it. But what you guys need to do is take a screen shot of this message. Tell your bosses to do two things. either put more man power into nba ELITE(live). OR give you more time. thats right, forger releasing it on the same day as 2k11. Release the game when you have BOTH parts right, graphics/animation AND control. now when you say its hard to do both. it makes it seem like its not possible. I say yes it is. even when you're giving us total control. i know what you're trying to say. for example, if i cross over but slightly have my right analog doing a semi circle where i dont do the complete circle its165 degrees instead of the full 180. then if you make that happen in the game. it may not look Real because players dont do that in real life. and i'm saying YES they do. they are just more polished players so they do it less often. my point is this, if you guys have really nailed that control with how it looks(animations). then for people who dont know basketball and/or are new to these controls. they will look like 5 year old kids at the YMCA. weird moves, darn near travelling every play, double dribbling ect. thats what happesn with Real Physics and real life movement. but the better you become the better you look. now you look like a middle school kid that likes hoop outside. then you look like a high school JV kid that knows a few things but still hasn't perfected that crossover move. you can cross over but you cant pull up quickly because you keep losing your dribble with your off hand(THIS IS REAL LIFE). then you move up to varsity, now you know what you're doing but you can only do like 2 moves properly the rest are questionable looking. then you move up to college, then the pros. where you have master 4 moves, and are good to great at 4 other moves. dont be afraid to let the game look bad when its bad players playing. let them realize this aint ya mamas nba live. this is NBA ELITE. now go back and get those animations together. NO STIFF animations PERIOD> no excuses. keep up the good work.

It's not so much the 165 degrees vs. 180 degrees. I agree with you 100% in your example. A real player could do that, and if that's what you do with your controller then it should be possible to make it look good. Completely agree with you.

Where it becomes more difficult is when you're dealing with responsiveness, not with capabilities.

In real life people can anticipate what they are about to do and prepare their bodies for it.

In video games, there is no way for the sim to tell that the user is anticipating doing a move.

Therefore you have two options:

1. Play a realistic animation that feel sluggish because it has the anticipation built into it

2. Cut the anticipation portion and play an animation with slightly unrealistic looking movement

The challenge is finding the right balance between those two to give the user the feeling that the player in the sim is reacting to their requests in a realistic and timely manner, and not sacrificing the realism so much that it looks bad or breaks the general rules of the sport.

There are further challenges when you break up the animations into different layers (arm vs. body vs. legs) to give the user the ability to do more than one thing at a time (which we do in Elite quite a bit).

The player being able to do more than one thing at a time is completely realistic, but by breaking it up into different layers for different parts of the body you lose some of the cohesiveness of the original animation, making it look "stiff" at times.

These are the challenges we face that Live didn't face, because live played canned animations. They would always look good, but they weren't dynamic, didn't respond well to user input, didn't respond to physics and you could only do one thing at a time.

I think what we've done makes the game play much better.

That's what I'm proud of.

Now we just need to clean up the visuals as much as possible. Some will be fixed, some won't because of time, and some won't because we're limited by memory or processing power.

Finally...you said to ask my boss for more time or more man power?

We did and they gave us both

So bosses, if you're reading this. Thanks!

Oh, and I made a long post in the physics thread about sim vs. arcade that I think you might find interesting if you haven't already read it.

We're definitely trying to make the best sim basketball game, but everyone has a different take on what sim really means.

Take a read and let me know what you think (in that thread). It's an interesting subject and I enjoy talking about it.

Thanks for the reply!

[thomonkey]

Quote: Originally Posted by rEAnimator

It's not so much the 165 degrees vs. 180 degrees. I agree with you 100% in your example. A real player could do that, and if that's what you do with your controller then it should be possible to make it look good. Completely agree with you. Where it becomes more difficult is when you're dealing with responsiveness, not with capabilities. In real life people can anticipate what they are about to do and prepare their bodies for it. In video games, there is no way for the sim to tell that the user is anticipating doing a move. Therefore you have two options: 1. Play a realistic animation that feel sluggish because it has the anticipation built into it 2. Cut the anticipation portion and play an animation with slightly unrealistic looking movement The challenge is finding the right balance between those two to give the user the feeling that the player in the sim is reacting to their requests in a realistic and timely manner, and not sacrificing the realism so much that it looks bad or breaks the general rules of the sport. There are further challenges when you break up the animations into different layers (arm vs. body vs. legs) to give the user the ability to do more than one thing at a time (which we do in Elite quite a bit). The player being able to do more than one thing at a time is completely realistic, but by breaking it up into different layers for different parts of the body you lose some of the cohesiveness of the original animation, making it look "stiff" at times. These are the challenges we face that Live didn't face, because live played canned animations. They would always look good, but they weren't dynamic, didn't respond well to user input, didn't respond to physics and you could only do one thing at a time. I think what we've done makes the game play much better. That's what I'm proud of. Now we just need to clean up the visuals as much as possible. Some will be fixed, some won't because of time, and some won't because we're limited by memory or processing power. Finally...you said to ask my boss for more time or more man power? We did and they gave us both So bosses, if you're reading this. Thanks! Oh, and I made a long post in the physics thread about sim vs. arcade that I think you might find interesting if you haven't already read it. We're definitely trying to make the best sim basketball game, but everyone has a different take on what sim really means. Take a read and let me know what you think (in that thread). It's an interesting subject and I enjoy talking about it. Thanks for the reply!

hey reanimator, i just wanted to mention that i am in full support of what you are guys are doing. I have no problem sacrificing pretty looking animations for more control. other basketball games have looked very pretty but the control is terrible. I think that in the great sports games like mlb 10, fifa, you definitely have some unrealistic looking movements but in the end you overlook it because the responsiveness and control is so much better. I always prefer gameplay over eye candy so please dont listen to anybody saying you should put in more animations/put more frames in to blending animations which will sacrifice control. I want to play a video game not watch a basketball game.

[rEAnimator]

Quote: Originally Posted by thomonkey

hey reanimator, i just wanted to mention that i am in full support of what you are guys are doing. I have no problem sacrificing pretty looking animations for more control. other basketball games have looked very pretty but the control is terrible. I think that in the great sports games like mlb 10, fifa, you definitely have some unrealistic looking movements but in the end you overlook it because the responsiveness and control is so much better. I always prefer gameplay over eye candy so please dont listen to anybody saying you should put in more animations/put more frames in to blending animations which will sacrifice control. I want to play a video game not watch a basketball game.

Thanks for telling me this. Good to hear

[randombrother]

Quote: Originally Posted by rEAnimator

In video games, there is no way for the sim to tell that the user is anticipating doing a move.

You know THIS is something I've thought about for years now with sports video games mainly because of online play. As it stands now online play will always be a bit flawed compared to offline gameplay. It's just the nature of the beast but I always thought about an "anticipation" feature that could be used to help that versus built-in cpu help.

For instance, you "charge' or "store" up an attempt to take a charge from your left because you're almost certain that the ball handler is going to try to drive right. This would be a sell out move because if you're wrong you'll look bad and get burned but if you're right then you'll stop the ball handler, slow'em down considerably or get the charge. Of course, I'll have to explain that this would be an OPTION, you could choose not to use it and just play regular D on your own if you feel that the other guy isn't worth the extra step or if you are uncertain to which way or what the ball handler is going to do that way the game plays as normal. Now this is all over simplified but I think you get the idea.

[The-BigGeorge]

I really want to play the demo for this!

[kingpnp]

Quote: Originally Posted by rEAnimator

It's not so much the 165 degrees vs. 180 degrees. I agree with you 100% in your example. A real player could do that, and if that's what you do with your controller then it should be possible to make it look good. Completely agree with you. Where it becomes more difficult is when you're dealing with responsiveness, not with capabilities. In real life people can anticipate what they are about to do and prepare their bodies for it. In video games, there is no way for the sim to tell that the user is anticipating doing a move. Therefore you have two options: 1. Play a realistic animation that feel sluggish because it has the anticipation built into it 2. Cut the anticipation portion and play an animation with slightly unrealistic looking movement The challenge is finding the right balance between those two to give the user the feeling that the player in the sim is reacting to their requests in a realistic and timely manner, and not sacrificing the realism so much that it looks bad or breaks the general rules of the sport. There are further challenges when you break up the animations into different layers (arm vs. body vs. legs) to give the user the ability to do more than one thing at a time (which we do in Elite quite a bit). The player being able to do more than one thing at a time is completely realistic, but by breaking it up into different layers for different parts of the body you lose some of the cohesiveness of the original animation, making it look "stiff" at times. These are the challenges we face that Live didn't face, because live played canned animations. They would always look good, but they weren't dynamic, didn't respond well to user input, didn't respond to physics and you could only do one thing at a time. I think what we've done makes the game play much better. That's what I'm proud of. Now we just need to clean up the visuals as much as possible. Some will be fixed, some won't because of time, and some won't because we're limited by memory or processing power. Finally...you said to ask my boss for more time or more man power? We did and they gave us both So bosses, if you're reading this. Thanks! Oh, and I made a long post in the physics thread about sim vs. arcade that I think you might find interesting if you haven't already read it. We're definitely trying to make the best sim basketball game, but everyone has a different take on what sim really means. Take a read and let me know what you think (in that thread). It's an interesting subject and I enjoy talking about it. Thanks for the reply!

good reply... hey when you say everyone has a different idea of SIM. thats true. but sim is sim.

people move to goal post to fit their style of play.

basically how a sim video game is supposed to work is this. I'm now kobe bryant . but here's the deal, just like the movie matrix i am downloaded all of his physical abilities and basketball skills.

here's the trick. what seperates nba players from one another? basketball IQ. nash isn't the fastest, quickess nor is he the biggest, strongest guy in the nba. but look at him. the guy knows when to shoot and when to pass, and when to go for the layup with the left, or with the right. he knows which way to pivot depending on where the defender(s) is. just like kobe.

the thing is if i'm kobe. its my decision where before it was kobe's or nash's. if i dont choose properly like they do. i wont be as good as they are (in my video game sim) as they are in real life. if I make the same mental decisions they make. i will play Identical to how they play in REal life. if i make better decisions. i will be a better player on the game then they are in real life. for instance remember gerald green(he's playing for the lakers SPL right now). doesn't have the hoop IQ that a nash or kobe has. but he has most of the skills and he's an insane athlete. lebronesk(minus the strength). you put my mind in gerald greens body. and its kobe time. thats REAL sim when you're speaking player for player.

NOW, team for team. real sim is the samet thing. not only is your mind in each player you switch to. its also in the coaches head now. larry brown wants to slow it down(boring..Lol, but it works) even with the bobcats a young team. why? to make for less possessions in a game and less chances for the opponent to score. which makes you THINK his teams are great at defense. when in reality they are slightly above average to good. not great. but if i'm larry running with the cats. i'm running like i'm Don nelson, but unlike nelson i'm playing decent defense like the bobcats in the halfcourt. here's the thing. if you run like a cheetah on offense. you cant play lockdown defense. there isn't enough air in your lungs to pull it off. you want proof. the phoenix suns, gstate warriors. you cant run like that and also have the gas to play defense. this is REAL SIM ball. that means even though i'm playing like a mix between two great coaches(one great offensive coach and one defensive). i still will have issues because REAL life = fatigue. now we're talking about showtime lakers. people think they use to run like the suns. not true. they ran when it was there(it was there more often because they had a 6'9 pg going to the glass to make them run. but i wasn't an illadvised chuck fest within 7 seconds. if they did that, they would not have been as good as they were on defense or in the half court on offense.

this is REAL SIM player for player and team for team.

i know some think SIm ball player for player = if i have kobe i want to make the same percentage of shots he would make from around the court. no matter my release of the shot, the defenders etc. and if i'm the (old suns). then i should be forced to play D"antoni basketball which will = high scoring games for my team.

here's the thing. SIM my way or sim there way can both be pulled off in a video game.

if you SIm it my way, their way will take care of itself.

here's how.

If your goal is to play sim my way you create a game where i have the ability to control the things i mentioned.

if your goal is to play like the player and/or like the team. fine. that means you have to know that player well enough to know what he would do under every circumstance. if you want to play like that team. you have to know what that team would do under every circumstance. if you know these things and use them in the game. it will produce a sim like game showing nash playing like nash and suns playing like suns. but here's the kicker. this doesn't mean you're going to win(this is what people dont get). it just means you can score like the suns have 10 assist games like nash. but it also means if you're playing the computer vs the wrong team(Lakers) or a friend that knows how to use the lakers properly(their size, kobe). the suns will score and run out of gas. wont play defense and they will watch the lakers score right back. the thing is. the lakers will get a few more stops in the end because due to their non over done offense or defense they have energy for both even late in the 4th. so dont get made when the lakers keep beating you(assuming the computer plays like the real lakers, or a friend knows how to play with them like their real life counterparts.

THis my friend is SIM HOOP.

Animations- this may be a processor thing.

but what you have to do is basically what 2k does. bring in the nba players you can, then bring in top level overseas guys or pro street ballers, college players that can mimic nba players moves. you capture those movements for as many players as you can get in there. you apply those moves to each player.

for instance if kobes bends over further then say lebron in real life. then make kobe bend more when you drive(hit up on the analog), so not only is the driving linked to your UP push of the analog. but the leaning motion is also Mapped to Kobe bryant when said controller is pushed UP.

thats how you write the code. IF, THEN statements. but with the physics added in. the animations are not just for show. they can change things in the game. if lebron dribbles higher on the game due to real life physics(he is tall). there's a higher chance of a quick hand defender(tony allen, ron artest, etc) tipping the ball. even if lebrons ball control/security stats are high. physics says he better not be dribbling in front of those guys as high as he's known to dribble. so the leaning of kobe, may mean he will squeeze by a defender vs lebron bumping into a defender and not carrying because he's so big. bumping the guy out of his position to an extent ala shaq back in his young days.

[©roke]

Quote: Originally Posted by thomonkey

hey reanimator, i just wanted to mention that i am in full support of what you are guys are doing. I have no problem sacrificing pretty looking animations for more control. other basketball games have looked very pretty but the control is terrible. I think that in the great sports games like mlb 10, fifa, you definitely have some unrealistic looking movements but in the end you overlook it because the responsiveness and control is so much better. I always prefer gameplay over eye candy so please dont listen to anybody saying you should put in more animations/put more frames in to blending animations which will sacrifice control. I want to play a video game not watch a basketball game.

Count me in. I don't know if i'm crazy or what, but I like what I'm seeing. I don't care if the net looks weird. I just love the idea of having this control at my disposal. I rather have control instead of good looking animations. They may be amazing, but if all I did was just press a button, I don't feel the challenge.

So keep up the good work!!