Why I'm Done With NBA Basketball This Year: NBA 2K9

[lasthour]

I think that the differences in perception for sports games come from the different levels of experience with the sport and game.

For example:

We all are not on the same level of understanding any sport. Therefore, real life being a Level 5, my understanding of the SPORT may be a Level 3 because of my experience with the sport. I may have played, coached a little, or I may just be very competitive in nature.

Someone else's point of view may be that they perceive themselves as being a Level 4 in understanding a sport because they are good at the GAME through practice and experience and some understanding of the sport.

Depending on individual opinions will result in confusing information, even though both side are sincere.

Ask yourself this, does the (videogame) give realistic stats, strategy, gameplay and make it fun when competing?

I think these type of games should learn lessons from games that have TIERS(SF4) and incorporate a similar style. That way, different teams can be competitive in their own style of play. The difference would come down to your skill level with a PARTICULAR team.

The game should be simple in design, yet somewhat deep in its execution of the different teams.

It may be confusing what I am trying to say, but I am trying to say it as simple as I can. Put the videogame back in the videogame!

[Benicio10]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

There is nothing to defend. There is no one with a pink name from 2k Sports actively replying to every single concern those on this board has. They are doing so in Live. Some will say EA needs to do it; To gain the trust back from their community. Either way, the point is they are including what you want and saying "Yeah man, that's a great idea" while 2k has, year after year, just put it in the game without reassuring you. There is a difference, and some of you don't see it. That about puts it in perspective, honestly. There are those that STILL say The Show is not a worthwhile sports game. It's truly sad.

Year after year the game has been a dunk-fest out of the box and guys like us here on OS have to revamp the game with slider fixes to try to prevent the user not from going for 50 4 times in a row with Kobe, but to stop him from getting 50 EVERY GAME in 5 min quarters.

Are they really listening? We've been crying for help defense. They put in a slider for it that doesn't even do anything.

We've been saying for years it's too easy to score in the paint. The online games are compromised because of this. We want realistic Points in the Paint. Realistic FG%'s, etc.

After months of slider testing and visiting 82games.com we get it "fixed" and then when the new year of NBA 2K comes out, we have to go back to the drawing board again because the series has not progressed towards realism.

This leads me to believe they aren't listening to the sim gamer, but have an objective to make the game fun for casuals out of the box (fake) and give us slider options to do the sim work for them. Not good business if you ask me.

And i think this design decision should be explained to the hardcore base more explicitly. Beluba today just posed that his #1 goal is to make Live the best sim out there.

Is it so hard to have 2K to have that kind of dialogue with us? Restore our confidence, because right now, it's dwindling away.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

You're starting to sound like Hillary Goldstein. Yes, that annoying little chick from IGN. He has the Shaq test... take Shaq and shoot threes with him all game and see how many fall. Here's the thing that bothers me... remember when Duncan hit the 3 pointer to send the game to OT in the playoffs? If that happened in your game, would you immediately come to OS and complain how it should NEVER happen? There should be the ability, in a sports game, for the "impossible" to happen. The problem is... who the hell shoots 3's with Shaq? What you're asking is for the impossible to always be impossible. Vince should never be able to catch a reverse dunk off an inbound alley to win the game. The NBA and sports gaming is about the impossible. The Rays shouldn't have made the World Series last year. Kobe shouldn't be dropping 50+ points on 4 consecutive games. It shouldn't happen in a game until it happens in real life. And that's where a lot of the comments of sports gamers really annoy me. Guys that play a game, then say "C'mon that would never happen!" but they see amazing things happen all the time. And if it does happen in real life, there's an explanation for it. "Well, we all saw this one coming." No, you didn't. It's more about what the game is doing wrong than what it allows you to do right. There's a group of gamers that modify sliders, rosters, whatever, all year long because so and so "isn't possible." It's THAT gamer that I would hope these game developers never cater to. And this has nothing to do with the high FG%'s out of the box in 2k9, the lack of foot planting by the defense, the lack of fast breaks in Live '09, the supposed comeback AI in The Show... it's about what "tests" a sports game should be able to pass. This isn't the GMAT. It seems like I'm getting too old for some of the posts by "gamers" here.

Exquisite post.

My question is, if you play the game in a sim manner and the game performs well and how a sim should, how is it not a sim?

This thread has strayed so far off the original topic, it's ridiculous. I think the passing system and the lack of defensive rotations are by far the two biggest issues in this game. Let's talk about that.

But instead, we're arguing about this obscure idea of what is "sim" and what is "arcade".

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by Benicio10

Year after year the game has been a dunk-fest out of the box and guys like us here on OS have to revamp the game with slider fixes to try to prevent the user not from going for 50 4 times in a row with Kobe, but to stop him from getting 50 EVERY GAME in 5 min quarters.

There aren't many games that you can't say that about.

Quote: Originally Posted by Benicio10

Are they really listening? We've been crying for help defense. They put in a slider for it that doesn't even do anything.

This is incorrect. In fact, someone posted videos in how the help defense slider works in the slider thread. It should be all the way to the left to induce help defense and all the way to the right to make your players stick to their man. He actually got blasted at first for saying it was "backwards."

Quote: Originally Posted by Benicio10

We've been saying for years it's too easy to score in the paint. The online games are compromised because of this. We want realistic Points in the Paint. Realistic FG%'s, etc.

I can agree with this, but it depends on what you're talking about. This is a problem here on the boards... as saying this as if it doesn't matter if it's vs. the computer or another player. Too many guys here buy a game and play by themselves... and that's where I think most of this outlash comes from. The guys that are enjoying the game are playing each other.

Quote: Originally Posted by Benicio10

After months of slider testing and visiting 82games.com we get it "fixed" and then when the new year of NBA 2K comes out, we have to go back to the drawing board again because the series has not progressed towards realism. This leads me to believe they aren't listening to the sim gamer, but have an objective to make the game fun for casuals out of the box (fake) and give us slider options to do the sim work for them. Not good business if you ask me.

Not good business? The series has sold the most it ever has?

Quote: Originally Posted by Benicio10

And i think this design decision should be explained to the hardcore base more explicitly. Beluba today just posed that his #1 goal is to make Live the best sim out there. Is it so hard to have 2K to have that kind of dialogue with us? Restore our confidence, because right now, it's dwindling away.

Are we back on this? Did you not read the comments on how anyone with any sort of sense would expect them to say that?

[Benicio10]

Pared, I play the game mostly against people and without heavy slider changes, you can easily score 90% of your buckets in the paint. There is no incentive to shoot a jumpshot because it becomes a lower % shot in a competitive game.

You'll say, "play people who play sim", and i'll tell you that I want the game to prevent the user from being rewarded for playing cheesy. If real teams could score 90% of their points in the paint they would too. But they score about 1/3 of their PIP because that's all they can get. That's why we edit sliders.

And I don't want to play a game where Kobe can average 2 points a minute. It's unrealistic and not fun at all. The game can be re-tuned by sliders to prevent a lot of cheese. So why don't they use that re-tuned game as the starting point for the following version? I'm starting to realize it's because they don't want to produce a sim, just like Madden under David Ortiz didn't want to be a sim, and just like NBA Live didn't want to until Mike Wang came. I group NBA 2K in that same boat now. The proof is in the the product.

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by Benicio10

Pared, I play the game mostly against people and without heavy slider changes, you can easily score 90% of your buckets in the paint. There is no incentive to shoot a jumpshot because it becomes a lower % shot in a competitive game. You'll say, "play people who play sim", and i'll tell you that I want the game to prevent the user from being rewarded for playing cheesy. If real teams could score 90% of their points in the paint they would too. But they score about 1/3 of their PIP because that's all they can get. That's why we edit sliders. And I don't want to play a game where Kobe can average 2 points a minute. It's unrealistic and not fun at all. The game can be re-tuned by sliders to prevent a lot of cheese. So why don't they use that re-tuned game as the starting point for the following version? I'm starting to realize it's because they don't want to produce a sim, just like Madden under David Ortiz didn't want to be a sim, and just like NBA Live didn't want to until Mike Wang came. I group NBA 2K in that same boat now. The proof is in the the product.

So why wouldn't you adjust the sliders?

They have a game that caters to the masses and they include 2kShare so you can take advantage of it. Why wouldn't you, especially since you can use them online?

I know what you're saying, but people are arguing about things they CAN change. If you want to argue the CPU plays a predictable offense, fine. That's a valid point, IMHO. But saying too many shots go in at a certain rate... and you can alter the sliders....

The argument a few years ago was "We need sliders to fix our game and get it to play the way we want."

Now, the argument is "We shouldn't have to use sliders."

I feel like I'm one of the few, having been such a big advocate of sliders, that can honestly say this sort of backwards thinking is something I can't grasp. We don't discuss the hardcore issues in this game half the time. It's typically something you can change yourself but people have no will to do so. They can come here, make 23 posts in a thread they created arguing their stance... but they can't actually spend that time looking for a solution.

[totalownership]

Quote: Originally Posted by Joey P

Somehow I always find myself jumping outta my seat, still, when a great play happens or a Rose dunk thru traffic with the DIT at 35, on Pro.

So in otherwords you pretty much play the game standing up the whole time?

[Benicio10]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

So why wouldn't you adjust the sliders? They have a game that caters to the masses and they include 2kShare so you can take advantage of it. Why wouldn't you, especially since you can use them online? I know what you're saying, but people are arguing about things they CAN change. If you want to argue the CPU plays a predictable offense, fine. That's a valid point, IMHO. But saying too many shots go in at a certain rate... and you can alter the sliders.... The argument a few years ago was "We need sliders to fix our game and get it to play the way we want." Now, the argument is "We shouldn't have to use sliders." I feel like I'm one of the few, having been such a big advocate of sliders, that can honestly say this sort of backwards thinking is something I can't grasp. We don't discuss the hardcore issues in this game half the time. It's typically something you can change yourself but people have no will to do so. They can come here, make 23 posts in a thread they created arguing their stance... but they can't actually spend that time looking for a solution.

Pared,

I know you've taken a look at my slider threads in the past. I DO take the time to fix these things, but it's tiring and time consuming. Believe me. And by the time you kind of get it down it's All Star break already.

And it's not encouraging at all when the following year the next iteration comes out with the same identified issues from the prior year.

Here's what I'm trying to get across ...

The fact that the user base tunes the game towards sim, and 2K fails to ignore the idea of tuning theirs towards sim means it's a design decision to keep the game fake.

And at this age, and this stage of my life with limited time to print out shot charts and spreadsheets from 82games.com and and box scores laying all over my table to try to get the game to replicate real NBA, it's just not worth it.

It's refreshing to see groups of developers like Ian's Madden team and Mike Wang's Live team and of course, The Show, provide us with the re-assurance that they are at least TRYING to duplicate their real respective sports.

You feel me right, Pared? I respect your opinion or I wouldn't engage in this discussion. Peace!