APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

[spankdatazz22]

I do think the legends add a known personality to the game. With only generics, the average person isn't going to identify with any player or team - if they're all randoms. Most people know Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Nighttrain Lane, etc. and know their abilities off the bat. I would think having full/near-full customization for the generics while retaining the legends would be ideal. I would think they shouldn't have the legends at their current ages, as some of them look way too old to be putting on helmets. Have them look as they did during their playing days

[CPRoark]

Quote: Originally Posted by Valdarez

Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves. I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story. A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League...I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.

As I said to another poster, I knew going in that the "football gods" concept would be hit or miss with some people. It was simply a way to include the legends (which probably wouldn't have been dropped for 2K9...it was their "thing") in a mode that would add some legitimate longevity.

The argument whether to include legends or not is a valid one, but wasn't the point of my article. I like your idea of a fictional league, and that's what is meant by "context." I'm not sure I have the time or desire to read a 20 page dissertation on APF, but I certainly applaud your dedication. I wouldn't take it personally that 2K "ignored" it...most companies do not accept or even read unsolicited ideas. If they even adopted part of your tome, would you expect any kind of acknowledgment or reimbursement? Probably, as would any other armchair developer who sends in ideas. Now 2K, instead of spending money on a game, is passing it out to amateur developers or--more realistically--litigation fees to combat those who are looking for their cut.

Finally, before you make claims of plagiarism, please have evidence. I'm sure that my writing is influenced, much like your 20 page report, by what is said in the forums. In fact, I come out and recognize in some areas what the community's wishes are. However, your insinuation that I used "copy/paste" is without basis and egregious. I can't imagine OS would keep writers around who need to stoop to cannibalizing its own readership. Besides, have you seen the spelling/grammar in a large portion of the posts on here?

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by CPRoark

I like your idea of a fictional league, and that's what is meant by "context." I'm not sure I have the time or desire to read a 20 page dissertation on APF, but I certainly applaud your dedication. I wouldn't take it personally that 2K "ignored" it...most companies do not accept or even read unsolicited ideas. If they even adopted part of your tome, would you expect any kind of acknowledgment or reimbursement? Probably, as would any other armchair developer who sends in ideas. Now 2K, instead of spending money on a game, is passing it out to amateur developers or--more realistically--litigation fees to combat those who are looking for their cut.

Realize I'm a professional software developer (Enterprise Software Architect) who is used to pouring of software documents as well as producing them. Right now I'm considering moving into product management (a bit of change / more business focused than technical) and have been spending a lot of time reading / producing BRDs (business requirement documents) as well as PRD (product requirement documents). The tome you referred to was very well written, broken down into distinct categories with justifications for each feature. One of the guys at 2K Sports said it was the better than anything they had seen internally. Now, he could have just been trying to make me feel good, if so, it worked, but it wasn't just a list of 'add this please'. Someone did look at the document, I just never received any official feedback on it, which was disappointing after all the work. The only feedback I got was from my contact, and I was hoping to have at least an email conversation with one of the developers or the producers so I could publish it on the 2K Football Strategy website and provide the fans of the game a little bit of info.

The document was culmination of fan requests, coupled with other new features that I had thought of myself (not from the forums). That was my only take away from the article. Other than the Football Gods approach, there wasn't really any new thinking in the article, and, unfortunately, the Football Gods approach doesn't really fit in with the sports genre all that well.

Quote: Originally Posted by CPRoark

Finally, before you make claims of plagiarism, please have evidence. I'm sure that my writing is influenced, much like your 20 page report, by what is said in the forums. In fact, I come out and recognize in some areas what the community's wishes are. However, your insinuation that I used "copy/paste" is without basis and egregious. I can't imagine OS would keep writers around who need to stoop to cannibalizing its own readership. Besides, have you seen the spelling/grammar in a large portion of the posts on here?

Please don't tell me something I said is without basis, when you haven't even asked for evidence, that's extremely rude. A simple, 'no I didn't copy/paste', and 'you must be confused, can you provide evidence' would have sufficed. I'm not going to take the time to post something if there's not a basis for it. Perhaps the wording that I used was a little strong, but I have seen the same thing several times in the forums (which doesn't necessarily mean the OS forums), and, this again, goes along with no new ideas in the article theme which was my main observation.

From the 2K Sports Forums
http://2ksports.com/forums/showthrea...=178425&page=4

Quote:

I swear I spend more time editing my team in APF than I do playing the game.

Your Quote

Quote:

During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game.

So, you're right, it's not copy and pasted, but it's roughly the same idea, which is the point I was really trying to get across. Sorry if you took it as an attack on your ethics, it wasn't meant to be that way.

I run the www.2kfootballstrategy.com website and I'm mod over at the 2ksports.com forums, so I read a TON of posts about APF, which is why I tried to indicate that 'from my viewpoint', which is going to be a lot more diverse than your average reader.

On a bright note, it is good to see any 2K Football themed article on OS after the slew of EA related ones, and the article is very well written.

[CPRoark]

I didn't mean to sound as if your 20 page idea write-up was worthless or without merit, and it sounds as if you have the experience to create something that's meaningful. I read the "basically ignored" phrase as a bitter fan who dreamed up something as wild as my "football gods" idea and then was upset when 2K passed. This doesn't seem to be the case, and as always, it's hard to infer meaning behind text posts. I was honest that I don't have time to read 20 pages, but I'm certain that you could intrigue me with a basic summary.

Your statement about cut and paste did seem to be an attack on my credibility and honesty, but again, it's hard to read intent behind words. If you notice, I did ask for evidence before bringing down the hammer of "egregiousness." I suppose, as a writer, I am a little sensitive about such claims. It's now "water under the bridge" as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, I recognize that nothing but the football gods idea was earth shatteringly new. My approach was to look at what could have been done to improve this game without a complete overhaul, i.e. building on what was already there. I personally don't mind the legends if they are used in a more creative manner. I didn't go about writing the article with the thought of building my own "ultimate" football game; the foundation of APF still had to be there. To me, the biggest theme of APF was the legends; I wasn't going to scrap that in favor of a dream game.

I think that ultimately, we want APF or 2K5 or whatever, simply because its an alternative to Madden. However, fans aren't going to accept it without substance, whether its football gods or fictitious leagues.

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by CPRoark

I think that ultimately, we want APF or 2K5 or whatever, simply because its an alternative to Madden. However, fans aren't going to accept it without substance, whether its football gods or fictitious leagues.

I agree with the substance part, but not the alternative to Madden.

2K Sports continues to provide the better game play, and the most realistic football simulation experience. For die hard gamers, it really gets down to those two things, and it's those two items that Madden has failed to deliver on year, after year, after year. Nearly 5 years after APF2K5 and Madden's producers are claiming they still can't match what Visual Concepts has done in various areas of the game.

The game must have substance though, and yes, Franchise support. The thought of having a tiered system for players, and taking a player from scrub level to Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum level needs to be better thought out and incorporated into the game plan.

I really enjoyed Blitz the leagues take on their game, with the story backdrops, and intro's to the football games. It was well done, and somewhat story driven. This needs to be the hook for the next rev of the football game. Story driven, based on dynamic events with random players and team interactions as the story drivers, and yes, some type of broad casting mixed heavily throughout the season to raise the presentation / broadcast level of the game.

With the cost of license exclusivity, and even the high cost of the NFL Legends they signed, making a game that way diverts a lot of resources from development to content. If you're going to make a game, why pay for content, when you can get it for free?

I'll have a website (yes, full website made from Mind Manager, so nothing fancy, but traversable and well laid out) and an article to walk through many of the ideas that I harvested from the forums, laced with my own take up here in a couple of weeks, so you can throw stones at it.

[Blzer]

Who typed this? I don't mean to not be on the topic at hand, but "could of" instead of "could have?" And the other announcer is Peter, not Keith.

But yes, APF 2K9 really could have been special.

[asu666]

I miss you 2K Football!! '''''

[stead21]

Quote: Originally Posted by asu666

APF 2K10 needs to drop the Legends and all ties to the NFL. 2K should release the best playing football game on the market and turn the presentation up to a ten like they did on 2K5. Without the Legends or an official TV partner, the game with be a lot cheaper to make and they can focus on a stadium creator, franchise mode option (league options), player editor/ creator, and file sharing. 2K only needs to build the best playing game and let the community edit it and share the files. Cheap to make and easy to love.

The idea that your bringing to that table is not a bad at all. I mean the great basketball game ever in my opinion is not NBA 2K, but Run N Gun 2 for the arcade. That game has zero real NBA players. But in regards to APF 2K8, I love the aspect of old school players, that I watched growing up and playing with them on APF 2K8! I think this game could really go to the next level especially looking at the aspect of how players get inducted into the hall of fame and just the large number of outstanding football players from back in the day. I mean you have players like Bo Jackson and Jim Brown that didn't make the cut, but still can make it in future 2K games.