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Why I'm Done With NBA Basketball This Year: NBA Live 09

For some die-hard basketball fans, choosing between NBA Live and NBA 2K this year was like going to a used-car lot and trying to decide if you wanted a refurbished Pinto or a beat-up Camry.

On the one hand, there is the familiar 2K engine, which has problems that have been compounded over the years because its owners have spent all their money adding frivolous features like a sleek spoiler, custom wheels and a lavish paint job, all while refusing to take the car in for the necessary maintenance on the parts that really matter: the engine, the brakes and the transmission, etc.

In the lot across the street sits an ugly looking Ford Pinto, with a rusting exterior, a broken passenger-side door handle and a non-functional air-conditioning unit. But since it just had its engine and transmission replaced, the Pinto runs well, and unlike the souped-up Camry, it will not leave you kicking it in its chrome-plated tires as it is lying dead on the side of the road with a pile of smoke rising from its engine -- though it may still explode if hit in the wrong spot.

Such is the state of this year’s basketball games: One is in dire need of an interior makeover (2K), while the other (Live) might be all right to use in a pinch but still needs a lot of exterior work before it is ready to become an "every day" type of car.

So, here are the key areas that the Live developers need to work on in the offseason if they want their game to earn a spot in the starting five of the 2010 lineup of sports games.

On Offense


Passing and Dribbling

Like 2K, a lot of Live’s offensive problems come from not having a firm grasp of two of the sport’s fundamental techniques: passing and dribbling.

Both games’ passing systems can be described as slow, floaty and cumbersome, but what really makes Live’s system the worse of the two systems is the fact that it allows players to make ridiculous, full-court "baseball passes." The baseball pass is frequently exploited in online play because players are able to collect a defensive rebound under the goal, then immediately launch the ball 90 feet up the court right into the hands of a streaking guard.

On the other hand, dribbling is something that, honestly, has not been accurately captured in any basketball game to date. Instead of feeling quick, responsive and natural, both basketball franchises have struggled to find a dribbling system that gives the ball handler a wealth of moves while also avoiding the loss-of-control factor that comes into play every time an animation for a "special move" is triggered.

Play Calling and Floor Spacing

To Live’s credit, its play calling system is leagues better than the mess that is included in NBA 2K9 because it gives the user multiple options during each step of the play and does not immediately break the play off if the ball handler moves an inch or two away from the magic spot.

Live's pick-and-roll plays, a staple of the NBA game, are also a step ahead of 2K's, as Live gives users complete control over when they want the picker to release, and whether they want the picker to roll to the basket or pop outside for a jump shot.

Live falls behind 2K, however, in the player-spacing department during offensive sets. While it is awesome to see Live’s players spot up in their "hot spots" on the offensive end of the court, it is mind boggling how often the perimeter players will spot up right on the 3-point line instead of setting up in their proper position a half-step behind it.

Corrections to these types of simple fundamentals could easily vault Live past 2K in 2010 because Live, despite its limitations, easily has the better offensive style.



What's wrong with this clip? NBA 2K9's not alone, traveling exploits exist in NBA Live, too. Here, Stephen Jackson uses an exploit in the pump-fake animation to inch his way closer to the basket -- despite the fact that he moves his left pivot foot.

On Defense


Defending on the Ball

The helplessness one feels on the defensive end of the court in NBA Live 09 is not all that dissimilar from what happens in NBA 2K9.

But while 2K's problems stem from major clipping, sliding and traveling issues, Live’s defensive problems are much simpler: The analog stick is simply not sufficient enough when trying to stay in front of an offensive player.

The only way players can get into a defensive stance in NBA Live is to press the analog stick towards their man, which places the defender right up on top of the ball handler.

As any basketball player would know, this is essentially an invitation for the offensive player to blow right by the defender. And in Live, that is exactly what happens all game long.

Essentially, the only way to keep a ball handler from blowing by your defender in NBA Live is to try to take a charge, and obviously, that is not an acceptable solution to a major defensive issue.

On-ball defense is a problem that must be fixed in '10 if Live wants to avoid frustrating its users on the defensive end of the court.



What's wrong with this clip? Three Grizzlies defenders stand around and stare into space as Russell Westbrook slides and clips his way through them, teleports a pass through the defensive crowd, then completes the assist to Nenad Krstic for a ridiculous reverse layup.

Rebounding and Rim Physics

Quite frankly, with the way the ball interacts with the rims in NBA Live 09, one has to wonder if the ball being used is a metal pinball rather than a basketball.

The crazy bounces, spins and rolls that occur once the ball hits the rim only makes it that much harder for players to rebound, which is Live’s other major issue on defense.

Live’s box-outs never seem to trigger with any sort of consistency. On the rare occasion that they do, it is still not a guaranteed rebound given how wildly the ball will bounce around on missed shots, and how often the ball becomes mysteriously untouchable for defensive players.



What's wrong with this clip? Hakim Warrick forces a missed shot from Jeff Green, only to have Warrick, O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay miss the rebound as it rolls to floor, gets sucked into Jeff Green's tractor beam and results in an unwarranted trip to the free-throw line for Green and his magic suction hands.

Sliding and Clipping

While it is nice that EA has put some basic defensive sliding animations into its game, defenders too often get locked into sliding around the court when they should be turning around and sprinting.

What Live needs is a button (maybe one of the triggers) that the user can hold down to stay in a sliding, defensive stance, then release when the user needs to stand up and move freely.

Point is, trying to automate these things for the user does not work in NBA Live 09 and tends to make defense consistently frustrating.

Lastly, clipping, while not as big of an issue as it is in NBA 2K9, still exists to some degree in NBA Live 09. Moving forward, clipping needs to be cut out of the game as much as possible to keep users from getting annoyed when they do everything right on the defensive end only to see the ball go right through their players’ hands/bodies and into the net for an easy basket.




What's wrong with this clip? Mike Conley shows how illogical the game's on-ball defense system is as he gets sucked out of bounds and out of position by Russell Westbrook's baseline drive. Marc Gasol seems to recover and make a clean block on the play -- only to have the ball clip right through his hand.

What’s a Basketball Fan to Do Now That March Madness Is Here?


With both NBA games needing to put in some serious work this summer before they can earn a start in many gamers’ starting lineups next fall, a lot of hoops fans have been left wondering where they should go for their basketball fix during March Madness.

The solution just might be the genre’s cagey veteran, College Hoops 2K8. Thanks to the efforts of the Operation Sports community, two sets of tournament-ready rosters are now online, just waiting to be downloaded and enjoyed.

And though it may be a few years behind the '09 basketball games in terms of animations and player models, College Hoops 2K8 is the only basketball game out there right now that actually leaves many users feeling like they are only fighting their opponents on the court, not the game’s brain-dead A.I., ridiculous animations or unresponsive controls.


NBA Live 09 Videos
Member Comments
# 61 chrome381 @ 03/30/09 10:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iadf
nba 2k9 is my favourite basketball game period. im surprised at all the dislike on it. it just looks and feels so real(so many animations). i wont play live until it gets a unanimous vote as the better game. until then ill take my chances with 2k for the future since i haven't been disappointed in the last two games from them. good write up
Brace yourself, a storm is coming
 
# 62 eDotd @ 03/30/09 10:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iadf
nba 2k9 is my favourite basketball game period. im surprised at all the dislike on it. it just looks and feels so real(so many animations). i wont play live until it gets a unanimous vote as the better game. until then ill take my chances with 2k for the future since i haven't been disappointed in the last two games from them. good write up
Do people not have a mind of their own?
 
# 63 Pared @ 03/31/09 12:16 PM
The evolving Live DNA is great for individual players. I really like how it works for rookies.

A great feature that is certainly moving the genre forward. Can't wait for next year's games.
 
# 64 DaWolf @ 03/31/09 05:37 PM
Its all about the animations this year. I have the feeling that from year to year NBA 2K is taking away more and more control over the game from me. Its all so automatic, no user control on many things. But man, the anuimations are just so great that you go back to it again and again.
 
# 65 antony24 @ 04/02/09 06:23 PM
NBA Live 365 sucks. They made Dwight Howard unstoppable, making everything as long as you are inside the 3pt line, and rashard lewis makes it anywhere on the court. they need to fix this big time. in the nba you can't just get the inbound pass and chuck it down court to the center every time and get an easy lay in or dunk because the other players will come over and stop it, in this game however you can just throw it to anyone and run around people to the hoop. it's terrible.
 
# 66 sandman0823 @ 04/10/09 05:46 PM
Listen, some people may call me crazy for saying this but i feel that live is slightly better than 2k this year. i have been playing 2k9 since its release in october to only just master the game after i've been playing day in and day out for the past 8 months now. i had to adjust the sliders to do so. i love the game to only find that i was caught up in the hype and allure of what everyone felt was the better bball game this year. i just recently picked up live because i was not complete with 2k i was missing something. live is very rough around the edges i have even seen an actual double dribble in the game but for some reason i enjoy it more than 2k. i feel live is a better sim than 2k. 2k feels very arcade like this year and i think alot of folks love this game becasue it is to cheese in 2k which is why the traffic is so high in the 2k insider forum. cats wants boosts for players they use when playing online that is unrealistic to me. live got it right, everything was based on stats and true tendacies not some geek sitting at home acting as the basketball god determining who deserves boosts or not. ea is definitely moving in the right direction and with the hire of the cat from 2k i think they will take over next years bball war.
 
# 67 jaosming @ 04/11/09 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by antony24
NBA Live 365 sucks. They made Dwight Howard unstoppable, making everything as long as you are inside the 3pt line, and rashard lewis makes it anywhere on the court. they need to fix this big time. in the nba you can't just get the inbound pass and chuck it down court to the center every time and get an easy lay in or dunk because the other players will come over and stop it, in this game however you can just throw it to anyone and run around people to the hoop. it's terrible.

it's an exploit that happens in 2k as well


Fix: Don't do it.


Online Fix:
 
# 68 Sluggo @ 04/11/09 09:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaosming
it's an exploit that happens in 2k as well


Fix: Don't do it.


Online Fix:
it happens online in every game i've played
It's dumb. You can't even really do full court press because the game pushes you out of the passing lane after a basket. The on the ball D suffers cause the man you're guarding can suck another player into their animation leaving somebody else wide open. Don't get me started on the fundamentals of the game i.e. shooting and rebounding. I thought I would Live a shot after 2K8 was just awful. Both 2K9 and Live were below expectations.
 
# 69 bigdfan76 @ 04/12/09 06:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman0823
Listen, some people may call me crazy for saying this but i feel that live is slightly better than 2k this year. i have been playing 2k9 since its release in october to only just master the game after i've been playing day in and day out for the past 8 months now. i had to adjust the sliders to do so. i love the game to only find that i was caught up in the hype and allure of what everyone felt was the better bball game this year. i just recently picked up live because i was not complete with 2k i was missing something. live is very rough around the edges i have even seen an actual double dribble in the game but for some reason i enjoy it more than 2k. i feel live is a better sim than 2k. 2k feels very arcade like this year and i think alot of folks love this game becasue it is to cheese in 2k which is why the traffic is so high in the 2k insider forum. cats wants boosts for players they use when playing online that is unrealistic to me. live got it right, everything was based on stats and true tendacies not some geek sitting at home acting as the basketball god determining who deserves boosts or not. ea is definitely moving in the right direction and with the hire of the cat from 2k i think they will take over next years bball war.
Ok so I have been a NBA Live fan my whole life! Seriously since bulls vs blazers days(which is the beginning I believe, bulls vs lakers? anyway) I ran into the IR lock problem with my particular file for Live 09 and I said screw it. I was frustrated that someone like Kobe got hurt and would miss the entire year(healthy!). I bought 2k for the first time. I REALLY like it. I hated getting used to the isomotion bs but the dynasty/association mode is MUCH MUCH MUCH better. Not to mention the fact that if the cpu's players got hurt they would not stay on the IR indefinatly. It made me disscover what 2k fans have been into for years. So now please inform me. They have fixed this stupid IR glitch that was in place for the on line cheesers? And they have a new guy on board from 2k? I REALLY hope this guy fixes the dynasty because it blows compared to 2k, quite frankly. I would rather play the EA version of any sports game but as far as basketball goes this year, 2k was the lesser of 2 evils and I am thouroughly enjoying it. But now I'm hitting a wall after starting over several times with my Spurs association. Now quite honestly I'm really looking forward to Madden 10, and hopefully EA and NBA live can make my loyalty worth it.
 
# 70 solutions @ 04/12/09 10:35 AM
I hear you bigdfan. I was really enjoying my dynasty but I was wondering why my guys weren't getting hurt. So I came in here hoping it wasn't a bug like that none of my guys get hurt well I found out something much worse and that is of course that guys don't come back from IR. So I am playing with injuries off now but I'm missing quite a few stars. I just don't know how they could miss that
 
# 71 Behindshadows @ 04/12/09 09:55 PM
Is this a PS3 bug or something, because I've had numerous players on my team get hurt and come back and get placed back into lineup and I have 360. What am I missing here? Because I'm obviously not getting this same issue.
 
# 72 bigdfan76 @ 04/13/09 02:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behindshadows
Is this a PS3 bug or something, because I've had numerous players on my team get hurt and come back and get placed back into lineup and I have 360. What am I missing here? Because I'm obviously not getting this same issue.
Not human/user controlled teams, the cpu teams. I always run with the Spurs, for example, Kobe goes down with a bad twisted ankle for 2 weeks and the cpu Lakers move him to the IR and move some bench warmer up off of IR. Then when he would heal he would stay there, unless the Lakers experience several more injuries which would "push" Kobe back into the starting line up. I'm sure others have experienced it also, check the other teams stats and check games played for instance. I can't remember who it was one time when I simmed to see if it was true and I think Amare had played 15 games at the end of the regular season with something dumb like a twisted ankle. I got fed up and bought 2k.
 
# 73 Behindshadows @ 05/28/09 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdfan76
Not human/user controlled teams, the cpu teams. I always run with the Spurs, for example, Kobe goes down with a bad twisted ankle for 2 weeks and the cpu Lakers move him to the IR and move some bench warmer up off of IR. Then when he would heal he would stay there, unless the Lakers experience several more injuries which would "push" Kobe back into the starting line up. I'm sure others have experienced it also, check the other teams stats and check games played for instance. I can't remember who it was one time when I simmed to see if it was true and I think Amare had played 15 games at the end of the regular season with something dumb like a twisted ankle. I got fed up and bought 2k.
oh ok! I gotcha, I noticed on the injury list sometimes it will still show them as being out, but you are scheduled to play their team. They will be in the lineup as normal. Weird. Yeah this will definitely have to be addressed and fixed in 10!
 
# 74 NINJAK2 @ 05/29/09 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Da_Czar
shadows the rebounding is broken there is no covering that up bro also the locomotion is bad man real bad. this game has a lot going for it but to overlook what is bad in the name of uplifting the series helps no one. The animations and bad locomotion bad passing. Horrible rim physics, suction defense and scrawny player models in addition to the severly limited animations all together after playing for a few months can make this game unplayable. not that it is a bad game. if you want to like it there is certainly enough there to do that but there just isn't enough there currently to make the game as good as you seem to claim.


Remember I actually like live 09 for the potential it shows but that doesn't mean its great in its current state. I do think live 10 will be exceptional but a year away from genius.
Great post Da Czar
 


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