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Why I'm Done With NBA Basketball This Year: NBA Live 09

For some die-hard basketball fans, choosing between NBA Live and NBA 2K this year was like going to a used-car lot and trying to decide if you wanted a refurbished Pinto or a beat-up Camry.

On the one hand, there is the familiar 2K engine, which has problems that have been compounded over the years because its owners have spent all their money adding frivolous features like a sleek spoiler, custom wheels and a lavish paint job, all while refusing to take the car in for the necessary maintenance on the parts that really matter: the engine, the brakes and the transmission, etc.

In the lot across the street sits an ugly looking Ford Pinto, with a rusting exterior, a broken passenger-side door handle and a non-functional air-conditioning unit. But since it just had its engine and transmission replaced, the Pinto runs well, and unlike the souped-up Camry, it will not leave you kicking it in its chrome-plated tires as it is lying dead on the side of the road with a pile of smoke rising from its engine -- though it may still explode if hit in the wrong spot.

Such is the state of this year’s basketball games: One is in dire need of an interior makeover (2K), while the other (Live) might be all right to use in a pinch but still needs a lot of exterior work before it is ready to become an "every day" type of car.

So, here are the key areas that the Live developers need to work on in the offseason if they want their game to earn a spot in the starting five of the 2010 lineup of sports games.

On Offense


Passing and Dribbling

Like 2K, a lot of Live’s offensive problems come from not having a firm grasp of two of the sport’s fundamental techniques: passing and dribbling.

Both games’ passing systems can be described as slow, floaty and cumbersome, but what really makes Live’s system the worse of the two systems is the fact that it allows players to make ridiculous, full-court "baseball passes." The baseball pass is frequently exploited in online play because players are able to collect a defensive rebound under the goal, then immediately launch the ball 90 feet up the court right into the hands of a streaking guard.

On the other hand, dribbling is something that, honestly, has not been accurately captured in any basketball game to date. Instead of feeling quick, responsive and natural, both basketball franchises have struggled to find a dribbling system that gives the ball handler a wealth of moves while also avoiding the loss-of-control factor that comes into play every time an animation for a "special move" is triggered.

Play Calling and Floor Spacing

To Live’s credit, its play calling system is leagues better than the mess that is included in NBA 2K9 because it gives the user multiple options during each step of the play and does not immediately break the play off if the ball handler moves an inch or two away from the magic spot.

Live's pick-and-roll plays, a staple of the NBA game, are also a step ahead of 2K's, as Live gives users complete control over when they want the picker to release, and whether they want the picker to roll to the basket or pop outside for a jump shot.

Live falls behind 2K, however, in the player-spacing department during offensive sets. While it is awesome to see Live’s players spot up in their "hot spots" on the offensive end of the court, it is mind boggling how often the perimeter players will spot up right on the 3-point line instead of setting up in their proper position a half-step behind it.

Corrections to these types of simple fundamentals could easily vault Live past 2K in 2010 because Live, despite its limitations, easily has the better offensive style.



What's wrong with this clip? NBA 2K9's not alone, traveling exploits exist in NBA Live, too. Here, Stephen Jackson uses an exploit in the pump-fake animation to inch his way closer to the basket -- despite the fact that he moves his left pivot foot.

On Defense


Defending on the Ball

The helplessness one feels on the defensive end of the court in NBA Live 09 is not all that dissimilar from what happens in NBA 2K9.

But while 2K's problems stem from major clipping, sliding and traveling issues, Live’s defensive problems are much simpler: The analog stick is simply not sufficient enough when trying to stay in front of an offensive player.

The only way players can get into a defensive stance in NBA Live is to press the analog stick towards their man, which places the defender right up on top of the ball handler.

As any basketball player would know, this is essentially an invitation for the offensive player to blow right by the defender. And in Live, that is exactly what happens all game long.

Essentially, the only way to keep a ball handler from blowing by your defender in NBA Live is to try to take a charge, and obviously, that is not an acceptable solution to a major defensive issue.

On-ball defense is a problem that must be fixed in '10 if Live wants to avoid frustrating its users on the defensive end of the court.



What's wrong with this clip? Three Grizzlies defenders stand around and stare into space as Russell Westbrook slides and clips his way through them, teleports a pass through the defensive crowd, then completes the assist to Nenad Krstic for a ridiculous reverse layup.

Rebounding and Rim Physics

Quite frankly, with the way the ball interacts with the rims in NBA Live 09, one has to wonder if the ball being used is a metal pinball rather than a basketball.

The crazy bounces, spins and rolls that occur once the ball hits the rim only makes it that much harder for players to rebound, which is Live’s other major issue on defense.

Live’s box-outs never seem to trigger with any sort of consistency. On the rare occasion that they do, it is still not a guaranteed rebound given how wildly the ball will bounce around on missed shots, and how often the ball becomes mysteriously untouchable for defensive players.



What's wrong with this clip? Hakim Warrick forces a missed shot from Jeff Green, only to have Warrick, O.J. Mayo and Rudy Gay miss the rebound as it rolls to floor, gets sucked into Jeff Green's tractor beam and results in an unwarranted trip to the free-throw line for Green and his magic suction hands.

Sliding and Clipping

While it is nice that EA has put some basic defensive sliding animations into its game, defenders too often get locked into sliding around the court when they should be turning around and sprinting.

What Live needs is a button (maybe one of the triggers) that the user can hold down to stay in a sliding, defensive stance, then release when the user needs to stand up and move freely.

Point is, trying to automate these things for the user does not work in NBA Live 09 and tends to make defense consistently frustrating.

Lastly, clipping, while not as big of an issue as it is in NBA 2K9, still exists to some degree in NBA Live 09. Moving forward, clipping needs to be cut out of the game as much as possible to keep users from getting annoyed when they do everything right on the defensive end only to see the ball go right through their players’ hands/bodies and into the net for an easy basket.




What's wrong with this clip? Mike Conley shows how illogical the game's on-ball defense system is as he gets sucked out of bounds and out of position by Russell Westbrook's baseline drive. Marc Gasol seems to recover and make a clean block on the play -- only to have the ball clip right through his hand.

What’s a Basketball Fan to Do Now That March Madness Is Here?


With both NBA games needing to put in some serious work this summer before they can earn a start in many gamers’ starting lineups next fall, a lot of hoops fans have been left wondering where they should go for their basketball fix during March Madness.

The solution just might be the genre’s cagey veteran, College Hoops 2K8. Thanks to the efforts of the Operation Sports community, two sets of tournament-ready rosters are now online, just waiting to be downloaded and enjoyed.

And though it may be a few years behind the '09 basketball games in terms of animations and player models, College Hoops 2K8 is the only basketball game out there right now that actually leaves many users feeling like they are only fighting their opponents on the court, not the game’s brain-dead A.I., ridiculous animations or unresponsive controls.


NBA Live 09 Videos
Member Comments
# 21 Behindshadows @ 03/26/09 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thmst30
Well being a basketball game, having broken rebounding and bad animations is what makes the gameplay bad to me. I'm not trying to hate on the game, there really is a solid core to work with. I just couldn't put up with those two major issues anymore. Plus the analog passing is still inaccurate. So yea, thats all I'm saying. The rebounding and animations keep me from enjoying the game, because to me they are broken.
I have tons of offensive rebounding, just not an many as I should so I don't really see that as an issue. Secondly the so called analog passing. I wouldn't know I use icon passing all the time. I never use analog passing that feature has been broken in Live and 2k's games for years. Especially on a fastbreak when some how they just make sure you pass it to the wrong person to prevent the score.

Either way nothing is so broke in this game that makes it unplayable. And the offensive rebounding isn't broken, people just feel like they aren't getting enough of them compared to the cpu which in honesty they aren't getting many either. And the animations in this game don't make it unplayable, the animations that are there are fine and the game plays good. Maybe it doesn't run as smooth as super fast skating across the court 2k but what is here is very solid and well pace basketball.
 
# 22 mrclutch @ 03/26/09 12:55 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this....but I agree with Behindshadows.

I can't even imagine why anyone would use analog passing. I think the only reason thye have it in the game is because it's always been there. Icons baby.

On offensive rebounding, I think it's not that far off. If you check the stats in a real game they are few and far between.

I think what really throws the rebounding off is the elevated shooting percentage in the game on the default settings. Fix that and the rebound nnumber will be pretty close.

peace
 
# 23 thmst30 @ 03/26/09 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behindshadows
I have tons of offensive rebounding, just not an many as I should so I don't really see that as an issue. Secondly the so called analog passing. I wouldn't know I use icon passing all the time. I never use analog passing that feature has been broken in Live and 2k's games for years. Especially on a fastbreak when some how they just make sure you pass it to the wrong person to prevent the score.

Either way nothing is so broke in this game that makes it unplayable. And the offensive rebounding isn't broken, people just feel like they aren't getting enough of them compared to the cpu which in honesty they aren't getting many either. And the animations in this game don't make it unplayable, the animations that are there are fine and the game plays good. Maybe it doesn't run as smooth as super fast skating across the court 2k but what is here is very solid and well pace basketball.
OK, so if the animations and rebounding are fine then why has Mike made those his top two priorities to FIX for NBA Live 10? They are broken, and even he knows it.
 
# 24 bigsmallwood @ 03/26/09 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behindshadows
I have tons of offensive rebounding, just not an many as I should so I don't really see that as an issue. Secondly the so called analog passing. I wouldn't know I use icon passing all the time. I never use analog passing that feature has been broken in Live and 2k's games for years. Especially on a fastbreak when some how they just make sure you pass it to the wrong person to prevent the score.

Either way nothing is so broke in this game that makes it unplayable. And the offensive rebounding isn't broken, people just feel like they aren't getting enough of them compared to the cpu which in honesty they aren't getting many either. And the animations in this game don't make it unplayable, the animations that are there are fine and the game plays good. Maybe it doesn't run as smooth as super fast skating across the court 2k but what is here is very solid and well pace basketball.
There is LITTLE to nothing wrong with this game. If anybody has ever played a real game of basketball or watched a game of basketball, you know that there are few teams that avg a high number of Offensive Boards. I agree with BehindShadows...this game is NOT unplayable. It is actually the best Live since 06' with freestyle superstar. IMO people are complaining about the wrong things with this game. Other than the players running the baseline and not going out of bounds, I believe the animations are pretty accurate. Of course they could add a few more and maybe change the free-throw system but the game is the BEST option available. And yes I own 2K9 as well, but NBA Live 09 employs strategy. In 2K9 the CPU AI barely calls any real plays outside of trying to back door passes to death. And as a person who has been an avid fan of NBA 2K......NBA Live is back and is the Better game and will probably be Phenomenal next year if they add all the right game features ( ie beef up Be A Pro etc. etc.) and get a few little things right...Live 10 will be the new standard.
 
# 25 sportyguyfl31 @ 03/26/09 01:18 PM
The biggest mistake I made was trading in live to give 2k another shot.

Now that is a first.

The two brands seem to be flip flopping. Live is gradually becoming more "sim", and 2k is become more and more bling and flash.
 
# 26 Behindshadows @ 03/26/09 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thmst30
OK, so if the animations and rebounding are fine then why has Mike made those his top two priorities to FIX for NBA Live 10? They are broken, and even he knows it.
Not broken, adding more animations in which every company does every year they add more. And rebounding was an issue in Live 08 now it's accurate in this game. Like another poster said you can fix it with sliders. In which L4D's sliders did indeed fix. So no more issue with that.

Read all the other responses besides mine, this game is great!
 
# 27 thmst30 @ 03/26/09 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Behindshadows
Not broken, adding more animations in which every company does every year they add more. And rebounding was an issue in Live 08 now it's accurate in this game. Like another poster said you can fix it with sliders. In which L4D's sliders did indeed fix. So no more issue with that.

Read all the other responses besides mine, this game is great!
So, I guess Mike Wang doesn't know what he's talking about?
http://sports.espn.go.com/videogames...ory?id=3900151
Quote:
ESPN: What was the one gameplay aspect that frustrated you most about the 09 game that you wanted to fix?


Mike Wang: The first one for me is rebounding. It's just not right. The way guys go and position themselves, it just fundamentally wasn't basketball. With that you get guys jumping over your back, too many offensive rebounds, guys not boxing out properly, users not being able to get to the ball. It was just broken.
The other thing I'll say is that Live in the past struggled with controller response and feel. It felt almost like a turn-based basketball game where you triggered an animation and then you just watched it and you had to make decisions like you were playing chess. But basketball is a fast-paced, twitch and react game. It just needs to be more explosive in general. Live always felt robotic to me, so that's my first priority of what I'm fixing.
Broken rebounding and robotic feel. Lets see, isn't that exactly what I said? However I'm completely wrong though.
 
# 28 Mizzou23 @ 03/26/09 02:11 PM
I picked this up the other day and I'm really liking it so far. Obviously it isn't a perfect game, but I like what I'm seeing so far. I played as Atlanta against the Mavs, and Dirk went off in the 1st half, but I kept him in check in the 2nd half and managed to get a comfortable win. Horford cleaned up inside with 20 pts and 19 boards. Then I played as Houston against Miami. Battier locked down D-Wade, and he had an awful night shooting and I blew them out of the water.

Obviously a handful of games is a small sample size, but it seems like if you use some real-life strategy, you're going to get real-life results. Animations and other stuff aside, that's what I want to see in a sports game.
 
# 29 thmst30 @ 03/26/09 02:17 PM
I will admit saying it is unplayable is too harsh. I love the progress they've made, but if those two things can get fixed for next year then DAMN this game will rock.
 
# 30 jfsolo @ 03/26/09 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thmst30
So, I guess Mike Wang doesn't know what he's talking about?
http://sports.espn.go.com/videogames...ory?id=3900151


Broken rebounding and robotic feel. Lets see, isn't that exactly what I said? However I'm completely wrong though.
What's important is that Sean, Mike and company seem to be fully cognizant of the fact that the game still has a long way to go to be considered a good/great game. As long as their expectations and standards are at the highest level, it doesn't matter if some of their customers are already anointing them top dog.
 
# 31 mrclutch @ 03/26/09 05:40 PM
However I'm completely wrong though.[/quote]


Glad you finally get it.
 
# 32 thmst30 @ 03/26/09 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrclutch
However I'm completely wrong though.


Glad you finally get it.
Way to just delete the rest of the post. Thankfully the developers agree with me and that's all that matters.
 
# 33 KG @ 03/26/09 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thmst30
I hear you. I really tried to enjoy Live this year, but DAMN the animations are horrendous. Everything is so robotic and twitchy. Needs a serious overhaul to get it to the smooth gameplay it needs to be. Plus the inaccurate passing, and horrible rebounding made me give up after a month. I do look forward to 2010 though. If this team puts half the effort forward that the Madden team has, then the game can be pretty solid.
I agree, especially with the "twitchy" comment. This issue is what bothered me the most about NBA Live. Historically their animations have been lacking so I knew to keep my expectations low but I can't deal with the nature of their player movement. Spacing, playcalling, and some graphics are all incredible, by far the best I've seen in a hoops game.
 
# 34 thmst30 @ 03/26/09 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
What's important is that Sean, Mike and company seem to be fully cognizant of the fact that the game still has a long way to go to be considered a good/great game. As long as their expectations and standards are at the highest level, it doesn't matter if some of their customers are already anointing them top dog.
Exactly. People can praise this game all they want, as long as the guys actually working on the game realize that there is work to be done. This game has been out-sold and out-rated by the competition for the last few years for a reason.
 
# 35 stephensonmc @ 03/26/09 06:34 PM
Guys I assure you, there's absolutely NO question that we get where we are and where we need to be.
 
# 36 thmst30 @ 03/26/09 06:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephensonmc
Guys I assure you, there's absolutely NO question that we get where we are and where we need to be.
I know, I wasn't questioning you guys at all. Looking forward to some more great NBA Live 10 news down the road.
 
# 37 jfsolo @ 03/26/09 07:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephensonmc
Guys I assure you, there's absolutely NO question that we get where we are and where we need to be.
The D-Team members have been great. You've handled praise and criticism with equanimity. No defensiveness or sense of self-satisfaction. It does give a feeling of being in Bizzaro World when the game makers seem to be much more objective then their fan base.
 
# 38 sirjam @ 03/27/09 02:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsmallwood
There is LITTLE to nothing wrong with this game. If anybody has ever played a real game of basketball or watched a game of basketball, you know that there are few teams that avg a high number of Offensive Boards. I agree with BehindShadows...this game is NOT unplayable. It is actually the best Live since 06' with freestyle superstar. IMO people are complaining about the wrong things with this game. Other than the players running the baseline and not going out of bounds, I believe the animations are pretty accurate. Of course they could add a few more and maybe change the free-throw system but the game is the BEST option available. And yes I own 2K9 as well, but NBA Live 09 employs strategy. In 2K9 the CPU AI barely calls any real plays outside of trying to back door passes to death. And as a person who has been an avid fan of NBA 2K......NBA Live is back and is the Better game and will probably be Phenomenal next year if they add all the right game features ( ie beef up Be A Pro etc. etc.) and get a few little things right...Live 10 will be the new standard.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
# 39 Pared @ 03/27/09 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfsolo
As long as their expectations and standards are at the highest level, it doesn't matter if some of their customers are already anointing them top dog.
Fantastic post. Judging by some posts here you'd think they don't need to change anything.

They know what's what and that's all that matters. Otherwise the rebounding would still be terrible next year.
 
# 40 SageInfinite @ 03/27/09 03:41 PM
NBA Live has a ways to go, but it is my favorite bball game this season. The animations, rebounding, and presentation all need work. It definitely is nowhere near unplayable, and this is coming from a former NBA Live ***** and 2k lover. Now the roles have reversed, lol.
 


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