APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Feature Article

Submitted on: 07/28/2008 by Caley Roark

Back in May, I wrote an article detailing what developers could do to improve a non-licensed football game. My "five keys" were context, presentation, personality, longevity and customization. It will be interesting to see how upcoming games, namely Backbreaker, Blitz: The League II, and Tecmo Bowl: Kickoff, address what I see as important issues.

One game that we won't see is All-Pro Football 2K9. After being announced, this game was quickly shelved by 2K Sports. But, with my five keys in mind -- and a healthy dose of imagination -- let's look at what "could have been" for APF 2K9.

Context

Simply put, there was absolutely no context for the league that existed in APF 2K8. Sure, there were lots of believable team names and uniforms, but the stadiums themselves had better back-stories. And, while legends were interesting, they seemed to be randomly assigned to teams, presumably for the sake of balance.

This probably seems too over the top, especially for the usually grounded 2K Sports label...

So what background can be given for an imaginary league full of retired (or deceased) players? 2K could have been extra creative, and come up with a pretense that, while fun, still makes some sense. Perhaps the legendary -- and now anthropomorphic -- "football gods" are holding a contest to see which team is the best all time? Each god creates a team for its city, and reflecting the "theme leagues" of whatifsports.com, is limited to the historical players from that city. You yourself become a god, chose a city, and draft a team to defend its name. Nice tongue-in-cheek cinematics set all of this up before you even reach the opening menu.

This probably seems too over the top, especially for the usually grounded 2K Sports label, but risks like this could have set 2K9 apart from its competition.

Presentation

Nearly everyone agrees that ESPN NFL 2K5 is the pinnacle of sports gaming presentation. APF 2K8 tried, but didn't quite live up to its predecessor -- although it did outshine contemporary Maddens. Surely the loss of the ESPN license hurt, but (again with creativity) APF 2K9 could have come back stronger than ever.

APFTV could have set the standard for video game broadcasting while fully supporting the backstory of the league.

In my fantasy/comic background above, the gods would certainly need a broadcast partner for their APF contest. They could have turned to FOX, NBC, TNT, or better yet, created APFTV: "the exclusive home for legendary football action." Using Dan and Keith (the old 2K5 announcers), a fully realized presentation palette, and weekly recap shows, APFTV could have set the standard for video game broadcasting while fully supporting the backstory of the league. Also, borrowing from racing games, APFTV could have been integrated into the online league experience, letting you scout games as they are played live.

Personality

Outside of the colorful commentators, APF 2K8 lacked any kind of real personality. While the O.J. "throat slashing" celebration garnered lots of negative press, it was about the most interesting off-the-field aspect in the game. If you were like me, you mentally created personalities for your generic players. I had a tough ball-hawk safety once named Bacon. In my head, newspapers read "Bacon Slices" after this guy sealed a win with a hard hit and interception return. He became a character, someone I liked seeing do well. Unfortunately, this was relegated to the confines of my imagination.
During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game.

2K9 could have added real personalities to the generic players -- and the legends -- which would have made it interesting to follow the players throughout the course of a season. Utilizing the advanced broadcasting 2K knows how to pull off, each recap show could feature a "rising star" or a "slumping legend." They could of had those legends known for fiery temperaments get suspended for a few games; or perhaps ramped up the celebrations, albeit tastefully, to show off the more charismatic players. Anything to make these players, including the legends, seem less generic.

Longevity

During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game. This aspect of the game was that much fun for me -- kind of like drafting a fantasy team -- that it sometimes overshadowed the fine but bland gameplay. What could 2K9 have done to increase my time on the field?

In my madcap tournament of the gods scenario, I suggested that you start by creating an all-city squad to begin your season. The star system, uniform creation tool, and crazy stadiums remain, as they fit the theme. Following that line of thinking, I would begin my franchise as the beleaguered Philadelphia football deity, creating the perfect all-time Philly team. With Reggie White and Randall Cunningham as the cornerstones of the defense and offense, I guide the team through a grueling 16-game season and into the playoffs. Let's say I win the championship; what's next? Why do I keep playing?

As it turns out in my imagined 2K9, the football gods are just getting started -- they are omnipotent beings with lots of time on their hands. After one year of defending their cities, it's on to defending their favorite eras. So now I must take my all-Philly team and turn it into a team from a certain era. Maybe there is a keeper rule: you keep all of your generic players (who have individually become better or worse based on their performance) and two of your stars. Everyone else is released to the draft pool. Naturally, I keep White and Cunningham -- now as the backbone of my all-'80s team.

Depending on what legends 2K could have secured, there could have been 20 or more different scenarios that are randomly chosen at the start of each season.

The following year, the argument is defense vs. offense. So I dump Cunningham, keep White, and form the best defensive team I can -- no stars on offense. It creates some interesting matchups. After that it's letters that start with the last name, T-Z, etc. Then players who've won a championship vs. those who haven't. You see how many various scenarios there could be?

Depending on what legends 2K could have secured, there could have been 20 or more different scenarios that are randomly chosen at the start of each season. And, in most cases, you'd be able to keep one star around for multiple years -- allowing team, career, and league records to be kept. For example, maybe some of your generic players would develop into stars over the years. With a context as "out of the box" as the "god tournament," age isn't an issue, so no forced retirement. Certainly, these ideas make for a game that I would keep coming back to.

Customization

This is easy. Many fans had this idea on their wish-lists the day 2K8 was announced: full customization. So you aren't into the whole football gods thing? No problem. 2K9 could have shipped with an additional "vanilla" franchise mode with fully customizable teams, where you can mix-and-match legends how you see fit, or replace them entirely with fully editable generic players.

This is just one way 2K could have revamped the APF title for its second go-around, without ditching its core idea of legendary players. I know it's a little out there, but I still contend that the best way to make a non-licensed football game is to be super-creative, think outside the box, and do something different. We probably will never see 2K's second attempt at a legends-based football game, so in the words of writer John Greenleaf Whittier: "For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been.'"

Member Comments

# 21 burnwood @ 07/29/08 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spankdatazz22


	In the end I think 2K was trying too hard to separate themselves from the NFL. I can understand the approach, but in the end it's obvious that was pretty much unavoidable. I endorsed the approach myself and was wrong.

I disagree with this. I think 2K stayed too close to the NFL. I don't remember playing APF and thinking...'this is the game that doesn't have that NFL leash on what video games shouldn't portray'. They put in NFL legends, rules, regs, and refs.

What I didn't see was the more physical and violent side of football (especially on the defence). There are late hits in the game, but most times the hits seem on par as with what the NFL allows.

There's also other things they could have really exploited that the NFL currently doesn't allow in their license. More visible cheerleaders, group TD celebrations, and more opinionated commentary comes to mind.

It really felt to me as another NFL clone without the license. VC commented before the game came out that they didn't want to alienate the NFL on hopes of somehow regaining the license at a later point. But in reality, did they really think they could have outbid EA in the future when the price would be much higher than what they couldn't afford before?

Balls to the wall is what they should have done.

# 22 spankdatazz22 @ 07/29/08 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Behindshadows2


	But to cancel 2k9 when all they had to do was grow from this one, and then advertise it better, instead using old rappers and crap like that. It would have been nice to see this series with some growth. But to pull the plug after one release is just terrible.

It wouldn't shock me if EA announced tomorrow that the Take Two sale has gone through and 2K Sports as an entity no longer exists. It wouldn't have shocked me if that was said three months ago. It's hard to say what conditions they're having to work under, but I think it can't be an entirely positive environment at this point. Why work your azz off trying to improve something that most fans aren't appreciating in the first place? Let's say they make a kick azz game then... the TT sale goes through and all that work is gone/they no longer own it. I think there's a ton of variables we aren't accounting for. I look into the Madden forum and think... for better or worse, we're going to get what we deserve. At this point, 2K trying to fight to produce an unlicensed football game doesn't make sense from what I can see when people have made the choice to give Tiburon as long as it needs for the licensed games. I love the game and hold out hope they'd do something - patch '08, come out with a 2K10... but from a practical standpoint it doesn't make much sense given the climate.

# 23 spankdatazz22 @ 07/29/08 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnwood


	There's also other things they could have really exploited that the NFL currently doesn't allow in their license. More visible cheerleaders, group TD celebrations, and more opinionated commentary comes to mind. It really felt to me as another NFL clone without the license. VC commented before the game came out that they didn't want to alienate the NFL on hopes of somehow regaining the license at a later point. But in reality, did they really think they could have outbid EA in the future when the price would be much higher than what they couldn't afford before? Balls to the wall is what they should have done.

Good points. And in retrospect I do agree with you somewhat, they should've gone farther to distinguish themselves. But it's still a tightrope - go too far, and you're more associated with Blitz. Full customization was always one of the biggest features people wanted and the reason they wanted it was... to recreate the NFL. Or something that resembled the NFL. Or the NCAA. Or whatever league they wanted to create. I argued at the time that the game was better off not trying to mimic the NFL, but now I have to admit a lot of my enjoyment of the game comes from creating NFL teams. There's just no way around it unfortunately. And I think they also had to take into account the vast majority of people that don't want to spend hours customizing; that simply want to pick up and play the game. Trying to come up with something that was going to work conceptually is difficult.

As far as getting the license back, most of us knew there was no way EA was ever going to allow it to go non-exclusive if they were allowed to use their pocketbooks to secure it. But who knows? Many of us thought the NFL might look at the quality of Madden and be willing to take the approach the NBA has - make it more about the quality of the games. So they could've been looking at things from that standpoint. There's any number of ways we could look at it.

# 24 Cdenz @ 07/29/08 12:14 PM

I love this game, 10 X better than the Madden/NCAA crap we have have recieved the last couple of years, but this game needed a Franchise mode of somekind to help and maybe custom option to edit players names.

# 25 asu666 @ 07/29/08 12:19 PM

"Balls to the wall is what they should have done."

That's called Blitz and it stinks for sim fans. They should have done something simular to Pro Evolution Soccer is to FIFA, but let the community build everything and share it.

# 26 Hassan Darkside @ 07/29/08 01:09 PM

I just feel like it was a blown opportunity for a game that could have been so much better. I remember that they clamped down on customization options just to avoid confrontation with the NFL/EA Sports. What's the worst that they could do? Prohibit 2k from making another football game? Now look where we are.

# 27 CPRoark @ 07/29/08 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spankdatazz22


	Great article? When the author is talking about the game context could've had something to do with the "football gods" ruling over every city and... I had to stop reading that junk. Like so many other throwaway OS articles of late. Pretty much nothing useful in it but the title.

Sorry you feel this way. I knew when I was writing that there would be some who wouldn't buy what I was going for. If you would have finished reading, you would have seen that we agreed with the full customization aspect. That was certainly something that was lacking.

You also criticize me and IGN ripping the game for what it wasn't. That wasn't my intent at all; that's why the article wasn't "APF 2K8: What wasn't." As it is, 2K8 was a fine playing football game. In my opinion, which is contrary to yours, they didn't do enough to differentiate themselves from Madden. We were left with a great playing, albeit very generic feeling game.

To me, without customization, context is huge. I want a universe that seems tangible and ongoing. You are right, a bare-boned franchise mode wouldn't have worked--it would have felt empty. My "football gods" thing was a creative way to incorporate the legends--assuming that APF 2K9 would not have abandoned that concept--using imagination and maximizing replay. Using legends messes with any franchise attempt--what about retirement, drafting new players, etc.? If you legends never change, that removes a huge element of what's interesting about traditional franchises.

The point is these games will never do well without some creativity--on the part of the developers or the users (Winning 11, et al).

Whether or not my article is of use beyond the title, it has at least spurred some conversation about this game that may never come back.

# 28 spankdatazz22 @ 07/29/08 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CPRoark


	Sorry you feel this way. I knew when I was writing that there would be some who wouldn't buy what I was going for. If you would have finished reading, you would have seen that we agreed with the full customization aspect. That was certainly something that was lacking.

Personally I felt the football gods concept felt a little too out-there, but that isn't me talking down to your idea. And I definitely didn't mean to lump you in with IGN - I despise IGN's editorial and sports review content. I did mean what I said about OS's articles, because they have been mostly disappointing. That aside, I was trying to underscore the difficulty of how the game should be framed. Even in this thread we've seen x-number disparate ideas/directions people feel 2K should've taken, everyone feeling their idea was the right one. We had this debate leading up to APF's release - everybody had their own ideas about how franchise should be, how many teams, how many conferences/divisions, themes, etc. I just think we underestimate how difficult it was to try to create a viable football game essentially from scratch.

Most of us feel the player abilities system they were putting in place showed a lot of promise, but how might that have worked in a franchise mode? How might progression work? Or players declining in ability? Or if that should be taken into account at all? There was so much that was vague about the system to begin with, it's hard to see how they might've implemented it in the first year because people are so used to seeing numbers.

I agree w/your points on expanding on the personalities of the players. To some degree the players are somewhat distinguishable by the abilities, and I'm sure they would've expanded on that in future games. But the expectation seems to be that they have things relatively set on their first attempt. All I'm saying is trying to come up with a viable scheme that would please most is difficult, because there were a lot of hurdles to overcome. That they got the game made and it played very well on the field should've been considered a success in it's own right. Instead you had people saying the presentation sucked because it didn't match 2K5 - even though the game looks to be presented better than a new game like Madden '09 will be. No franchise. Game looks horrible (mostly 2K's fault in large part because of the ridiculous uniform choices imo). Just a lot for an unlicensed game to have to match up to

# 29 CPRoark @ 07/29/08 03:52 PM

You are right...I don't think they could ever win trying to please everyone. It couldn't be an NFL sim, might be too arcadey, presentation might be off, etc. That's why I think they either have to go the way many suggested, full customization, or go way out there with something that's focused and consistent. It doesn't have to be crazy, it just has to be implemented fully.

Madden will always be the big NFL game, Blitz is the arcade title. We know these are true because they've always been true (except maybe for Blitz: Pro). The NFL 2K series, I think, was gaining a reputation as the "true fans" game, i.e., if you are a real die-hard NFL fan, you'll like this better than Madden. But without the license, that rep was lost.

APF might be known as the Legends game, but it didn't do that well enough to gain a market share.

Again, it comes down to making it "our" game with customization, or it has to be the ______ game (fill in the blank with a solid ID). That could be the "football gods" game or something more grounded. In either case, it has to be creative and consistent.

# 30 burnwood @ 07/29/08 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asu666


	"Balls to the wall is what they should have done." That's called Blitz and it stinks for sim fans. They should have done something simular to Pro Evolution Soccer is to FIFA, but let the community build everything and share it.

Blitz most definitely wasn't what I shooting for in my post. The individual things in my previous post were though.

# 31 asu666 @ 07/29/08 06:12 PM

1. Drop the Legends it's Cheaper and Less Limiting
2. Full Customization (Players, Stadiums, Team Names and Locations Uniforms, Play Clock, Penalties, Game Play Sliders)
3. File Sharing
4. Owner Mode/ Franchise Mode

The concept is that a new league is starting up and the first draft is life a Necessary Roughness or The Replacement Players Concept. You are the league Commisioner and a Franchise Owner. The goal is to build your team and the league into the premier football league in the country within 30 seasons. The league acts like a character in an RPG, you start off small and grow. I would like to see variable attendance as an option too so I can see more fans packing my custom stadium as the league and my team does better.

# 32 CPRoark @ 07/29/08 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asu666


	1. Drop the Legends it's Cheaper and Less Limiting 2. Full Customization (Players, Stadiums, Team Names and Locations Uniforms, Play Clock, Penalties, Game Play Sliders) 3. File Sharing 4. Owner Mode/ Franchise Mode The concept is that a new league is starting up and the first draft is life a Necessary Roughness or The Replacement Players Concept. You are the league Commisioner and a Franchise Owner. The goal is to build your team and the league into the premier football league in the country within 30 seasons. The league acts like a character in an RPG, you start off small and grow. I would like to see variable attendance as an option too so I can see more fans packing my custom stadium as the league and my team does better.

Good ideas. If only OS readers and staff had the resources to make a football game.

# 33 pietasterp @ 07/30/08 04:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metallicatz


	I played APF for 6 Season Mode go-rounds and it just got boring. Very little replay value for offline guys who like franshise mode. Plus, the whole legends gimmick got old pretty quick because it added a huge arcade element to the game. The legends were programmed seemingly by guys who watched NFL Films highlights of these guys under the assumption that guys like Earl Cambell or Walter Payton rattled off highlight reel calibur runs on every down. That just wasn't the case in real life. The game was every bit the mediocre product the cumulative review scores indicate.

I'm a huge 2K guy, but I have to agree with you here, metallicatz. The game was fine, but in the end, it did seem like a incrementally-improved NFL2K5 without the NFL part. I have to say I think the game was mediocre, and I agree that the legends were a bit overly impactful on games.

Having said that, the football gods idea wasn't bad - it's a way to go to give the game character. Personally, I just think a stripped-down game with a boffo engine and next-gen graphics which the community could customize the hell out of was THE way to go. Give us the tools to re-create the NFL, and I promise the game would be a better recreation of the league than Madden, because the hardcore users would take all the inconsistencies they point out in these forums and translate that into the game directly. I don't see how that would be that difficult. Hell, if you built in enough customization (and frankly I don't see why they couldn't - it's just a matter of letting you put as many teams in a league as you want and customizing the structure of a season), you could even make it so that the game could either be a pro (NFL) OR college (NCAA) game. There's really no reason that couldn't happen.

BTW, my idea for a different way 2K could've gone would have been to make a high school football game, wherein you could set up your own leagues/divisions/conferences, customize all the schools (so you could make your own high school!), and play out a high school season to the state championship. Has anyone ever tried this? It seems kinda cool to me...

# 34 videobastard @ 07/30/08 10:40 AM

I agree with the people saying drop the legends, add fileshare, great customize feature, franchise mode and improved graphics.

# 35 Triathlete_201 @ 07/30/08 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by videobastard


	I agree with the people saying drop the legends, add fileshare, great customize feature, franchise mode and improved graphics.

Agreed! Although I love the playing with the legends in 2K8, if they make another game, I'd rather have them spend all that money on everything you just mentioned. I honestly feel if they added file share, full customization, top notch presentation, graphics, etc. the game would sell very well.

# 36 TCF @ 07/30/08 11:42 AM

the only problem i had with all of the 2k series was how they designed the facemasks on the helmets they looked cartoonish and for some reason that didn't agree with me. plus i couldn't stand the actors who were the commentators the game play was good and the presentation was awesome.

# 37 spankdatazz22 @ 07/30/08 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi


	I agree with some of your setiments, but why are you automatically assuming that if a much needed franchise was included, that it would be bare bones? Was their last football game franchise mode bare bones prior to All pro? No. Once again, you're being an apologist for 2K. Have you ever thought about what if it would have been good and even deeper than the franchise mode of NFL 2K5? There's a flip side to what you're saying. at them not including a franchise because they were trying to seperate themselves from the NFL. Please stop with the non sense. They didn't include it because they didn't think hard enough on how to implement a franchise mode with legends.

lol seems I've pissed off a lot of people with my posts the last few days here and in the Madden forum. No prob. First, my opinion on the football gods idea was just that - an opinion. And I thought I did point out that what the author brought up was that we all have our ideas about which direction 2K should've taken. I don't think we've ever been able to come up with a consensus on what the game should be. Pre-release, there was a strong contingent of people that wanted fully customizable, 2 conference, 4 division, 32-teams at a minimum - which sounds awfully familar. Or at least the option to create that format, or any format they desired.

Regarding the franchise issue, most people logically assume if they had added one it would've been bare-bones simply because of the complexity of trying to develop something new. How would progression work with the new ratings system that has no numbers visible to the gamer? How would the legends be incorporated? What would be a fair financial structure? How are the yearly pool of college players generated/raked/rated? These are just things off the top of my head - I'm sure there's a ton of complexity involved in trying to develop a legitimate franchise mode. I don't think any of the current sports games have had to start from scratch developing a franchise mode. For example, while I'd guess while much of Madden next gen's franchise mode isn't exactly the same as the current gen version, I'd guess they were able to use *some* of the current gen version's code as a base. And well they should, because franchise mode was very well done last gen.

While 2K might be able to keep the format, pretty much all the names/numbers had to change at the very least, because they no longer had the NFLPA license. Then they'd have to think how to structure players given their focus on player abilities versus player ratings. I'm no programmer; I'm just wondering aloud what I'd think would be hurdles in trying to develop a functional franchise mode. I was also taking into account they didn't have the same number of people working on the game as they did the NFL2Kx games. Yes, I should've taken the god idea more seriously and looked at how it might've circumvented some of the issues I noted above. But as I said - everybody had their own idea on what they wanted the game to be. For some, the themed stadiums were too much and not grounded in reality enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi


	Again I agree with your notion that All pro had potential and also had flashes of greatness, but again, you follow that up with an excuse as to why All Pro 2K8 wasn't up to par in alot of people minds. Do you think I as a gamer, care about how many people was working on the game? NO I don't give a F, when I'm dishing out 60 plus dollars for it, and then I have somewhat high expectations. I'm not trying to hear about anyones excuses as to why a game isn't as good as alot of people thought it would. I knew it was just a matter of time until you mention Madden. I, for one have been done with Madden since it release one of the worse games I've ever played in Madden 06 (next gen), so no I don't have patience for EA B.S either. Just imagine the uproar you would hear not only from this site, but from all football gamers if Madden didn't have a franchise mode. You can speculate however much want to, but you don't know the exact reason why 2K sports didn't release an All pro videogame this year. Stop blaming people for a change and blame 2K for not releasing all pro this year. They fumbled the ball and that's that.

Imo it wouldn't make sense to waste time developing a franchise mode you know would essentially be broken for the sake of saying there's a franchise mode. And for the reasons I noted above, I would think it would be difficult to get a functioning franchise mode in year one. I've said myself - 2K made a lot of mistakes themselves. They should've involved the community more. In retrospect it probably would've been better to wait another year. The game is unnecessarily restrictive. I've been harping on the horrible uniform choices since day one. I hate that they didn't redo the juke system. Etc. etc., I could name a ton of things I feel they got wrong. I wasn't trying to excuse 2K. But, I look at the game as a first year next gen effort - when compared to other first year next gen sports game efforts compares favorably, if not better, than many. Imo the game was judged more against 2nd/3rd year games and expectations, which isn't a fair comparison.

As to why I don't blame them for releasing another game, the fact is the standard should be different. I wouldn't pick up Blitz expecting it to give me some sim experience. I wouldn't pick up Burnout expecting it to give me some racing experience it's not intended to give. As you said, 2K chose to place more emphasis on the online functionality of APF. Rightly or wrongly, that's the choice they made; that was the game's intention. A lot of the issues we're discussing are the limitations or what the game's lacking offline. I'm not much of an online gamer myself so I understand the frustration. But, 2K did choose to place more emphasis on the online portion of the game.

EDIT: just to add, I think Backbreaker if it sees the light of day will go through something similar - have been saying it all along. It's not going to be judged for the first year game it is

# 38 mwjr @ 07/30/08 02:41 PM

Forget football gods. Forget teams crossing eras.

Just add a franchise option where you can opt to use all fictional characters in a fictional league.

The gameplay is amazing. Always has been. If you add a franchise and drop the cost from $59 to, say, $29, license or no, people are going to buy the game.

# 39 asu666 @ 07/30/08 06:10 PM

"While we dont have alot of info, they did say that the series is not dead. So we really dont know wtf is going on." kcxiv

EA has the NFL covered for years to come. 2K has a better playing game and should press on with the total customization theme and forget the licenses. I would love to create my own league, or be able to download some crazy fan's version of the NCAA or even the NFL. It's a really beautiful concept because 2K basically just has to focus on making little improvements to the gameplay engine, graphics, and content creation tools. Most game devs would love it if they just had to come up with the tools to trick out a game and didn't actually have to design every little detail themselves and put all of the assets in place.

# 40 Valdarez @ 07/31/08 03:57 AM

You really lost me on the whole football Gods concept. They need to dump the Legends in the game, use the money they spent on the Legends on putting a story / backdrop on a custom league, and then provide complete customization such that we can have a virtual Orange Box for football gaming where we can create our own NCAA, NFL, Arena League, Canadian style, or even high school football leagues.

Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves.

I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story.

A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League, and there's an expansion where you're allowed to create a team from scratch. You get a few left over Vets, but must build the team from scratch, starting out with mostly scrubs. As the team progresses, players gain abilities, and raise in their Tier (progress).

Instead of a normal CAP mode, players create football players using an RPG'ish style build trees, such that players can't create over powered players, and they have a speed back, power back, or all around back, or a speed WR, or a possession WR.

I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.

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