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APF 2K9: What Could Have Been

Back in May, I wrote an article detailing what developers could do to improve a non-licensed football game. My "five keys" were context, presentation, personality, longevity and customization. It will be interesting to see how upcoming games, namely Backbreaker, Blitz: The League II, and Tecmo Bowl: Kickoff, address what I see as important issues.

One game that we won't see is All-Pro Football 2K9. After being announced, this game was quickly shelved by 2K Sports. But, with my five keys in mind -- and a healthy dose of imagination -- let's look at what "could have been" for APF 2K9.

Context

Simply put, there was absolutely no context for the league that existed in APF 2K8. Sure, there were lots of believable team names and uniforms, but the stadiums themselves had better back-stories. And, while legends were interesting, they seemed to be randomly assigned to teams, presumably for the sake of balance.

This probably seems too over the top, especially for the usually grounded 2K Sports label...

So what background can be given for an imaginary league full of retired (or deceased) players? 2K could have been extra creative, and come up with a pretense that, while fun, still makes some sense. Perhaps the legendary -- and now anthropomorphic -- "football gods" are holding a contest to see which team is the best all time? Each god creates a team for its city, and reflecting the "theme leagues" of whatifsports.com, is limited to the historical players from that city. You yourself become a god, chose a city, and draft a team to defend its name. Nice tongue-in-cheek cinematics set all of this up before you even reach the opening menu.

This probably seems too over the top, especially for the usually grounded 2K Sports label, but risks like this could have set 2K9 apart from its competition.

Presentation

Nearly everyone agrees that ESPN NFL 2K5 is the pinnacle of sports gaming presentation. APF 2K8 tried, but didn't quite live up to its predecessor -- although it did outshine contemporary Maddens. Surely the loss of the ESPN license hurt, but (again with creativity) APF 2K9 could have come back stronger than ever.

APFTV could have set the standard for video game broadcasting while fully supporting the backstory of the league.

In my fantasy/comic background above, the gods would certainly need a broadcast partner for their APF contest. They could have turned to FOX, NBC, TNT, or better yet, created APFTV: "the exclusive home for legendary football action." Using Dan and Keith (the old 2K5 announcers), a fully realized presentation palette, and weekly recap shows, APFTV could have set the standard for video game broadcasting while fully supporting the backstory of the league. Also, borrowing from racing games, APFTV could have been integrated into the online league experience, letting you scout games as they are played live.

Personality

Outside of the colorful commentators, APF 2K8 lacked any kind of real personality. While the O.J. "throat slashing" celebration garnered lots of negative press, it was about the most interesting off-the-field aspect in the game. If you were like me, you mentally created personalities for your generic players. I had a tough ball-hawk safety once named Bacon. In my head, newspapers read "Bacon Slices" after this guy sealed a win with a hard hit and interception return. He became a character, someone I liked seeing do well. Unfortunately, this was relegated to the confines of my imagination.
During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game.


2K9 could have added real personalities to the generic players -- and the legends -- which would have made it interesting to follow the players throughout the course of a season. Utilizing the advanced broadcasting 2K knows how to pull off, each recap show could feature a "rising star" or a "slumping legend." They could of had those legends known for fiery temperaments get suspended for a few games; or perhaps ramped up the celebrations, albeit tastefully, to show off the more charismatic players. Anything to make these players, including the legends, seem less generic.

Longevity

During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game. This aspect of the game was that much fun for me -- kind of like drafting a fantasy team -- that it sometimes overshadowed the fine but bland gameplay. What could 2K9 have done to increase my time on the field?

In my madcap tournament of the gods scenario, I suggested that you start by creating an all-city squad to begin your season. The star system, uniform creation tool, and crazy stadiums remain, as they fit the theme. Following that line of thinking, I would begin my franchise as the beleaguered Philadelphia football deity, creating the perfect all-time Philly team. With Reggie White and Randall Cunningham as the cornerstones of the defense and offense, I guide the team through a grueling 16-game season and into the playoffs. Let's say I win the championship; what's next? Why do I keep playing?

As it turns out in my imagined 2K9, the football gods are just getting started -- they are omnipotent beings with lots of time on their hands. After one year of defending their cities, it's on to defending their favorite eras. So now I must take my all-Philly team and turn it into a team from a certain era. Maybe there is a keeper rule: you keep all of your generic players (who have individually become better or worse based on their performance) and two of your stars. Everyone else is released to the draft pool. Naturally, I keep White and Cunningham -- now as the backbone of my all-'80s team.

Depending on what legends 2K could have secured, there could have been 20 or more different scenarios that are randomly chosen at the start of each season.


The following year, the argument is defense vs. offense. So I dump Cunningham, keep White, and form the best defensive team I can -- no stars on offense. It creates some interesting matchups. After that it's letters that start with the last name, T-Z, etc. Then players who've won a championship vs. those who haven't. You see how many various scenarios there could be?

Depending on what legends 2K could have secured, there could have been 20 or more different scenarios that are randomly chosen at the start of each season. And, in most cases, you'd be able to keep one star around for multiple years -- allowing team, career, and league records to be kept. For example, maybe some of your generic players would develop into stars over the years. With a context as "out of the box" as the "god tournament," age isn't an issue, so no forced retirement. Certainly, these ideas make for a game that I would keep coming back to.

Customization

This is easy. Many fans had this idea on their wish-lists the day 2K8 was announced: full customization. So you aren't into the whole football gods thing? No problem. 2K9 could have shipped with an additional "vanilla" franchise mode with fully customizable teams, where you can mix-and-match legends how you see fit, or replace them entirely with fully editable generic players.

This is just one way 2K could have revamped the APF title for its second go-around, without ditching its core idea of legendary players. I know it's a little out there, but I still contend that the best way to make a non-licensed football game is to be super-creative, think outside the box, and do something different. We probably will never see 2K's second attempt at a legends-based football game, so in the words of writer John Greenleaf Whittier: "For all sad words of tongue and pen, The saddest are these, 'It might have been.'"


Member Comments
# 41 Valdarez @ 07/31/08 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asu666
EA has the NFL covered for years to come. 2K has a better playing game and should press on with the total customization theme and forget the licenses. I would love to create my own league, or be able to download some crazy fan's version of the NCAA or even the NFL. It's a really beautiful concept because 2K basically just has to focus on making little improvements to the gameplay engine, graphics, and content creation tools.
Dead on. User Content is not only the future, it's now. Look at places like wikipedia, myspace, urbandictionary.com even. Users are more than willing to create their own content when it's something they enjoy.
  • Focus on the tools.
  • Make them PC available.
  • Provide a share system (2K Share, whatever).
Sit back and watch as 2K Sports enjoys a lower cost of delivering a more realistic football experience that fans can cater to their own desires.
 
# 42 spankdatazz22 @ 07/31/08 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi
It’s funny that you say people wanted the ability to fully customize everything, but yet that was one of 2K’s biggest selling points for All Pro 2K8, customization. I don’t think it’s too much to ask for a non-licensed game to be largely customizable. Regardless of what you and I think, 2K needed something that would make people say “okay, this may not be the NFL, but it’s a hell of a football and gaming experience that I see myself playing for awhile, at least to the next installment comes out.” And, in my opinion All Pro definitely didn’t do that and fell short of it.
Of course it fell short - they were one and done. But as you said, they seem to have focused more on the online portion of the game versus the offline portion of the game. As I said, rightly or wrongly that's the direction they chose. And from the way the game is structured, they wanted to maintain some sense of balance so you wouldn't get online and see the same combinations of players on every team. AS I SAID, as a mostly offline player myself the offline portion of the game is somewhat disappointing because it seems needlessly restrictive. But I'm not sure why certain decisions were made. I'd guess if you're going to have full customization offline, they may have needed to have two roster files, one for online and one for offline so there would be no way a gamer could circumvent the system and create some player combination that was unstoppable and make the online portion of the game mostly unplayable. It took less than a month for someone to create a 7ft (i think) receiver with x-capabilities.

The reason I brought up the number of people working on the game is because there's no way they'd be able to account for the unlimited number of combinations and variables people were going to come up with. Things every other dev has to deal with. But if you're working with less people, it only makes sense to extend yourself enough as to be able to control things to a certain degree.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi
I see those who are fans of All Pro say there’s so many combinations of players that they’ve have yet to use. Wow, is that what’s suppose to keep gamers coming back to play the game, putting together different teams?
For online players I could see where it is. And where your skills as a player versus your choices while working within the limitations of the system truly show if someone is the better player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi
You said the reason why All pro didn’t have a franchise mode was because they were trying to branch out from the NFL. And I also find it funny that you’re asking all of these questions when the article itself found away that All pro could have gotten a franchise mode to work.
*sigh* First, I seriously doubt I said All Pro didn't have a franchise mode because they were trying to be different from the NFL lol. I said there are complications in trying to implement a franchise mode and rattled off questions I'd have in trying to create a franchise mode. I'm sure there are a ton more issues that need to be taken into account that I'm not even considering. Of course there are probably ways it could work - just as they could choose a way that didn't work. I spoke to the complexity of the situation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi
All of the questions you ask just goes to show that you’re being closed minded about this entire thing, and of course, you’re trying to defend 2K for not having a franchise mode in All pro. And I also think you’re misunderstanding what people are asking for. I for one am not asking for a long drawn out franchise mode that would span over 20 years; all I’m asking for is a good 5 years of franchise mode.
see above. glad you were only asking for a 5yrs frachise mode lol. That's a new one to me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi
But you know what, I wouldn’t have had a problem and I would have lowered my expectations drastically if they would have took the NFL 2K5 route and charged 20 bucks for this game. It could have been a reintroduction to 2K football if you will, but 60 bucks? I bought All Pro for the simple fact that I thought it could be on the level of NFL 2K5. Not exceeding it, but it would at the very least be on par with it. I was wrong. You see the price that All Pro 2K8 is now? That’s exactly how much it’s worth, and how much it should have cost from the jump.
Cost definitely factored into people's expectations. And in retrospect it would've been better to release the game at $39.99 or $49.99. But practically every game releases at the same price regardless of quality - Superman 360 had the same msrp as Grand Theft Auto. I've seen no original 360/PS3 release at less than that so I don't get the expectation that the title should've been $20 since that's all it's worth in your opinion (guess the price is lower). Expecting the game to be on par with NFL2K5 never should've been an expectation - that's totally unrealistic on your part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Malachi
You keep bringing up however many people worked on the game, again, I don’t care to know and it doesn’t concern me as a gamer who has nothing invested in 2K sports. If you want to use that as an excuse, I can easily say that they had over three years between football titles to get ideas out in the open and make something concrete.
See above; the number of people working on the game combined with the need to develop a new football concept should've brought about more grounded expectations. I listed a bunch of problems I had with the game, and I have a ton more. But my expectations were a little more realistic. Just as I wouldn't expect the world from Backbreaker when it comes out. But many people will.
 
# 43 mwjr @ 07/31/08 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
You really lost me on the whole football Gods concept. They need to dump the Legends in the game, use the money they spent on the Legends on putting a story / backdrop on a custom league, and then provide complete customization such that we can have a virtual Orange Box for football gaming where we can create our own NCAA, NFL, Arena League, Canadian style, or even high school football leagues.

Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves.

I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story.

A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League, and there's an expansion where you're allowed to create a team from scratch. You get a few left over Vets, but must build the team from scratch, starting out with mostly scrubs. As the team progresses, players gain abilities, and raise in their Tier (progress).

Instead of a normal CAP mode, players create football players using an RPG'ish style build trees, such that players can't create over powered players, and they have a speed back, power back, or all around back, or a speed WR, or a possession WR.

I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.
I wouldn't dump the legends; I think there is a certain appeal to that.

I would, however, make their presence optional. I'd include a variety of modes - e.g. season, franchise, career, superstar - with fictional leagues, teams and players.

However, I'd also add an option to each of those modes which would allow me to play either (a)without any legends or (b)with legends.

Problem solved.

Where's my royalty check, 2K?
 
# 44 Valdarez @ 07/31/08 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwjr
I wouldn't dump the legends; I think there is a certain appeal to that.

I would, however, make their presence optional. I'd include a variety of modes - e.g. season, franchise, career, superstar - with fictional leagues, teams and players.

However, I'd also add an option to each of those modes which would allow me to play either (a)without any legends or (b)with legends.

Problem solved.

Where's my royalty check, 2K?
So you want to incur the costs of the x-NFLers and a fictional league. That's too much to ask from a game that's struggling to get by. I'd cut the costs where ever I can, while still providing the ability for the fans to create any custom content they want. If I can't track an ROI to the investment, then I wouldn't incur the cost of the investment. If anything, APF2K8 has shown us that the Legend players are not enough to sale the game.
 
# 45 spankdatazz22 @ 07/31/08 02:57 PM
I do think the legends add a known personality to the game. With only generics, the average person isn't going to identify with any player or team - if they're all randoms. Most people know Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Barry Sanders, Nighttrain Lane, etc. and know their abilities off the bat. I would think having full/near-full customization for the generics while retaining the legends would be ideal. I would think they shouldn't have the legends at their current ages, as some of them look way too old to be putting on helmets. Have them look as they did during their playing days
 
# 46 CPRoark @ 07/31/08 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valdarez
Other than the Football Gods concept, most of what you presented has been discussed in the forums. In fact, there are a couple of lines there that look copy/pasted directly from the forums themselves.

I read a lot on APF, so for me at least, nothing new in the story.

A better game would include a fictional league, with a complete backdrop ala Blitz the League...I have a 20 page write up that I put together for 2K Sports that they basically ignored that I can share some day if you want a write that incorporates ideas from the forums, and a lot of other new ones like the ones listed here, complete with game play changes and screen shots to boot. PM me if you want an article on it, and I'll see what I can do.
As I said to another poster, I knew going in that the "football gods" concept would be hit or miss with some people. It was simply a way to include the legends (which probably wouldn't have been dropped for 2K9...it was their "thing") in a mode that would add some legitimate longevity.

The argument whether to include legends or not is a valid one, but wasn't the point of my article. I like your idea of a fictional league, and that's what is meant by "context." I'm not sure I have the time or desire to read a 20 page dissertation on APF, but I certainly applaud your dedication. I wouldn't take it personally that 2K "ignored" it...most companies do not accept or even read unsolicited ideas. If they even adopted part of your tome, would you expect any kind of acknowledgment or reimbursement? Probably, as would any other armchair developer who sends in ideas. Now 2K, instead of spending money on a game, is passing it out to amateur developers or--more realistically--litigation fees to combat those who are looking for their cut.

Finally, before you make claims of plagiarism, please have evidence. I'm sure that my writing is influenced, much like your 20 page report, by what is said in the forums. In fact, I come out and recognize in some areas what the community's wishes are. However, your insinuation that I used "copy/paste" is without basis and egregious. I can't imagine OS would keep writers around who need to stoop to cannibalizing its own readership. Besides, have you seen the spelling/grammar in a large portion of the posts on here?
 
# 47 Valdarez @ 07/31/08 04:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPRoark
I like your idea of a fictional league, and that's what is meant by "context." I'm not sure I have the time or desire to read a 20 page dissertation on APF, but I certainly applaud your dedication. I wouldn't take it personally that 2K "ignored" it...most companies do not accept or even read unsolicited ideas. If they even adopted part of your tome, would you expect any kind of acknowledgment or reimbursement? Probably, as would any other armchair developer who sends in ideas. Now 2K, instead of spending money on a game, is passing it out to amateur developers or--more realistically--litigation fees to combat those who are looking for their cut.
Realize I'm a professional software developer (Enterprise Software Architect) who is used to pouring of software documents as well as producing them. Right now I'm considering moving into product management (a bit of change / more business focused than technical) and have been spending a lot of time reading / producing BRDs (business requirement documents) as well as PRD (product requirement documents). The tome you referred to was very well written, broken down into distinct categories with justifications for each feature. One of the guys at 2K Sports said it was the better than anything they had seen internally. Now, he could have just been trying to make me feel good, if so, it worked, but it wasn't just a list of 'add this please'. Someone did look at the document, I just never received any official feedback on it, which was disappointing after all the work. The only feedback I got was from my contact, and I was hoping to have at least an email conversation with one of the developers or the producers so I could publish it on the 2K Football Strategy website and provide the fans of the game a little bit of info.

The document was culmination of fan requests, coupled with other new features that I had thought of myself (not from the forums). That was my only take away from the article. Other than the Football Gods approach, there wasn't really any new thinking in the article, and, unfortunately, the Football Gods approach doesn't really fit in with the sports genre all that well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CPRoark
Finally, before you make claims of plagiarism, please have evidence. I'm sure that my writing is influenced, much like your 20 page report, by what is said in the forums. In fact, I come out and recognize in some areas what the community's wishes are. However, your insinuation that I used "copy/paste" is without basis and egregious. I can't imagine OS would keep writers around who need to stoop to cannibalizing its own readership. Besides, have you seen the spelling/grammar in a large portion of the posts on here?
Please don't tell me something I said is without basis, when you haven't even asked for evidence, that's extremely rude. A simple, 'no I didn't copy/paste', and 'you must be confused, can you provide evidence' would have sufficed. I'm not going to take the time to post something if there's not a basis for it. Perhaps the wording that I used was a little strong, but I have seen the same thing several times in the forums (which doesn't necessarily mean the OS forums), and, this again, goes along with no new ideas in the article theme which was my main observation.

From the 2K Sports Forums
http://2ksports.com/forums/showthrea...=178425&page=4
Quote:
I swear I spend more time editing my team in APF than I do playing the game.
Your Quote
Quote:
During the year I've owned 2K8, I've put more time into creating teams than I have actually playing the game.
So, you're right, it's not copy and pasted, but it's roughly the same idea, which is the point I was really trying to get across. Sorry if you took it as an attack on your ethics, it wasn't meant to be that way.

I run the www.2kfootballstrategy.com website and I'm mod over at the 2ksports.com forums, so I read a TON of posts about APF, which is why I tried to indicate that 'from my viewpoint', which is going to be a lot more diverse than your average reader.

On a bright note, it is good to see any 2K Football themed article on OS after the slew of EA related ones, and the article is very well written.
 
# 48 CPRoark @ 07/31/08 05:12 PM
I didn't mean to sound as if your 20 page idea write-up was worthless or without merit, and it sounds as if you have the experience to create something that's meaningful. I read the "basically ignored" phrase as a bitter fan who dreamed up something as wild as my "football gods" idea and then was upset when 2K passed. This doesn't seem to be the case, and as always, it's hard to infer meaning behind text posts. I was honest that I don't have time to read 20 pages, but I'm certain that you could intrigue me with a basic summary.

Your statement about cut and paste did seem to be an attack on my credibility and honesty, but again, it's hard to read intent behind words. If you notice, I did ask for evidence before bringing down the hammer of "egregiousness." I suppose, as a writer, I am a little sensitive about such claims. It's now "water under the bridge" as far as I'm concerned.

Finally, I recognize that nothing but the football gods idea was earth shatteringly new. My approach was to look at what could have been done to improve this game without a complete overhaul, i.e. building on what was already there. I personally don't mind the legends if they are used in a more creative manner. I didn't go about writing the article with the thought of building my own "ultimate" football game; the foundation of APF still had to be there. To me, the biggest theme of APF was the legends; I wasn't going to scrap that in favor of a dream game.

I think that ultimately, we want APF or 2K5 or whatever, simply because its an alternative to Madden. However, fans aren't going to accept it without substance, whether its football gods or fictitious leagues.
 
# 49 Valdarez @ 07/31/08 05:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CPRoark
I think that ultimately, we want APF or 2K5 or whatever, simply because its an alternative to Madden. However, fans aren't going to accept it without substance, whether its football gods or fictitious leagues.
I agree with the substance part, but not the alternative to Madden.

2K Sports continues to provide the better game play, and the most realistic football simulation experience. For die hard gamers, it really gets down to those two things, and it's those two items that Madden has failed to deliver on year, after year, after year. Nearly 5 years after APF2K5 and Madden's producers are claiming they still can't match what Visual Concepts has done in various areas of the game.

The game must have substance though, and yes, Franchise support. The thought of having a tiered system for players, and taking a player from scrub level to Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum level needs to be better thought out and incorporated into the game plan.

I really enjoyed Blitz the leagues take on their game, with the story backdrops, and intro's to the football games. It was well done, and somewhat story driven. This needs to be the hook for the next rev of the football game. Story driven, based on dynamic events with random players and team interactions as the story drivers, and yes, some type of broad casting mixed heavily throughout the season to raise the presentation / broadcast level of the game.

With the cost of license exclusivity, and even the high cost of the NFL Legends they signed, making a game that way diverts a lot of resources from development to content. If you're going to make a game, why pay for content, when you can get it for free?

I'll have a website (yes, full website made from Mind Manager, so nothing fancy, but traversable and well laid out) and an article to walk through many of the ideas that I harvested from the forums, laced with my own take up here in a couple of weeks, so you can throw stones at it.
 
# 50 Blzer @ 08/04/08 02:13 AM
Who typed this? I don't mean to not be on the topic at hand, but "could of" instead of "could have?" And the other announcer is Peter, not Keith.

But yes, APF 2K9 really could have been special.
 
# 51 asu666 @ 08/04/08 12:28 PM
I miss you 2K Football!! '''''
 
# 52 stead21 @ 08/06/08 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asu666
APF 2K10 needs to drop the Legends and all ties to the NFL. 2K should release the best playing football game on the market and turn the presentation up to a ten like they did on 2K5. Without the Legends or an official TV partner, the game with be a lot cheaper to make and they can focus on a stadium creator, franchise mode option (league options), player editor/ creator, and file sharing. 2K only needs to build the best playing game and let the community edit it and share the files. Cheap to make and easy to love.
The idea that your bringing to that table is not a bad at all. I mean the great basketball game ever in my opinion is not NBA 2K, but Run N Gun 2 for the arcade. That game has zero real NBA players. But in regards to APF 2K8, I love the aspect of old school players, that I watched growing up and playing with them on APF 2K8! I think this game could really go to the next level especially looking at the aspect of how players get inducted into the hall of fame and just the large number of outstanding football players from back in the day. I mean you have players like Bo Jackson and Jim Brown that didn't make the cut, but still can make it in future 2K games.
 
# 53 jyoung @ 08/11/08 06:21 AM
It's sad that people need fluff like franchise mode and NFL/NFLPA licenses to enjoy a football video game.

Gameplay comes before features. Always.

That's why All Pro Football remains my most-played 360 game, over a year into its lifespan:

it remains unmatched in terms of how well it plays on the field. No video game to date simulates the sport of football as well as All Pro does.

I wonder if some of you people would even play sports games at all if you grew up in the 8-16 bit era where league licenses were hard to come by and modes of play rarely extended beyond the typical season and exhibition matches.
 
# 54 kantshootrite @ 08/11/08 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wEEman33
It's sad that people need fluff like franchise mode and NFL/NFLPA licenses to enjoy a football video game.

Gameplay comes before features. Always.

That's why All Pro Football remains my most-played 360 game, over a year into its lifespan:

it remains unmatched in terms of how well it plays on the field. No video game to date simulates the sport of football as well as All Pro does.

I wonder if some of you people would even play sports games at all if you grew up in the 8-16 bit era where league licenses were hard to come by and modes of play rarely extended beyond the typical season and exhibition matches.
Yeah but that was the 8-16 bit era franchise is not fluff it's a necessity.It add's to the experience plain & simple I agree it's the best football game-play ever but it needs franchise.
 
# 55 Goffs @ 08/13/08 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blzer
Who typed this? I don't mean to not be on the topic at hand, but "could of" instead of "could have?" And the other announcer is Peter, not Keith.

But yes, APF 2K9 really could have been special.
8lzer thats an awesome avatar lol

oh and i wish they had a 2k9 as well

BAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW
 

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