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Madden 16: Is Connected Franchise Sacrificing Realism? (Roundtable)

Last week, we learned a ton about what Madden NFL 16 is bringing to the table when it comes to connected franchise mode. Several intriguing new features are coming, which will include a visual depth chart and a new weekly goal system. However, it is in that latter feature where the staff finds its biggest hang-up with the announcement of the mode. Is Madden sacrificing realism to create a more RPG like experience in Connected Franchise? We discuss after the jump!

Ben Vollmer: Unfortunately, this year's slate of changes have done nothing to convince me that Madden is looking to become more simulation and less arcade. There is a ton of examples of over-thinking what should be a simple process.

Player performance should dictate player progression, not a series of arbitrary goals (which one can only muse will be something like: "achieve two sacks with X player!"). There are so many things that go into playing a good game of football that it seems silly for it to all boil down to a few player goals. It marginalizes the team aspect of the game and puts far too much emphasis on stat-padding.

For instance, lets look at the example given in the release: "Breakout Running Back." The "Breakout Running Back" goal will almost certainly have an arbitrary number attached to it - let's say 1,000 yards rushing in a season. All that serves to do is promote an unrealistic style of team management in which you're doing everything in your power to achieve that goal for better player growth. Why not, instead of the whole goal system, have player progression be dictated by all-around performance and playing time? Rushing for 1,000 yards doesn't make my running back a better player, especially if that's coming at 2.0 YPC. It just means that I, the user, spam-rushed the ball in order to achieve some silly goal.

In the end, there's still a lot we don't know about the goal system (the vernacular used seemed almost intentionally vague), so it's best to hold off on judgement for now. Though, if the past is any indication, Madden 16 may do more to push players away from realism than it does to pull them toward it.

The details we are seeing from EA so far on Connected Franchise leave me with mixed emotions.

Jeremy Chisenhall: I really like the Sim-A-Win feature because it can allow me to control division races, and the Combine Stats so I can get a better look at potential draft picks. However, the goals system sounds like it is going to make progression even less realistic than it already was, as users will be earning XP more quickly to upgrade their players even faster. Not only that, but achieving little goals aside from winning games to earn extra boosts gives the game more of an RPG feel than a simulation football feel.

Aside from the lack of movement towards a more simulation game, the Free Practice mode is just another example of Madden taking something away just to advertise it as a selling point in a later release.

I'm sure the mode will still be fun to play, but the "weekly goals" and the additions of features that should have already been there shows that this series still is not where it should be.

Kevin Groves: As with most Madden news these days, I'm left with conflicted feelings. On one hand you have the welcome additions (or re-additions depending on how you look at it) of Sim-to-Win, Free Practice, and visible Scouting Reports. On the other hand you have the RPG-esque goal system which, IMO, takes steps away from a simulation based approach and could possibly lead to players focusing their efforts on solely trying to achieve these outcomes as opposed to incorporating realistic football strategies. Perhaps a better solution could have been a combination of these weekly/in-game RPG elements with a yearly, user selected set of goals. For example, I would haved loved to take over the Bucs and set a realistic goal for Jameis Winston along the lines of throwing for at least 3,000 yards, positive TD/INT ratio, increase in wins from the year before, etc.

Team based yearly performance goals (e.g. a +40% 3rd down conversion %, positive giveaway/takeaway turnover ratio, etc.) would also be a welcome addition as would be a more finely tuned regression system.

It's still early in the news cycle for Madden 16 so there's still hope for further expansions to Connected Franchise. The re-introduction of Formation Subs would go a long way towards gaining positive momentum for this franchise.

Chris Sanner: I'll just say this, we are early in the cycle and who knows what exactly the weekly goals are going to do. Its possible we are going in a fully RPG and not quite realistic route -- but it could be a fun mini-game within your connected franchise experience as well.

What does bother me though, is that you could take the news of the player confidence fluctuating and really come up with some fantastical scenarios that could really mess with the rating. If I'm Demarco Murray and I rush for 250 yards, but I fumble twice -- is my confidence up or down? What if I rush for 99 yards, one short of my game goal -- does that mean I'm less confident now?

Outside of that, at least getting that information to you on a more accessible basis is a good thing. However, I do fear the goals are going to be completely stupid at times. If I'm the head coach, I don't want a goal telling me to pass for 50 yards on this drive after running the ball down my opponents throat -- and if I don't meet it while scoring a touchdown my team's confidence goes down. Nuts.

Everything else sounds ok, but there's nothing in the release that I'd go out on a limb and say it's going to change how we play sports games. Connected Franchise is still an intriguing mode, but I fear it's trying to do too much, when the experiences within could be better tailored in a separate manner.


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Member Comments
# 61 seanhazz1 @ 06/02/15 01:22 PM
This is a move to a more moderate player performance based system as opposed to the "gift" system from Madden 15. Our players will not get better unless they play in game, as it should be, as in the real NFL. That they added an incentive for extra confidence/xp is still better than the FREE confidence players got in 15.
Its almost like some people are complaining that they won't be able to build their super team as easily.

Under the current system, the rich get richer, and those who have won an online Madden league know what that means. No gift XP or confidence for just being on the team sitting on the bench. It should be hard to take a rookie from 75-99 in 3 seasons and last year allowed you to do it easily in one, especially if you won the Superbowl, you could make every bench rookie a star over night. That had to stop with all the Free XP/confidence at the top, and was unrealistic.

I'd say the average hardcore online Madden league lasts 4 maybe 5 seasons between release(I'm in a 5 and a 6 yr progressed league), with an every other day advance. How do you make the playing field fair for players "stuck" with lower market teams if the better teams always get better, through current TEAM goals associated with playoffs and Superbowl (how many Jaguar champions do you see in online connected careers)?. Owner mode finance tuning will help along with the XP/confidence updates for the players. A team is the sum of its parts, so individual goals, help the team a whole. IMO, The team goals/rewards should be owner/ coach/trainer/scout related only.

The drive goals can appear dubious, but how do you know it wasn't there all along in some way as a background process, and was just hidden from view? Not everyone will meet the goals, and some will, through normal game play and play calling schemes. If you decide to play for the goals, then it can become a mini-game for you inside the game, as someone mentioned, but could come at a loss of the game or other goal challenges. This also appears to be supplemental to normal xp/confidence gains.

If a players wants to 'stat stuff' like Brady-Moss in 07 as some have mentioned', well that's no different from the way players play now, as online commissioners frequently have anti-stat stuffing and fair play rules just to combat it, as players will still 'stat stuff'for LEET XP, but usually because they can afford to based on game situation (blowout) or because they are driven to it through opponent's game play.

Sim-to-Win, Free Practice, Combine Stats, and visible Scouting Reports are all welcome additions/re-additions to the franchise, that should have always been there in CFM.

I see the Connected career updates as a move to a MORE SIM template than last years version, that provides a more fair way to advance teams in lower markets with good players, and create a sense of parity.

In the end, sim is a way of playing the game between like-minded individuals or groups, represented through a matchup of contrasting styles played out on the field, and not some special button or game mode that is the responsibility of EA. These sim people don't need a mode or feature to do this and already know how to "keep it real"

Would you rather earn "Badges", that trump every players individual playing skills with a 'magic badge of clutch skill' he suddenly earned in game? I wouldn't as, that's more even more arcade-like IMO.
 
# 62 Jr. @ 06/02/15 01:59 PM
When they made the decision to use performance to enhance ability, they sacrificed realism. Performance is a reflection of progression, not the other way around.

No one learns to catch a ball better because they had 1,000 yards receiving.

They have the tail before the head.
 
# 63 DeuceDouglas @ 06/02/15 02:01 PM
I've said it before but I can live with XP. XP is just the medium in terms of progressing players. I could give or take on being able to pick and choose what you progress. On one hand I like the freedom but on the other I do feel like you should only be able to increase attributes relevant to the skills at that position. Speed, strength, acceleration, agility, pretty much all physical attributes shouldn't vary that much but I wouldn't have a problem with them changing a little bit if it was based on something like a good or bad strength and conditioning coach.

The idea of my player scoring three touchdowns being the reason he gets better is where it gets lost. If XP was divvied up to players through OTA's and Training Camp practices and the amount was based on some sort of hidden player potential as well as a coaching staff then I wouldn't have a problem with it at all. I just don't like goals at all and have no desire to ever attempt to accomplish them. It almost seems like they're trying to circumvent any kind of off-season or personnel depth by just bundling it all into goals and, yes, that is sacrificing realism and depth among other things.
 
# 64 4thQtrStre5S @ 06/02/15 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by charter04
I don't think people are complaining about having control I think is the unrealistic way we can control players.

A real coach can control coaching the players and training them but, they can't automatically make every player on the team better just by winning or completing goals.

Example. In the online CFM I'm in you really don't have to worry about having a QB. There usually 2-5 superstar development QB's in every draft and it only takes about one season to get them to 90 overall or higher. So we have about 5-10 99 overall QB's in our league. Russell Wilson now has 99 THP.

The point is not having control it's giving us realistic control. Make the things we can improve the players on lifelike.

I can only imagine how easy it would be to have a team of superstars if I was only playing the CPU in offline CFM. Should I have to give myself house rules, just for a mode that is supposed to be realistic, to be realistic?

And yes I agree that the Head Coach way would be close to Ideal for me as well. I thought with Josh Looman at the helm from M13 to M15 we would be getting more like HC09 but, it's been this XP stuff.

I can make the xp model work for me and I have fun in my league but, if things where done in a more real manner it would be that much more fun.

Right now it's just too easy to build a unrealistic super team by winning a few SB's.
I have been thinking about the number of players that have ratings in the 90 plus range, and it seems to me, from my observations in building a team in MUT and also how the precision modifier operates, that a player needs to have 90 plus in their key attributes to truly be open to the full array of animations, and these animations is what helps separate player ability at the noticeable level to the user; even in the original details of the precision modifier it was stated that players would need a 90 or higher ratings in juke or stiff arm or trucking, etc to take advantage of the precision modifier itself...

I am beginning to think that madden uses qualifying number points to determine when a player increases in ability and gains animations which allow for the increase in abilities - thus qualifying numbers would be like: 70, 80, 90; thus you will not see a difference between players who have ratings between, say, 70 to 79, but once they hit 80, there will be a noticeable improvement; then ratings between 80 and 89 will not see much separation of improved performance, but once you hit 90, there will be a difference in performance that can be noticed, mostly through animations available....(this is merely a hypothesis at this time)
 
# 65 JaymeeAwesome @ 06/02/15 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by capa
They are going backwards. Pretty soon it will be run for 2000 yards and unlock this player or that piece of equipment. All the stuff that the younger casual crowd gets off on that "realism" guys tend to despise.



I paid for the game. Just let me have access to everything! And the observation is spot on - goals will make cheesing and exploits a high priority again.



C

I know I am responding to a respond early in the thread but I wanted to clear up the idea of "Owning" the game upon payment. You actually don't own the game. You own a license to play the game. The game itself is still owned by EA.

Just like with Microsoft office. Just because you paid for Excel doesn't mean that you should have access to edit code to enhance your own experience. You have to use excel based on how Microsoft built it for you.

I think if people thought of it this way, there would be less complaints about how the game runs. Every year you pay $60 to update your license to the newest updates.
 
# 66 Sheba2011 @ 06/02/15 02:30 PM
I am not a huge fan of the over emphasis on goals. It is about as far from real life as you can get. Take my team for example: The Super Bowl Champion Patriots, during any given game Julian Edelman could be the centerpiece of the offense making 10+ catches for 100 yards or he could be used as a decoy making 0 catches. If the team wins it does not negatively affect him because he didn't catch the ball 3 times or score a TD. He doesn't become a worse player because of that. Player roles in real life change with each game plan.

Having said that I do think the changes to the scouting are more realistic than what we previously had, mostly because of the combine results being shown. There is still some work to be done but it is a good start and a change we haven't had in some time.
 
# 67 Sheba2011 @ 06/02/15 02:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom zoom
Honestly, I remember when the entire nature of career franchise play was considered anti-sim. There has never been a sports game, text-based or otherwise, that has exhibited the necessary AI to run a team over years. Heck, things go wonky in the first year unless a human steps in to fix it.

And the moment you give the gamer any impact on career progression of a player, realism goes out the freaking window. Realism is how front offices deal with the ebb and flow of player ability, not control it.

You want realism? That's guys dropping off our of nowhere. That's the highly rated FA you signed turning into scuffling albatross. That's the lowly rated minor league guy to cover for an injury turning into an MVP.

But you can't model that without angering the multitudes of fans that play the game. You would literally sell a game to a kid and then have a model in which occasionally, Mike Trout falls off the map. Do that in a game in which a player like Matt Carpenter comes out of nowhere to be a an MVP threat?

But yet, here we are, with grown men arguing about what's wrong with one of the least sim aspects of sports games as though it matters.

One of the reasons I liked NCAA Football over Madden for Online Dynasty play is that it was easier to accept because we were all just churning through players anyway. You were trying to squeeze a few good years out of a kid before he moved on. It wasn't realistic, it was just a nice base in which a competitive game cold be played among friends. The recruiting mini-game was the same.

Pro sports does not have the churn. The terrible simulation of career paths just magnifies and pretty much destroys any realism. But if you throw in some RPG stuff, simplify player movement via the draft and free agency, you can create a fun game to play with friends. But it's more like a board game that approximates realism, it doesn't simulate it.

The one fact every sim gamer ought to realize is that, for the consoles, every bit of realism that tracts from fun has to be replaced with an element to make it fun. That's the market. It's always been the market. There has never been a golden age of sports sims on consoles.

The golden age of sports sims was on the PC and, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, they were also highly flawed, and many found them boring. It would be asinine for EA, or any other company to adopt that mindset.

Sure, bring up The Show. Then compare its sales numbers to EA's MVP series. Boring games are boring.
I agree if a game was 100% real life sim most would fine it boring and tedious and would never play it. The number one complaint would be "why can't I edit my players".

But there is no reason that the game can't be a video game with realistic sim elements. A realistic progression system with no XP at all. A realistic scouting system that never shows you any ratings just metrics and scouting reports. Real life contracts, practice squad, compensatory picks, full coaching staffs. These are all things that could be added to make the game more sim while still being a fun football game.
 
# 68 charter04 @ 06/02/15 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoom zoom
Honestly, I remember when the entire nature of career franchise play was considered anti-sim. There has never been a sports game, text-based or otherwise, that has exhibited the necessary AI to run a team over years. Heck, things go wonky in the first year unless a human steps in to fix it.

And the moment you give the gamer any impact on career progression of a player, realism goes out the freaking window. Realism is how front offices deal with the ebb and flow of player ability, not control it.

You want realism? That's guys dropping off our of nowhere. That's the highly rated FA you signed turning into scuffling albatross. That's the lowly rated minor league guy to cover for an injury turning into an MVP.

But you can't model that without angering the multitudes of fans that play the game. You would literally sell a game to a kid and then have a model in which occasionally, Mike Trout falls off the map. Do that in a game in which a player like Matt Carpenter comes out of nowhere to be a an MVP threat?

But yet, here we are, with grown men arguing about what's wrong with one of the least sim aspects of sports games as though it matters.

One of the reasons I liked NCAA Football over Madden for Online Dynasty play is that it was easier to accept because we were all just churning through players anyway. You were trying to squeeze a few good years out of a kid before he moved on. It wasn't realistic, it was just a nice base in which a competitive game cold be played among friends. The recruiting mini-game was the same.

Pro sports does not have the churn. The terrible simulation of career paths just magnifies and pretty much destroys any realism. But if you throw in some RPG stuff, simplify player movement via the draft and free agency, you can create a fun game to play with friends. But it's more like a board game that approximates realism, it doesn't simulate it.

The one fact every sim gamer ought to realize is that, for the consoles, every bit of realism that tracts from fun has to be replaced with an element to make it fun. That's the market. It's always been the market. There has never been a golden age of sports sims on consoles.

The golden age of sports sims was on the PC and, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, they were also highly flawed, and many found them boring. It would be asinine for EA, or any other company to adopt that mindset.

Sure, bring up The Show. Then compare its sales numbers to EA's MVP series. Boring games are boring.
Well the thread is about if EA is sacrificing realism. The answer in my opinion is yes. Now is a football game fun if it's 100% realistic? Maybe. If you could chose what area's that you control and what area's you let be simulated.

I'm fully aware that Madden is a game. I even said that I have fun with it. I was just answering the question and discussing if they are Sacrificing Realism.
 
# 69 bigeastbumrush @ 06/02/15 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Death
Chris brings up a valid question here... say the goal is 100 yards for the HB, but what happens if he rushes for 99 yards but makes a key block on the game-winning TD pass, saving the QB from getting sacked? {A la Walter Payton back in the day when McMahon came off the bench to beat the Vikes.}

This whole goal system is geared towards casual gamers and leaves those wanting a true sim game out in the cold.
You say this as if the actual NFL gives some points for making a key block.

I think the system is fine. In every game, players will develop faster than others.

I think some of you simply want ultimate reality forgetting sometimes that it is simply a game.

A game that most will play for a few months, shelf it and then buy the new version next summer.
 
# 70 DeuceDouglas @ 06/02/15 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeastbumrush
You say this as if the actual NFL gives some points for making a key block.

I think the system is fine. In every game, players will develop faster than others.

I think some of you simply want ultimate reality forgetting sometimes that it is simply a game.

A game that most will play for a few months, shelf it and then buy the new version next summer.
I'm sure most people are completely aware that it's a game. It's not about "ultimate reality", it's about something that actually resembles reality.

Could you imagine watching some NFL Films show with a mic'd up coach where he goes up to his running back stretching before a game and says "We need you to run for 100 yards and three touchdowns today or you're not going to get any better".
 
# 71 vrtkolman @ 06/02/15 04:24 PM
I have long since accepted that the direction EA is taking Madden is not what I want in a sim football game. First it was XP and being able to increase attributes that shouldn't be able to be increased (speed?). Now the RPG system has been further implemented with these new goals during games. Most games are going this route now.

I'm surprised they haven't brought back player roles yet, like Road Grader or Team Leader (I think Madden 2008 had these). These would further the RPG aspect but also would make sense in a sim enviornment as it would help differentiate players with similar attributes.
 
# 72 Rocky @ 06/02/15 04:57 PM
They just need to take NCAA's Dynasty Mode and modify it for the NFL.
 
# 73 SolidSquid @ 06/02/15 05:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky
They just need to take NCAA's Dynasty Mode and modify it for the NFL.
Give us the coaching carousel already. Let us hire offensive and defensive coordinators, then let other teams sign them away to be head coaches if they are good enough.
 
# 74 lgxjames @ 06/02/15 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanhazz1

The drive goals can appear dubious, but how do you know it wasn't there all along in some way as a background process, and was just hidden from view? Not everyone will meet the goals, and some will, through normal game play and play calling schemes. If you decide to play for the goals, then it can become a mini-game for you inside the game, as someone mentioned, but could come at a loss of the game or other goal challenges. This also appears to be supplemental to normal xp/confidence gains.
Good point.
 
# 75 Dr Death @ 06/02/15 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeastbumrush
You say this as if the actual NFL gives some points for making a key block.

I think the system is fine. In every game, players will develop faster than others.

I think some of you simply want ultimate reality forgetting sometimes that it is simply a game.

A game that most will play for a few months, shelf it and then buy the new version next summer.
Here is the You Tube highlight of the McMahon pass and the key block by Payton. You hear the announcers talking about how Payton picked up the blitz, enabling McMahon to get the TD pass away.

I don't know how I can be more clear, I felt this was a play engrained in everyone's mind. Maybe not. But here it is in the first minute of the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvcfAW42ClQ
 
# 76 bigeastbumrush @ 06/02/15 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas
I'm sure most people are completely aware that it's a game. It's not about "ultimate reality", it's about something that actually resembles reality.

Could you imagine watching some NFL Films show with a mic'd up coach where he goes up to his running back stretching before a game and says "We need you to run for 100 yards and three touchdowns today or you're not going to get any better".
It's an achievement. Why look at it any other way?

You have random midweek practices that affects a player's development and performance as well, no?

If a player hits an incentive, he has a greater opportunity to develop.
If he doesn't, then he won't.

I've gotten a player up to a 99 rating and it doesn't change the output of the game.

Why over analyze it?
 
# 77 4thQtrStre5S @ 06/02/15 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigeastbumrush
It's an achievement. Why look at it any other way?

You have random midweek practices that affects a player's development and performance as well, no?

If a player hits an incentive, he has a greater opportunity to develop.
If he doesn't, then he won't.

I've gotten a player up to a 99 rating and it doesn't change the output of the game.

Why over analyze it?
I haven't seen too much difference between players and ratings; a player with a 99 overall compared to a player with maybe an 85 overall or so is really only going to have an advantage of maybe a couple plays a game, and then it may be up to the user to take advantage of the few opportunities that come about.

The difference in the NFL between a Pro Bowl player and a backup is really a couple of plays, as far as I have witnessed..
 
# 78 XtremeDunkz @ 06/03/15 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayD
MUT and online is ruining CFM.
false. Online CFM players hate xp too
 
# 79 4thQtrStre5S @ 06/03/15 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by XtremeDunkz
false. Online CFM players hate xp too
MUT is actually really fun, and I put off really giving it a chance for some time...Now I am having fun with Walter Payton as my QB, through a special, out of position, card release; then I have Emmitt Smith as my HB; talk about a serious Option threat...

The cards and collecting really add something to the game for me; especially many of the legend cards...
 
# 80 LorenzoDC @ 06/03/15 01:29 PM
I agree this announcement shows the CCM mode is not developing with sim player priorities in mind. The goal ticker is intrusive to the sim gamer, and what you see on the screen is the essence of the gamer experience.

I won't name it, but we all know another sports game in the last year that created a fully realized franchise type mode for the sim player, including a long list of wished for features from the sim community over the years. This announcement from the Madden team is nothing like that, and that's telling.

CCM - the frankenstein child of Franchise Mode - is/was the one mode most targeted historically to the sim gamer. Madden has never fully embraced the sim gamer and, in spite of some romantic sounding noises in the last couple of years, EA still gonna EA. Madden, unlike other sports games, is not very big outside of the US, and they think they need to expand sales by getting more casuals. CCM is being steered in that direction, making players like fantasy league players pushing individual stats.

I didn't buy (or even play) the game last year after deciding to wait a couple of weeks for community feedback, ignoring the pre-release hype. Really glad I made that decision. Turns out, after pulling the plug, I'm a gamer who didn't miss the game.

Still, I hoped it might get better this year and be worth checking out. But instead, it looks to me like I won't even have to wait for post release feedback. I think I know what I need to know, and won't buy the game again this year.
 


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