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The State of the Association

There is an ongoing basketball gaming dilemma.

Every year 2K Sports and EA Sports battle it out to become the king of the basketball universe. In fact, besides trading blows when it comes to features and gameplay, they seem to be recruiting the most talented developers like they are head coaches going after McDonald's All-American players. For example, Mike Wang was originally a NBA 2K developer. He went to the NBA Live/Elite franchise but then returned to 2K after finishing development on NBA Live 10.

The point is these companies want to be the best around. The dilemma is that basketball games are really hard to make.

EA Sports Basketball

NBA Live 10 made a lot of positive strides last year. I even felt it was close to reclaiming a crown it had not worn on its head in years. In all honesty, to even be considered for basketball game of the year was quite an accomplishment for the NBA Live series.

The court spacing was there. The perimeter play had some nice functionality to it. The passing and cutting were crisp, and the offensive attack to the rim took a page out of 2K’s blueprints. Throwing one down with Superman actually felt more rewarding in Live 10 than in NBA 2K10. You could feel Dwight’s power pull on the rim and rattle the hoop via the sound design and rumble of the controller.

So I can’t help but wonder what NBA Live 11 would have been like had the series stayed on the original path. Regardless, this is a transitional year for EA’s team. And, unfortunately, scrapping the classic (though, yes, somewhat tainted) NBA Live franchise for a new rebranded look and feel in a span of an estimated 11 months -- all while the competition signs Air Jordan -- is not a good turn of events.

I have played through the NBA Elite demo. The demo is bare. It feels unfinished and even looks unfinished when you take the court for a five-on-five game. The controls also remind me of a repackaged Freestyle control scheme that was marketed to us way back when -- repackaged with the EA Sports patented "X" factor, renamed and resold.

In theory, a control scheme for the human body in a video game sounds great, but I just don’t know if it makes a whole lot of sense for a basketball title. I’m a big advocate of pushing the limits and boundaries of controls -- that’s the reason why I still believe in the Skate franchise and gave Skate 3 a high review score. The controls in that game are just so deep and intuitive that the game continues to amaze you many weeks and months later. And, if you remember back to the original Skate, most people will tell you that the controls just clicked with them from the very start.

Maybe the Skate 3 controls were something the NBA Elite team looked at ahead of time. In Skate, the left bumper controls the left arm, right bumper controls the right arm. The left analog stick is your board and direction, and the right analog is your torso. These are amazing controls. But in a game of skateboarding, you skate at your own pace. In basketball, the pace is dictated by 10 players moving in concert.



2K Basketball

In my original draft of this piece, and in my NBA 2K11 demo impressions, I spoke about the unresponsive feel to changing directions while playing on-ball defense. Well, the main source of my issue dealt with trying to play fundamentally sound defense without abusing the turbo. Little did I know that the turbo breaks you out of your stance so you can collapse on attackers. In other words, this game is deep and there is an element of trial and error.

In addition, I’m still in awe of some of the moves our own Momentous pulled off with Kobe. I mean signature Kobe Bryant moves on the fly? Are you kidding me with the footwork in this video? That was amazing and I’m still trying to pull off the patented Kobe ball fake, foot plant and spin -- though, perhaps it's a problem I haven't figured out how to pull it off yet.

For a basketball purist like myself, it would also be a nice surprise to see a basketball title that just flows. NBA 2K10, while brilliant in its own right, had problems in this department. And while NBA 2K10 had amazing features and endless animations, there was a degree of choppiness and clumsiness as well. NBA 2K11 seems to be clearing up this issue somewhat, but the point still needs to be made.

Controls and Momentum in Basketball Games

It would be great if Steve Nash hit guys in stride during their cuts to the hoop like a QB throwing a slant over the middle of a football field -- or like a lead pass in FIFA. I think this type of feel to the controls is necessary if you want to get the game flowing like it does in the FIFA or NHL series.

These games must continue to look at controls and ideas from all sorts of genres. Elite took a chance this year with their controls, but it doesn't mean analog controls are the only way to go. NBA Street Homecourt had some great dunking controls based on holding and timing the release of face buttons. Could this perhaps work in a game like NBA 2K11?

To me, the dilemma with basketball titles in the era of gaming we live in deals with physics and controls. Both titles this year really seemed to try and focus on these elements. Nevertheless, smooth transitions and body movements in a video game mapped to a set of joysticks is extremely hard to emulate.

So there is a sense of balance here that is truly a challenge for these basketball developers. Grant players the ability to break free from restrictions, and they will all become supermen who will destroy the ratings system. But if you attempt to make the game play like a real game of ball, you walk the fine line of potentially creating a slow gameplay style that lacks a certain element of fun.


NBA 2K11 Videos
Member Comments
# 21 NDAlum @ 09/25/10 08:56 PM
I was expecting a story about the Association lol
 
# 22 J-H!zZl3 @ 09/25/10 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDAlum
I was expecting a story about the Association lol
You aren't the only one who thought this at first...lol.
 
# 23 SBartlett @ 09/25/10 09:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocboyz101
lol fanatics always overreact...
I'm not sneaking anything into my posts I strongly believe that.
I liked lives jumpshooting alot more because the stars and most of the other players had much more accurate sig jumpers. And live had Great momentum shots meanwhile 2k10 did not. 2k10 had terrible jumpshooting, the terrible spacing and crazy closeouts ruined that part of the game. This year 2k11 looks to have the best jumpshooting ever..aswell as spacing.
I don't disagree with you on this one Rocboyz. Live 10's jumpshooting was more responsive and fun. Was it more realistic? Maybe, maybe not. It seemed like some guys caught fire for no reason, and the timing on the shots was so random and ratings based. Even when I felt I hit the groove with one player's stroke, wide open looks weren't falling. Now maybe this was the game balancing out the previous two 3's I hit with a player. I think that the DNA really influenced this aspect and detracted from the game's shooting - but it was very minor. In NBA2K10, pulling fade aways off and momentum jumpers are clunky. Meaning: I see an opening on the floor that I want to drive to and take a jump at but the time my player goes through the animation of dribbling to the open space, gathering, and going up, my shot is contested; sometimes even I wound up in the wrong spot on the floor so that was discerning. But, 2K10 did have the edge with the timing and release points on the shots in my opinion. Signature style shots felt about the same to me. I think I would give 2k10 the edge there because of all their great free throw routines - great detail in there. But Live definitely had a nice tight, and responsive feel to your ballers out there and I think that's why so many people enjoyed it - even though it doesn't mirror NBA basketball as much as 2K10 does
 
# 24 stlstudios189 @ 09/25/10 09:48 PM
I don't really understand BB much but, I still play the crap out of NBA 2k series
 
# 25 Carrington618 @ 09/25/10 11:25 PM
here is my list Jordan vs Bird, double dribble , lakers vs celtics sig shots one player on the team ,bulls vs next 2 , tecmo basketball first game with seasons (well just one) Nba showdown 94 break the back board glass, LIVE 95 ,96 on sega, 97 ps one , 98, 99 lock out , nba 2k on dreamcast 2k 1 first on -line bball console game, 2k 2 , 2k 3 first game with zone D, back to live 04 the freestyle was great after a year live 05 best ever on pc live 06 then bac to 2k07 sig shots on xbox. 2k 8 2k 9 2k10, 2k 11 on PS 3 first console on-line game in 3D with motion controls thats how i ben getting down for the last 20+ years
 
# 26 SDJHood93 @ 09/25/10 11:37 PM
Nice article. Really makes me appreciate what these people do to give us a great basketball year in and year out.
 
# 27 kennyacid @ 09/25/10 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NDAlum
I was expecting a story about the Association lol
i was thinking the same thing lol
 
# 28 jordankobewade7 @ 09/26/10 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocboyz101
lol fanatics always overreact...
I'm not sneaking anything into my posts I strongly believe that.
I liked lives jumpshooting alot more because the stars and most of the other players had much more accurate sig jumpers. And live had Great momentum shots meanwhile 2k10 did not. 2k10 had terrible jumpshooting, the terrible spacing and crazy closeouts ruined that part of the game. This year 2k11 looks to have the best jumpshooting ever..aswell as spacing.
Ok then I agree with the momentum jumpers and the fact that 2k10 did have crazy closeouts and super recovery speed all around...but the jumpers in live don't let the players get off the ground,especially the default shot,the player didn't even jump at all,and if they did it was credit card vertical...lol...and I'm no fanatic,I loved both games at a point,like last yr was great...
 
# 29 jordankobewade7 @ 09/26/10 12:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBartlett
I don't disagree with you on this one Rocboyz. Live 10's jumpshooting was more responsive and fun. Was it more realistic? Maybe, maybe not. It seemed like some guys caught fire for no reason, and the timing on the shots was so random and ratings based. Even when I felt I hit the groove with one player's stroke, wide open looks weren't falling. Now maybe this was the game balancing out the previous two 3's I hit with a player. I think that the DNA really influenced this aspect and detracted from the game's shooting - but it was very minor. In NBA2K10, pulling fade aways off and momentum jumpers are clunky. Meaning: I see an opening on the floor that I want to drive to and take a jump at but the time my player goes through the animation of dribbling to the open space, gathering, and going up, my shot is contested; sometimes even I wound up in the wrong spot on the floor so that was discerning. But, 2K10 did have the edge with the timing and release points on the shots in my opinion. Signature style shots felt about the same to me. I think I would give 2k10 the edge there because of all their great free throw routines - great detail in there. But Live definitely had a nice tight, and responsive feel to your ballers out there and I think that's why so many people enjoyed it - even though it doesn't mirror NBA basketball as much as 2K10 does
I def agree too that fadeaways were clunky and looked/felt weird in 2k,but jumpshots themselves I felt were better because of what you said about the players being on fire. In 2k10 I felt I could catch fire just by getting a good feel for the stick and just getting consistant good looks. But in live 10 idk if it was just the way the ball falls through the net,(probably is)but the jumpshots feel scripted,like if the game knew it was going in as it left my hand,it was really apparent in 09,playing online especially I could tell you exactly whether or not it would fall,the arc was way up on made jumpers,which weren't extremely different in live10. It was wayyyy less obvious,but playing enough it was there. So that's another thing that irritated for me.

What about association tho?what do you guys have to say about lives lack of improvement or major additions to dynasty since around '05...that's 6yrs,including this year,since I'm almost sure nothing got touched this year either. That's a long time,and just plain unacceptable inmy book
 
# 30 SBartlett @ 09/26/10 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordankobewade7
I def agree too that fadeaways were clunky and looked/felt weird in 2k,but jumpshots themselves I felt were better because of what you said about the players being on fire. In 2k10 I felt I could catch fire just by getting a good feel for the stick and just getting consistant good looks. But in live 10 idk if it was just the way the ball falls through the net,(probably is)but the jumpshots feel scripted,like if the game knew it was going in as it left my hand,it was really apparent in 09,playing online especially I could tell you exactly whether or not it would fall,the arc was way up on made jumpers,which weren't extremely different in live10. It was wayyyy less obvious,but playing enough it was there. So that's another thing that irritated for me.

What about association tho?what do you guys have to say about lives lack of improvement or major additions to dynasty since around '05...that's 6yrs,including this year,since I'm almost sure nothing got touched this year either. That's a long time,and just plain unacceptable inmy book
Yeah scripted is probably the best way to describe some of the shots in Live10 - but it still felt fun and responsive. As far as the Association Mode vs. Live's GM mode, EA's team focused on rebuilding the framework of their game play it would seem. I actually had a conversation with Ian Cummings on this in Madden as well. You know, the studios took a gamble focusing on game play this year in Madden so much and they are aware that they ignore the dynasty/franchise mode.

It's a gamble the development team takes, and perhaps upper mangt. has influence here as well. It goes to show you that a 12 month dev. cycle is not enough to cover all the bases. When they release a game, typically they work on a few patches while beginning the new project. So it's easily less than 12 months.

So as a dev. team, you focus on goals you lay out. In the case of Elite, I am assuming it was revamping the physics and controls - a major major task. I still don't think it's complete! Even with the release of this title. So that's a problem. If they were to have another 4 months maybe, and release the game near the All-Star break, maybe we are looking at a better title - who knows.

NBA Live 10's dynasty was sad, though. All the incoming rookies had the same face...lol. Clearly something is going on in that studio that isn't good. They need help and direction...and more time.
 
# 31 Fngb3 @ 09/26/10 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SBartlett
Yeah scripted is probably the best way to describe some of the shots in Live10 - but it still felt fun and responsive. As far as the Association Mode vs. Live's GM mode, EA's team focused on rebuilding the framework of their game play it would seem. I actually had a conversation with Ian Cummings on this in Madden as well. You know, the studios took a gamble focusing on game play this year in Madden so much and they are aware that they ignore the dynasty/franchise mode.

It's a gamble the development team takes, and perhaps upper mangt. has influence here as well. It goes to show you that a 12 month dev. cycle is not enough to cover all the bases. When they release a game, typically they work on a few patches while beginning the new project. So it's easily less than 12 months.

So as a dev. team, you focus on goals you lay out. In the case of Elite, I am assuming it was revamping the physics and controls - a major major task. I still don't think it's complete! Even with the release of this title. So that's a problem. If they were to have another 4 months maybe, and release the game near the All-Star break, maybe we are looking at a better title - who knows.

NBA Live 10's dynasty was sad, though. All the incoming rookies had the same face...lol. Clearly something is going on in that studio that isn't good. They need help and direction...and more time.
Do you know if the limitations are more to do with man-power or something like syncopation. I mean to say, can they not improve on gameplay and franchise modes because they don't have enough people? Or is there some issue with upgrading both at the same time where they won't work together?

I'm just unaware of how game development works in that regard... I'm sure there's a reason they can't do both but I'm not sure exactly what it is...
 
# 32 SBartlett @ 09/26/10 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fngb3
Do you know if the limitations are more to do with man-power or something like syncopation. I mean to say, can they not improve on gameplay and franchise modes because they don't have enough people? Or is there some issue with upgrading both at the same time where they won't work together?

I'm just unaware of how game development works in that regard... I'm sure there's a reason they can't do both but I'm not sure exactly what it is...
I can't say since I don't develop games but I would think it's a combination of both time and man-power.
 
# 33 UntilTheNxtRnd @ 09/27/10 11:14 AM
I'm thinking now that for some reason the Devs picked the Lakers only so you can really see the full spectrum of the controls on offense via that sick video demonstration by Momentous. If that was the plan all along they got that off. But it still would of been nice to have a longer demo. But I guess they wanted to save the moment that hot girl you always wanted to see with it all out for the 5th of Oct instead of the demo. LoL. Tease!
 
# 34 josher898 @ 09/29/10 11:40 AM
cant wait for the game
 
# 35 josher898 @ 09/29/10 11:42 AM
cant wait for the game
 
# 36 Schnoop @ 09/29/10 11:53 AM
I think it is becoming a walk on the edge in making games more and more realistic. Because the closer you come to perfection the heavier the smallest deviation from realism will weigh. For sure I would love to have something in perfection but a little abstraction should be because otherwise you wouldn't enjoy the real game anymore or perhaps to a smaller extent.

I'm a die hard soccer fan and also quite interested in basketball. And of course there are flaws in FIFA, but it is OK to be in there. It is too easy to play some passes. The most signifcant flaw is that the AI will set you under pressure, even if you have the ball in your defence, constantly the whole game long. You wouldn't see that in a real soccer game. It will happen for a few minutes or phases during a game, but not the complete 90 minutes. I could go on for while but this will be too much.

For basketball I sometimes like the slight arcarde feel you have in the games. I like it being able to sometimes exploit the drive or the post. But on the other hand I like a realistic touch, e.g. a decent post game, and I also like realistic graphics. That's why NBA Jam can be a nice option once in a while but will never have the long term attraction for me as the other two have (same with FIFA Street). But I like the abstraction which is also in those games.
 

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