MLB The Show 17 News Post

MLB The Show 17 - Behind the Scenes "Playing Out of Position" Changes

03:56 PM - January 31, 2017 by Russell_SCEA

So yesterday we had a little game design round-table with everyone on how to handle playing out of position better. (First and foremost we weren't going to talk about this in a vlog or the streams. So that's why we are talking about this now.) We hope you guys enjoy this little behind the scenes look.

A little back story on how we got here, I sent an email to one of the programmers inquiring what could be done to A. make utility players more valuable, B. discourage people from playing guys out of position (especially in DD) to get more bats in the lineup, and C. make secondary positions matter more.

A few of us (I'm lying it was just me) wanted to go full napalm and just completely nerf anyone playing out of position which we currently do in some instances. However SS and 2nd baseman shouldn't get nerfed too bad playing other IF positions. But we all know that strong defensive SS for example could probably play a decent 2nd base if he had to, right?

That's the cliff notes version of how the round-table came to be. (fyi this all happened over the course of the last 3 work days Saturday, Sunday and Monday) After we all talked and hashed it out here's the email the lead programmer sent everyone after he made the changes based on the discussion. (There are no edits to the email just raw information enjoy.)

"I (Jeff lead programmer) just checked in the following changes:

� Gill (Lead Gameplay Producer you've seen Gill on all the Gameplay streams) and I made few changes to the out-of-position table to penalize guys a little more in certain combinations
� When calculating a fielder�s attribute when he�s out of position, it will now look at his secondary positions as well as his primary position and will calculate his attribute for each position he can play using the out-of-position chart. His attribute will be the highest of these values.
� Any fielder playing middle infielder that does not have at least one of the middle infielder positions as a primary or secondary position will now use the out-of-position double play turns, regardless of his fielding attribute after the out-of-position adjustment.
� Any left handed fielder playing C, 2B, 3B or SS will only receive 10% of their fielding attribute (which will force missed branches.)

Here are a few examples that is impacted by a couple of these changes:

Player A. on Houston is a 3B with LF and SS as secondary positions. His fielding ability is 83. I moved him to 2nd base. Using the old logic, he would have lost 40% of his attribute, leaving him as about a 49.

With the new logic, since player A. has SS as a secondary position, it uses the SS  2B penalty instead of the 3B  2B penalty, which is only 10%. We also take the extra 5% off because we�re basing this off of a secondary position, but even with a 15% penalty, he�s now only brought down to a 70 instead of 49. Also, since he has SS as a secondary position, he�s still allowed to use the normal double play turns.

Another example: player B. is a 3B with no secondary positions and a fielding ability of 84. I move him to 2nd base. A 3B playing 2B is penalized 40%, so that would leave him with an attribute of about 50. This is above the �low ability� cutoff of 30, so using the old logic, he would have been able to do the athletic double play turns. With the new logic, since he�s not able to play either of the middle infield positions, he�ll only use the out-of-position double play turns. Any of his other throws will still branch, but his DP turns will be significantly slower than a normal 2B.

Also, when Gill and I adjusted the chart, we made it so that no outfielder moved into the infield would end up with fielding ability above 30. This will ensure that outfielders playing in the infield are always treated as �low ability�. Unless, of course, they have a secondary infield position that causes them to get less of a penalty.

Disclaimer we are still testing and there is a possibility we might change things so nothing is concrete. (We aren't taking suggestions)However we hope you all enjoy this incoherent behind the scenes look at The Show take care.

Game: MLB The Show 17Hype Score: 9/10 - Vote Now
Platform: PS4Votes for game: 36 - View All

Member Comments

# 21 p00p1 @ 01/31/17 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell_SCEA


	Players already take attribute hits when they are playing fatigued.

Sorry, I meant it would be nice to show the degraded attributes visually when fatigued.

# 22 @legendm0de @ 01/31/17 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by p00p1


	Sorry, I meant it would be nice to show the degraded attributes visually when fatigued.

They won't have time to showcase that this year, I think is what he said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarlemYankee


	Good stuff Ramone... Does the same logic for SS & 2B apply to a CF who gets moved to a corner outfield spot? Your best, most rangy outfielder is always going to be your center fielder and CF who get forced to a corner outfield spot later in their career normally make the transition pretty seamless. If I were to, say, have Kevin Kiermeier but I went and made a trade for Kevin Pillar, he wouldn't get docked for having to switch to LF would he? It would almost seem like he'd actually get a boost in his defensive rating.

Yea, I look forward to route and jump out of position outfielders will get in this system, that was my basis for the question about reactions. I hope that we get that deer in the headlights facial expression when fly balls blasted to them.

# 23 TheCoastIsBen @ 01/31/17 07:47 PM

Russell, Thanks for the inside look. I know personally I check this site daily for any little morsel of information. So this made my day.

Obviously having dynamic stats on the lineup page before a game would be great but I'll take a revamped out of position player system any day.

# 24 JohnDoe8865 @ 01/31/17 08:12 PM

Just wanna chime in and give you a huge thanks Russell_SCEA. It's extremely rare that a developer, much less a lead developer gives the community this kind of insight into how the sausage is made, so to speak. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say, t's greatly appreciated and really unique to you and the SDS team.

# 25 jgb3 @ 01/31/17 08:26 PM

Russell - One of my concerns that I have as a frequent dynasty player is that is very hard to readily calculate a player's secondary position ratings (fielding & reaction) when doing a draft or searching for a trade target. It would be helpful if there was a way to target players who have a certain fielding rating at a given position.

# 26 Moss44 @ 01/31/17 09:16 PM

Russell, first thanks for being so inclusive of the OS community in all of your decision making. Second, having to do with primary/secondary positions, would it ever be feasible for you guys to allow us to give a player multiple primary positions, or maybe the ability to select specific distinct secondary positions for created and RTTS players? (For example if there is a shortstop utility player, rather than selecting IF/OF for him you could have his secondary positions be 2B/3B/LF/RF which isn't an existing combination)

# 27 Bobhead @ 01/31/17 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell_SCEA


	So yesterday we had a little game design round-table with everyone on how to handle playing out of position better. (First and foremost we weren't going to talk about this in a vlog or the streams. So that's why we are talking about this now.) We hope you guys enjoy this little behind the scenes look. A little back story on how we got here, I sent an email to one of the programmers inquiring what could be done to A. make utility players more valuable, B. discourage people from playing guys out of position (especially in DD) to get more bats in the lineup, and C. make secondary positions matter more. A few of us (I'm lying it was just me) wanted to go full napalm and just completely nerf anyone playing out of position which we currently do in some instances. However SS and 2nd baseman shouldn't get nerfed too bad playing other IF positions. But we all know that strong defensive SS for example could probably play a decent 2nd base if he had to, right? That's the cliff notes version of how the round-table came to be. (fyi this all happened over the course of the last 3 work days Saturday, Sunday and Monday) After we all talked and hashed it out here's the email the lead programmer sent everyone after he made the changes based on the discussion. (There are no edits to the email just raw information enjoy.) "I (Jeff lead programmer) just checked in the following changes: � Gill (Lead Gameplay Producer you've seen Gill on all the Gameplay streams) and I made few changes to the out-of-position table to penalize guys a little more in certain combinations � When calculating a fielder�s attribute when he�s out of position, it will now look at his secondary positions as well as his primary position and will calculate his attribute for each position he can play using the out-of-position chart. His attribute will be the highest of these values. � Any fielder playing middle infielder that does not have at least one of the middle infielder positions as a primary or secondary position will now use the out-of-position double play turns, regardless of his fielding attribute after the out-of-position adjustment. � Any left handed fielder playing C, 2B, 3B or SS will only receive 10% of their fielding attribute (which will force missed branches.) Here are a few examples that is impacted by a couple of these changes: Player A. on Houston is a 3B with LF and SS as secondary positions. His fielding ability is 83. I moved him to 2nd base. Using the old logic, he would have lost 40% of his attribute, leaving him as about a 49. With the new logic, since player A. has SS as a secondary position, it uses the SS  2B penalty instead of the 3B  2B penalty, which is only 10%. We also take the extra 5% off because we�re basing this off of a secondary position, but even with a 15% penalty, he�s now only brought down to a 70 instead of 49. Also, since he has SS as a secondary position, he�s still allowed to use the normal double play turns. Another example: player B. is a 3B with no secondary positions and a fielding ability of 84. I move him to 2nd base. A 3B playing 2B is penalized 40%, so that would leave him with an attribute of about 50. This is above the �low ability� cutoff of 30, so using the old logic, he would have been able to do the athletic double play turns. With the new logic, since he�s not able to play either of the middle infield positions, he�ll only use the out-of-position double play turns. Any of his other throws will still branch, but his DP turns will be significantly slower than a normal 2B. Also, when Gill and I adjusted the chart, we made it so that no outfielder moved into the infield would end up with fielding ability above 30. This will ensure that outfielders playing in the infield are always treated as �low ability�. Unless, of course, they have a secondary infield position that causes them to get less of a penalty. Disclaimer we are still testing and there is a possibility we might change things so nothing is concrete. (We aren't taking suggestions)However we hope you all enjoy this incoherent behind the scenes look at The Show take care.

Wow... This is fantastic. A huge step in the right direction. I agree with the basic premise 100%, which is that different transitions should be gauged differently. Your SS --> 2B example, the underlying rationale and the described result are all spot on.

If I had to come up with one concern, it would be that the penalty for being a lefty seems harsh. I know few lefties have played those positions but that is because of the extra time on transitions and throws, not because they can't catch. I like the idea of forcing them to miss branching animations, but I wouldn't like to see a high number of fielding errors just because they are lefty... You get what I'm saying?

Obviously this is a tiny problem in practice since most people will never notice the lefty penalty (since most people will never play a lefty in those positions in the first place. A very tiny quibble in the long run since there aren't actually any lefties at these positions, but I can see the argument for someone making a weird player in RTTS or something.

tl;dr I think eliminate the fielding penalty and simply ban lefties from using any branch/transition animations at those positions. That seems like more than enough. Other than that, I love this idea a lot.

# 28 ninertravel @ 01/31/17 09:46 PM

Wait so will this mean we will finally be able to have a player have more then 1 secondary position? because I know it is possible because guys Like Prado and Zoberist are, yet we CAN"T edit any other player in that way.

the stupid CPU always changed their lineup after 1 innings because a guy's position is incorrect. you can't have a IF that is also ALL OF he has to be a LF then make him IF can be frustrating, because you can't have him at RF or CF without the CPU having a dummy spit and changing it after 1 innings

# 29 Speedy @ 01/31/17 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell_SCEA


	The way the game works now if you play anyone out of position (it changes if it's the 2nd and SS) after a ball is hit to them and when you see what happens you won't continue that behavior for very long.

So does this mean the reaction attribute is handled (% reduction) in a similar fashion to the fielding attribute?

Example...J.Doe is primary 2B but has 3B as a secondary so his fielding AND reaction attributes are both reduced by 10% if playing J.Doe as 3B.

# 30 Russell_SCEA @ 01/31/17 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speedy


	So does this mean the reaction attribute is handled (% reduction) in a similar fashion to the fielding attribute? Example...J.Doe is primary 2B but has 3B as a secondary so his fielding AND reaction attributes are both reduced by 10% if playing J.Doe as 3B.

If 3b is his secondary and he plays there he's only taking a 5% hit.

# 31 TattooedEvil @ 01/31/17 11:16 PM

I'd love to be able to play a prospect in the minors or spring at a position thats not his primary or secondary and be able to add it as his secondary after X amount of games. We all know a lot prospects changes positions 1,236 times. For instance. Christian Arroyo was drafted as a SS but he played 1/2 of last season at 3rd and now it will be his primary position....even now there's question as to if he may move to LF. So obviously if he's a 3B w/ SS in The Show i would love to play him like 1/3 of the season at LF to "equip" that position as another secondary.

# 32 Houston @ 02/01/17 12:20 AM

Here is a suggestion on how secondary positions could be given in MLB 17 so we can edit any fielder to play there actual positions they have played in there career not just what the player was given by roster creator/roster updates/default roster..

You have all the positions in a big square pop up screen and you let us check the squares of all the positions we want to give that player. This would allow us to finally give players the correct positions they actually play.

# 33 @legendm0de @ 02/01/17 12:34 AM

This is going to make utility players a treat, I wonder if this will have any effect at all on CPU roster building and lineup decisions. But I'm so glad to see for the last two years defense taking a big step upward for the game.

# 34 NDAlum @ 02/01/17 07:06 AM

I think this is a great move. People. We'd to realize it won't be a perfect system but the premise is perfect.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

# 35 Armor and Sword @ 02/01/17 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell_SCEA


	The way the game works now if you play anyone out of position (it changes if it's the 2nd and SS) after a ball is hit to them and when you see what happens you won't continue that behavior for very long.

That is great to hear Ramone. First off it makes roster building in franchise even more important long term, and guys like Brock Holt will have immense value as true "Johnny On The Spot” utility players. Finding guy’s like that can be a huge difference over the course of a season and managing injuries.

And of course....Diamond Dynasty. This will reduce the sheer amount of cheese in that mode. Want to play Edwin Encarnacion at 2B? Good luck.

# 36 Armor and Sword @ 02/01/17 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by @legendm0de


	This is going to make utility players a treat, I wonder if this will have any effect at all on CPU roster building and lineup decisions. But I'm so glad to see for the last two years defense taking a big step upward for the game.

YES!!!! I am a huge Brock Holt fan (incredible being a Yankees fan right?) But I love guy�s like him who play everywhere and are team players. This raises their importance big time.

# 37 Russell_SCEA @ 02/01/17 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b22gamer


	Ramone - I have seen in the past (In a fantasy draft Franchise Mode) where the roster logic seems broken for CPU-controlled teams. It assigns too many pitchers and not enough bench players to CPU controlled teams (25 man roster). I noticed this for the first time when I was playing against Pittsburgh and they had Jung-Ho Kang behind the plate. I guess there was an injury and they didnt have a backup Catcher on the active roster. This WAS a fantasy draft, just a coincidence that Kang was drafted by the Pirates.

What does this have to do with playing out of position?

# 38 @legendm0de @ 02/01/17 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell_SCEA


	What does this have to do with playing out of position?

Well I did once run into a CPU managed David Ross starting CF. I'll edit post if I can find video of it. It's was the 2014 edition though so maybe it's irrelevant and that's why I never uttered such a blasphemy here.

edit: video coming shortly lol

Attachment 130680

# 39 WaitTilNextYear @ 02/01/17 02:51 PM

While we're on the "out of position" train, it's also probably worthwhile to mention that the cpu logic burns through the backup catcher too aggressively. I can't even count how many times I've been in a game where the cpu pinch hits or runs for their catcher (or double switches) and, having already burned the backup as a pinch hitter, then brings in a non-catcher to play catcher. It's far too common of an occurrence and it goes way too smoothly. Maybe someone can back me up on this with some video evidence?

If it is to continue this way, it would be good to really make it an adventure back there with more passed balls and such.

# 40 MauerMorneau09 @ 02/01/17 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShowTyme15


	I like the new idea. I personally have always thought you guys should have sliders for each secondary positions in the editor for players. EXAMPLE: Lets say a player plays 1B as primary, but LF/RF are secondary positions it will look like this in the editor with sliders C - 0 1B - 99 2B - 0 3B - 0 SS - 0 LF - 77 CF - 5 RF - 80 A utility guy that plays all 4 infield spots and can play CF C - 0 1B - 55 2B - 75 3B -70 SS -82 LF - 15 CF - 75 RF - 10 These are just a few examples of what I'm trying to explain. Anything over 50% should show up as secondary positions on the player card. This actually helps when guys switch positions or try out new positions in real life. It allows us to adjust without having to change primary and secondary positions to make it work. A guy like Howie Kendrick has become somewhat of a utility guy. He can play 1B/2B/3B/LF 1B - 60 2B - 90 3B - 77 SS - 10 LF - 70 CF - 0 RF - 10

I would love to see this, I remember 2K used to do the exact same thing.

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