MLB The Show 16 News Post

MLB The Show 16 Bullpen Tuning Details in Patch 1.04

07:20 PM - May 4, 2016 by Brian SCEA

The following bullpen details were also added to the latest MLB The Show 16 1.04 patch.

CPU managers will let starters pitch slightly longer in various situations. They're less likely to pull starters over individual runners on base.
In simulated games, CPU managers will pull starters slightly sooner. I.e. games you sim on the front end and fast forward (both RTTS and manual).
When a closer hasn't played in 3 or more days, the CPU may make them play regardless of the save situation to give them work.
As a result of the two previous changes, starters will pitch fewer total IP (and IP/G), while relievers and closers will play more games.
Other changes to how CPU managers manage relief pitchers in certain situations. These are all tuning changes.

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Member Comments

# 21 SoxFan01605 @ 05/04/16 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian SCEA


	I don't know where else to put this, but these are some changes for the patch. At the time of the patch I had to move on to work on other fixes, so I couldn't clarify these details until now. * CPU managers will let starters pitch slightly longer in various situations. They're less likely to pull starters over individual runners on base. * In simulated games, CPU managers will pull starters slightly sooner. I.e. games you sim on the front end and fast forward (both RTTS and manual). * When a closer hasn't played in 3 or more days, the CPU may make them play regardless of the save situation to give them work. * As a result of the two previous changes, starters will pitch fewer total IP (and IP/G), while relievers and closers will play more games. * Other changes to how CPU managers manage relief pitchers in certain situations. These are all tuning changes.

This is excellent information. Thanks for the breakdown and all your work!

(and thanks to bcruise for his testing and great feedback as well!)

# 22 oldtimey @ 05/04/16 11:07 PM

You will greatly reduce the number of innings that your middle and setup relievers pitch if you always keep a "6th starter" in the long relief slot in your roster. Your middle and setup guys innings increase when they have to pitch earlier in the game than the 6th and when they pitch multiple innings when a game goes into extras. To keep a long guy in the LRP slot in a 12-man staff, you should only have 1 one SU pitcher. Though there are 2 slots, a LH/RH combo in these slots is not necessary. Just one guy, with stuff that will suffice to occasionally close games, should be in the one slot. You will need all 4 of the MRP slots filled. If you go to a 13-man staff or when rosters expand, fill the LRP slots before the SU slots to further take pressure of your MRP guys. You will find that the CPU now will only use your MRP in the 6th inning or later, keeping their appearances at 1 IP or less. Your relief staff's numbers will then be realistic at the end of the season. You might get relievers with 85 appearances, but you will not get any reliever with close to 100 IP.

# 23 Jr. @ 05/05/16 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian SCEA


	I agree, I'd like to work on this more. I'm curious what's important to people: totaled stats, individual game behavior, or situational behavior (division, playoffs, multi-game situations). CG and IP are an example of total stats, "managers pull starters too soon" is individual game, and the closer not getting enough work is a combination of total stats and situational behavior (i.e. the solution requires multi-game thinking). The problem is, every person I've asked this to will give me a different answer, so it's hard to know whether I'm working on something hard to notice instead of something more important. I'm guessing I can probably work on this two weeks at the most. I guess that calls for a poll? I'll follow up in a few weeks.

I would think that correct situational behavior would alleviate all of these, wouldn't it? A situation in a played game should play out the same way if it were the same situation in a sim, right?

I don't know if this is your area, Brian, but I would also imagine that adding L/R splits for pitchers would help a lot, too.

# 24 Smallville102001 @ 05/05/16 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian SCEA


	I don't know where else to put this, but these are some changes for the patch. At the time of the patch I had to move on to work on other fixes, so I couldn't clarify these details until now. * CPU managers will let starters pitch slightly longer in various situations. They're less likely to pull starters over individual runners on base. * In simulated games, CPU managers will pull starters slightly sooner. I.e. games you sim on the front end and fast forward (both RTTS and manual). * When a closer hasn't played in 3 or more days, the CPU may make them play regardless of the save situation to give them work. * As a result of the two previous changes, starters will pitch fewer total IP (and IP/G), while relievers and closers will play more games. * Other changes to how CPU managers manage relief pitchers in certain situations. These are all tuning changes.

Want few questions I have about this. 1. You said patch number that is already out so was that just missing from the patch notes? Or did you mean this was going to be in the next patch? 2. Will CPU use left righty matchups now? 3. Last thing will CPU pitchers not come out of the bullpen and pitch like 3 innings all the time?

# 25 Smallville102001 @ 05/05/16 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian SCEA


	I'll take a look at CG stats in general next time I have a chance. The stat depends heavily on subjective "borderline" criteria. The main focus of my changes were on IP/G and the fact that every starter would go an extra half inning per game. That adds up and heavily affects SV and G for relievers and also ends up potentially hiding other logic issues. The original problem was parts of this simming logic is shared for in-game manager decisions, so I had to fix things regardless of if I actually wanted to, in order to address in-game issues. In other words, in-game logic was pulling starters too soon for one set of reasons, sim logic was letting starters play a little too long for another set. I'll take another look but at the end of the day, you have to balance between IP, IP/G, SV, and G versus CG from what it sounds like.

Sounds like a lot of hard work keep up the great work you guys.

# 26 WaitTilNextYear @ 05/05/16 01:25 AM

Aww man, so you're saying I need to re-tune my SP stamina/RP stamina/manager hook sliders? lol, I had them perfect for the old AI. Oh well, thanks for the fixes.

# 27 Smallville102001 @ 05/05/16 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcruise


	Hmm...maybe not so fast on that hook/stamina slider combo bombing IP: Again, starter stamina minimum, hook maximum Spoiler That, honestly, is not bad. And I've had a few sims now that look very close to this as far as the leaders go. CG's have been very, very close to looking like real life numbers with this setting. I've probably got a little leeway to even lower hook or raise stamina to get a few more IP, and not throw anything too far out of whack. Definitely want to hear Tabarnes' thoughts on this since he's the sim guy.

You can get good starting IP with the starter stamina and hook slider before and after the patch but it also causes another problem that I have yet to find a way to fix. That is when you lower the starters IP those IP that they lose are not spread out evenly enough with the bullpen guys so you end up having way to many IP but bullpen guys and way to many games to. I have been running test tonight and ever time I get the starter IP down to a good amount then I am having a lot of bullpen guys with like 100-120 innings and guys pitching in like 130 games. Like I just did a sim with starter stamina at 3 and reliever stamina at 3 and hook at 10 and I had 23 guys with 200 or more IP not a bad number I think in a normal year you have about 30 guys. How ever 32 relief guys threw 80 or more innings with the most being 106.1. Last year in real life the most games innings by a relief pitcher was like 80-82. 27 guys threw 100 or more games out of the bullpen again last year most was only about 80 in real life. So if you get starter IP down then relief pitchers numbers go way way up. So right now it looks like the choice is either have way to many IP by starter or have way to many by relief pitchers. Also I think Closer are getting to many saves. Like ever sim I do I have at least one guy with 57-60 saves and a lot of games with 45-55. This games sim engine for team states and for hitting stats is just about perfect but its pitching stats could use some work. I guess that is not really unexpected though because in game CPU bullpen is like the only thing game play wise that is not just about perfect.

# 28 nomo17k @ 05/05/16 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian SCEA


	I agree, I'd like to work on this more. I'm curious what's important to people: totaled stats, individual game behavior, or situational behavior (division, playoffs, multi-game situations). CG and IP are an example of total stats, "managers pull starters too soon" is individual game, and the closer not getting enough work is a combination of total stats and situational behavior (i.e. the solution requires multi-game thinking). The problem is, every person I've asked this to will give me a different answer, so it's hard to know whether I'm working on something hard to notice instead of something more important. I'm guessing I can probably work on this two weeks at the most. I guess that calls for a poll? I'll follow up in a few weeks.

Is the "poll" officially open right now in this thread?

If so, I'd have to vote for individual game behaviour modified appropriately by situational behaviour, as both are equally essential. The total stats should follow real-life stats reasonably well, if CPU's starters/bullpen usage resembles real-life managers closer at all. (Note the British spelling of behaviour for emphasis.....)

For example, one of the reasons why CGs are high in game I think is that CPU manager tends to leave his starter in regardless of pitch count, when the team is up by 4 runs (or 5... am not exactly sure of the exact threshold) and the starter is allowing few runs... so some starters end up with pitch count of 140 or even 150 in those blow out games. Quite often I see those starters left in too long get exhausted (zero energy), start walking or getting hit hard in the 9th inning, only to end up creating a save situation and eventually relieved anyways (8.1 & 8.2 innings pitched....). This is from CPU vs. CPU games, and not simmed games though (although I hope manager AI isn't too different in those game modes...). There may be other criteria being used by CPU to decide whether to pull starter or not, but these days pitch count is rather strictly enforced (except in special circumstances... no hitters, etc.), which CPU manager should consider more...

Thank you Brian for great attention to detail as always! I hope the "two weeks" timetable is for a patch and not for the next year's game though...

# 29 KBLover @ 05/05/16 04:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bcruise


	Hmm...maybe not so fast on that hook/stamina slider combo bombing IP: Again, starter stamina minimum, hook maximum

Do you think just raising hook could be enough? I tried hook on 7 and started my game, then backed out so I can see the results.

I checked a couple boxes and saw some guys going just 5 or 6 innings despite good starts. Kershaw went 6 while allowing just 2 runs. He had 3 out of 4 CGs before that.

In game play, it didn't seem to mess with the AI too much. He took the starter out when getting into trouble with a 4-2 losing score, which seemed reasonable. Just one game, but I liked how it played as well as those few box scores I saw.

Yeah, I know, I can just manipulate back and forth between sim and no sim, but I don't want to add any more steps to my (limited) game time. I stay up (too) late as it is to play.

# 30 patssox2004 @ 05/05/16 09:15 AM

Excellent work brian, really promising for us realism guys.

# 31 Fcshuckers73 @ 05/05/16 09:45 AM

If you lower SP and RP Stamina for sims will it affect the SP/RP stamina when you play that team? Basically, if you lower the stamina significantly for simmed games, will the SP have full energy bar for his next start? I haven't had time to test, but I wouldn't want the opposing pitcher to have less energy when they play us because stamina is nerfed. It would be perfect if we only had to possibly increase hook slider for sims and not have to deal too much with the stamina.

# 32 Smallville102001 @ 05/05/16 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPU32


	check vault for my sliders just uploaded. they produce great sim stats. check marlins bullpen before you sim. 4-MRP and 1-SU. slider name is like: "2016 Quick Sim" - uoaded 5/5/2016

Just tried your sliders a few hours ago and relief pitchers still way to many games and innings pitched so your sliders don't fix this either.

# 33 econoodle @ 05/05/16 11:43 AM

awesome 'little big things'.
i like this as we usually don't know what patches entail when they say 'tuning', so this is cool.

next up. Lefty on lefty logic!

# 34 Threeebs @ 05/05/16 12:09 PM

Have to agree with Nomo here... gotta pick individual game behaviour as the number one but there must be a way to mix it with situational...

# 35 EWRMETS @ 05/05/16 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EWRMETS


	I think it's great a closer would have to get some work but is there a penalty if a reliever goes a long time without pitching?

Anyone know the answer to this?

# 36 tessl @ 05/05/16 01:32 PM

Interesting changes. I'm curious whether Brian is seeing the same low stolen base success rate I and others are seeing cpu vs cpu and if so, does he plan to address it in a patch?

Edited to say I'm seeing more realistic stolen base rates now.

# 37 JayD @ 05/05/16 02:24 PM

I was wondering about this. My last game I saw the CPU bring in their closer while they were down by 2 runs late in the game. I don't think I've ever seen this happen in the past.

# 38 JayD @ 05/05/16 02:58 PM

On another note, Has anyone seen the CPU start relief pitchers in the starting rotation? I don't mean long relief pitchers but mid to late inning guys? This has been an issue for a few years now.

# 39 countryboy @ 05/05/16 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD


	On another note, Has anyone seen the CPU start relief pitchers in the starting rotation? I don't mean long relief pitchers but mid to late inning guys? This has been an issue for a few years now.

Knight did a test franchise after the latest patch and didn't see it occur. Teams called up minor league starters to take the place.

I'm going to go through stats tonight and see if its happening in my franchise.

# 40 bcruise @ 05/05/16 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayD


	On another note, Has anyone seen the CPU start relief pitchers in the starting rotation? I don't mean long relief pitchers but mid to late inning guys? This has been an issue for a few years now.

This was one of my franchise sims from last night:

One guy in the league had 8. The rest had none. And Phelps is indeed a long reliever.

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