NBA 2K15 News Post

NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

12:09 PM - March 23, 2015 by RaychelSnr

NBA 2K15's fourth patch isn't available yet on Xbox One, but PlayStation 4 and PC owners have now had a week and a half to experience its effects.

Developer Visual Concepts hasn't published an official change log (and doesn't plan to, until Xbox One users receive the update), but Gameplay Director Mike Wang has already confirmed a few changes to NBA 2K15's shooting system on the Operation Sports forums...

Read More - NBA 2K15: Fixing Broken Shot Forms Exposes Flaw in Shooting System

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# 61 Sundown @ 03/25/15 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillfeelme


	Coach I agree with some of that but not all of it. If you create a system where perfect release equals 100%, then stick skills play a more bigger role than actual real life %'s. Basically the original post demonstrated that the game becomes unrealistic because a skilled user is able to make a player shoot much better if they are able to time their shot. I already realized this means your whole defensive strategy changes because you now have to defend non-shooters much differently because their shot is not glitched. Take a look at these Pacers numbers. The Pacers as a team shoot 42% when wide open occording to SportsVU and 35% when contested tight. So as a team they only are better 6.7% when open. I think they did this kind of study last year and it showed that the NBA as a whole only shoots 5% better on average when open. The CPU engine should be about as close you can to what you have shown, which is why I think they need to seriously look at getting rid of perfect success equals 99% success. They need individual ratings for open and when contested. All of this was found on NBA.com. This is looking at jumpers 10 feet or greater.

Note that the wide open percentages are MUCH closer to the 45% we had before. Hardly a single player shoots 60% wide open. Not even Kyle Korver. But now average shooters hit at 60% like they were all time greats.

I have to say that the new adjustments sound to be pretty broken. The game played fine before and wide open shots did go in if you had some rhythm going. Now they don't appear to resemble statistical reality any longer. I'm not sure what the justification was for these changes.

# 62 CaseIH @ 03/25/15 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bonium


	If they do fix the defense in 2k16 or 17 i hope they'll only fix if for offline modes. Otherwise they're just rewarding off ball defenders again. If they can't have separate sets of sliders, or whatever it is that's needed, for on/offline then i honestly hope they leave the defense as bad as it is. This is just my view as an online myteam player of course --> i don't want to be guarded by a team of cpu controlled 90+ ovr players that have flawless defensive ai.

Its not really about the AI Defense now, its about the user not being able to defend because of poor control over the player. If they make it so a user has control over their player I would think most everyone would play on ball. I do think the AI could be improved as far as help D goes, and taking charges, but as far as on ball D the AI plays that well, and really that area probably don't need adjusted. Its the inability for the human to control his player on Defense because of sliding and lack of control, hell fro that matter offensive players slide to much too.

It was perfect before this last patch, but it seems even worse now with lack of control. I don't play online, but offline even trying to play offball is difficult because of poor control over players, so it don't matter much whether your on ball which I prefer, or offball you will feel like your on ice.

I cant imagine them fixing this although it is odd that the xbox 1 users still haven't got a patch yet, so I guess there ight be some hope cause they might be looking at it. Otherwise I think they would have released it for them by now.

# 63 stillfeelme @ 03/25/15 05:40 PM

NBA.com has everything from a stats standpoint man they upgraded that site. It doesn't have all the flashy advanced stats but they have everything to gain details about players and teams

Say search for a player go to their profile, then there is a tracking, on the right side, select shots dash board. The little gear tab actually brings up more options where you can break down by months all season totals.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201166/tracking/shots/

You should see tabs that show FG attempts when open and contested for jumpers > 10ft.

# 64 mgrand15 @ 03/25/15 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundown


	Note that the wide open percentages are MUCH closer to the 45% we had before. Hardly a single player shoots 60% wide open. Not even Kyle Korver. But now average shooters hit at 60% like they were all time greats. I have to say that the new adjustments sound to be pretty broken. The game played fine before and wide open shots did go in if you had some rhythm going. Now they don't appear to resemble statistical reality any longer. I'm not sure what the justification was for these changes.

That's the crazy part. He said a DECENT shooter hits 60% wide open. What's the number for Kyrie? What's the number for Curry? 80%? 90%?

You said it best. 60% on wide open shots is legendary. Even for guys that only shoot from mid-range.

I don't have any data but when I played the Cavs and Dubs online - Curry and Kyrie didn't miss anything. In the 4th, I had to start doubling Curry after he crossed half court to get the ball out of his hands. I NEVER had to do that. The only reason it slightly worked was because Klay Thompson was injured.

# 65 stillfeelme @ 03/25/15 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundown


	Note that the wide open percentages are MUCH closer to the 45% we had before. Hardly a single player shoots 60% wide open. Not even Kyle Korver. But now average shooters hit at 60% like they were all time greats. I have to say that the new adjustments sound to be pretty broken. The game played fine before and wide open shots did go in if you had some rhythm going. Now they don't appear to resemble statistical reality any longer. I'm not sure what the justification was for these changes.

I agree they have to think about the changes before applying them. There are exceptions to the rule but you have to make sure you don't tip the scale one way then the game becomes unbalanced. It may be a way to correct this with sliders, real FG% but someone will still be left out if they can't use sliders to adjust online, myplayer game modes.

Beluba don't know if this is in but seriously need to get into 2K16's development open and contested ratings. STATS has it. NBA.com has. I hope they can fix 2K15 so I can play the game without using real fg%

# 66 Lord Bonium @ 03/25/15 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaseIH


	Its not really about the AI Defense now, its about the user not being able to defend because of poor control over the player. If they make it so a user has control over their player I would think most everyone would play on ball. I do think the AI could be improved as far as help D goes, and taking charges, but as far as on ball D the AI plays that well, and really that area probably don't need adjusted. Its the inability for the human to control his player on Defense because of sliding and lack of control, hell fro that matter offensive players slide to much too. It was perfect before this last patch, but it seems even worse now with lack of control. I don't play online, but offline even trying to play offball is difficult because of poor control over players, so it don't matter much whether your on ball which I prefer, or offball you will feel like your on ice. I cant imagine them fixing this although it is odd that the xbox 1 users still haven't got a patch yet, so I guess there ight be some hope cause they might be looking at it. Otherwise I think they would have released it for them by now.

Well, i don't really know what to say but i'm experiencing defense completely different. I feel like i'm in near total control, there's still the odd random animation to put me out of position but it rarely happens. To me it's the best it's been in years, i'm really able to lock people down right now. To me before the patch it was okay at best, right after the patch it was horrible and then suddenly (after i quit playing for a week or so) it was great, they must've made some tweaks at some point.

Maybe it's an offline thing. Even though i haven't really noticed this lack of control offline either. What i have noticed are that cpu players just go by you like you're not even there, that rarely happens online. There's generally a lot more bumping online as opposed to offline. Well, on defense anyway, obviously the cpu will bump you like crazy offline. But i've always just attributed that kind of thing to 2k's difficulty levels that might as well be called "levels of cheating cpu".

Help defense definitely needs improvement, i can agree with that much. Especially big men that come over to help and leave their assignments open under the basket even though the guy they intended to come help defend posed no threat at all.

# 67 CaseIH @ 03/25/15 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Bonium


	Well, i don't really know what to say but i'm experiencing defense completely different. I feel like i'm in near total control, there's still the odd random animation to put me out of position but it rarely happens. To me it's the best it's been in years, i'm really able to lock people down right now. To me before the patch it was okay at best, right after the patch it was horrible and then suddenly (after i quit playing for a week or so) it was great, they must've made some tweaks at some point. Maybe it's an offline thing. Even though i haven't really noticed this lack of control offline either. What i have noticed are that cpu players just go by you like you're not even there, that rarely happens online. There's generally a lot more bumping online as opposed to offline. Well, on defense anyway, obviously the cpu will bump you like crazy offline. But i've always just attributed that kind of thing to 2k's difficulty levels that might as well be called "levels of cheating cpu". Help defense definitely needs improvement, i can agree with that much. Especially big men that come over to help and leave their assignments open under the basket even though the guy they intended to come help defend posed no threat at all.

Im thinking there have been some tweaks to the game since this last patch. I just had a really good game in a NBA today game me the Pacers vs the Wizards, and it felt pretty good on both ends of the floor, I do have speed turned down to 45 for both me and the AI.

I have felt that I can feel a difference between the 2k official roster to my edited roster I made. I felt the past couple days that the official 2k roster played better than a edited roster. Wish 2k wasn't so secretive about tweaking rosters, as I would love to know if they have did it, cause I edied a roster back to opening night for My League, and now I think I might hve to do that all over as that edited roster doesn't play as well as the last couple official 2k rosters.

# 68 The 24th Letter @ 03/25/15 08:20 PM

I really liked the weak side defense in last years game....it may have even been a little overpowered with the amount of ground certain bigs made up, buy man was it fun to swat guys at the rim....the ball tracking was perfect...

# 69 CaseIH @ 03/25/15 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The 24th Letter


	I really liked the weak side defense in last years game....it may have even been a little overpowered with the amount of ground certain bigs made up, buy man was it fun to swat guys at the rim....the ball tracking was perfect...

I don't know how last years game played on the PS4, but both NBA2k14 and NBA2k15 on the PS3 shot blocking was better, you would get realistic #'s for teams in those 2 games, but since I made the switch to the PS4 a few eeks ago, I have been disappointed in shot blocking. Its basically impossible for you or the AI to have big shot blocking nights in this years game, The Computers is even worse at it than I am, so I know its not just me being bad at it. I think the most blocked ****s I have seen the AI have is 4 against me, and I think I had 7 or 8 1 game, but to have 1 of thise nights where your team or a player gets into double digits in blocked shots I would say is nonexistent this year, which is frustrating. I will be happy when MLBTS15 get here, than way I wont be so frustrated with NBA2k15 because I wont be playing it hardly,lol.

# 70 Coach2K @ 03/25/15 08:48 PM

So you can guys can have some USER vs USER stats for analysis, here are actual box scores from league play post patch. Hall of fame, sim sliders, 12 minutes quarters, all manual shot contest on defense.

I haven't compared them to anything but if someone wants to here's actual game data from good players. If you compare them to anything, it seems like it might make sense to compare them to the actual game that occurred real life.

Some of these guys are excellent offensive players and defensive ability between players ranges. Almost all have been using these teams all year.

Obviously if you play at lower difficulties, you are probably going to have higher shooting percentages, in MyTeam in particular which I believe is on pro.

# 71 JRxPHANTOM @ 03/25/15 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by www.Coach2K.com


	I'm not sure how I feel about the patch. On the one hand, I shouldn't play hof sim all year and get two green releases for over a 100, 12 minute quarter games and hardly hit anything even in practice mode with no defense. (I'm using the Pacers full time). On the other hand, guys that get good shots shouldn't be penalized "just because" shooting percentages need to be realistic. Maybe the real problem here is that we are expecting the CPU engine to keep percentages low when it should be defense that causes low field goal percentage instead. I think we are really focusing on the wrong problem. Shooting feels fine to me. Defense though, does not.

It's definitely both. However, the shooting is just awful and broken because of the green perfect releases. I can post fade with many big guys and get green releases almost every time. Take Al Jefferson for example. I can get his post fade green release 8/10 times. Defense or no defense.

# 72 CaseIH @ 03/26/15 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRxPHANTOM


	It's definitely both. However, the shooting is just awful and broken because of the green perfect releases. I can post fade with many big guys and get green releases almost every time. Take Al Jefferson for example. I can get his post fade green release 8/10 times. Defense or no defense.

You must be really good at your players shooting releases to get green almost every time. Even since this last patch I don't get very many green releases whether its a jumpshot or free throw, and all I play with is the Pacers. I do have games where I shoot a good %, but I don't get very many green releases. I know Im probably 1 of the worst players on here since I have been on all the pain meds Im on, but I must be even worse than I thought if people get green often,lol.

# 73 jrose57 @ 03/26/15 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaseIH


	You must be really good at your players shooting releases to get green almost every time. Even since this last patch I don't get very many green releases whether its a jumpshot or free throw, and all I play with is the Pacers. I do have games where I shoot a good %, but I don't get very many green releases. I know Im probably 1 of the worst players on here since I have been on all the pain meds Im on, but I must be even worse than I thought if people get green often,lol.

You really need to stop mentioning about your pain meds every thread, just focus on the topics man...

# 74 CaseIH @ 03/26/15 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrose57


	You really need to stop mentioning about your pain meds every thread, just focus on the topics man...

I post quite often around here, and the only time I post about anything to do with my health is when Im talking about sliders, or shot timing, since I know mine experience will be different than others here, and its only been a couple times, not that I care what you think anyway. Definitely not doing it for any other reason than that. Plus I know how some here will say dam you just suck man, well yeah, but there is a reason why I do. I actually use to be fairly descent at this game and sports game at 1 point in my life, now I just play them for fun and bordem.

# 75 CaseIH @ 03/26/15 01:51 AM

For those that play offline, do you feel you just shoot better from the perimeter or do you feel its both you and the AI ? I have been noticing that the AI don't seem to shoot all that great ever from 3pt range. I'd say from short range, and long 2pt shots they are pretty good, but from deep they seem to struggle. I was thinking about bumping up the AI's 3pt shooting, as wondered if anyone else has did this and what they have set there 3pt slider for the AI, right now I just have it at default sim which is 47.

# 76 Coach2K @ 03/26/15 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stillfeelme


	Coach I agree with some of that but not all of it. If you create a system where perfect release equals 100%, then stick skills play a more bigger role than actual real life %'s. Basically the original post demonstrated that the game becomes unrealistic because a skilled user is able to make a player shoot much better if they are able to time their shot. I already realized this means your whole defensive strategy changes because you now have to defend non-shooters much differently because their shot is not glitched. Take a look at these Pacers numbers. The Pacers as a team shoot 42% when wide open occording to SportsVU and 35% when contested tight. So as a team they only are better 6.7% when open. I think they did this kind of study last year and it showed that the NBA as a whole only shoots 5% better on average when open. The CPU engine should be about as close you can to what you have shown, which is why I think they need to seriously look at getting rid of perfect success equals 99% success. They need individual ratings for open and when contested. All of this was found on NBA.com. This is looking at jumpers 10 feet or greater.

A little bit back I posted some box scores from actual user vs user games. I sampled the first five I posted (I think I posted 15) and I then went in and checked the actual game played in the nba and made a chart of the real shot percentages vs 2k results.

These are all post patch, all user vs user, hof sim, 12 minute quarters and with defensive assist set to zero and shot contest set to manual.

There are some differences but I don't think they are too far from what the real games were that the changes they made really exposed flaws in the shooting system.

If you don't play users on hall of fame sim, and play on lower difficulties, I think I could see where the shooting percentages might be higher - especially in the my team arena where the difficulty is pro I think and the squads more superstar oriented.

I know DaCzar has said they tuned the game for superstar sim but hall of fame sim is where some of the best users play each other and so personally I think the game should be tuned to hall of fame sim user vs user myself.

My guess is that the they've tuned the game user vs CPU side to superstar sim and not to user v user superstar sim.

What I've noticed in league play is that if you put a strong offensive user versus a weaker defender or a guy off his defensively that day, then you'll see a higher percentage for that game.

But you can't base percentages on the strongest of the strongest users in league play vs guys not as strong. In order to have balance, you have to tune to the midpoint of those users instead of tuning to only the best players in the game.

If you make shooting harder for lower levels, you basically ruin the game for those of us playing up high end user v user.

This patch fixed that for us in my opinion.

Here's that chart I made so you can see the differences which are not that dramatic:

# 77 jrose57 @ 03/26/15 03:52 AM

Sorry, I am not understanding you completely but would love to do so, when you said DaCzar mentioned about how the game was tuned for superstar sim, do you mean the way Mike Wang posted patch four for us is to create a better experience for superstar sim or do you mean the way this game was built was meant to let users to feel the most realism while playing against the CPU? I have been playing the game before and after the patch and I feel like it is a little bit too easy for some reason, it is strange to me that the game is easy for superstar sim because for the past few years, the game is quite perfect vs CPU on this level but apparently is not for this year, anyways I don�t want to go too off topic but I just want to know exactly what you mean by �the game is tuned for superstar sim�� thanks bro!

Quote:

Originally Posted by www.Coach2K.com


	A little bit back I posted some box scores from actual user vs user games. I sampled the first five I posted (I think I posted 15) and I then went in and checked the actual game played in the nba and made a chart of the real shot percentages vs 2k results. These are all post patch, all user vs user, hof sim, 12 minute quarters and with defensive assist set to zero and shot contest set to manual. There are some differences but I don't think they are too far from what the real games were that the changes they made really exposed flaws in the shooting system. If you don't play users on hall of fame sim, and play on lower difficulties, I think I could see where the shooting percentages might be higher - especially in the my team arena where the difficulty is pro I think and the squads more superstar oriented. I know DaCzar has said they tuned the game for superstar sim but hall of fame sim is where some of the best users play each other and so personally I think the game should be tuned to hall of fame sim user vs user myself. My guess is that the they've tuned the game CPU side to superstar sim. What I've noticed in league play is that if you put a strong offensive user versus a weaker defender or a guy off his defensively that day, then you'll see a higher percentage for that game. Here's that chart I made so you can see the differences:

# 78 Coach2K @ 03/26/15 04:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jrose57


	Sorry, I am not understanding you completely but would love to do so, when you said DaCzar mentioned about how the game was tuned for superstar sim, do you mean the way Mike Wang posted patch four for us is to create a better experience for superstar sim or do you mean the way this game was built was meant to let users to feel the most realism while playing against the CPU? I have been playing the game before and after the patch and I feel like it is a little bit too easy for some reason, it is strange to me that the game is easy for superstar sim because for the past few years, the game is quite perfect vs CPU on this level but apparently is not for this year, anyways I don�t want to go too off topic but I just want to know exactly what you mean by �the game is tuned for superstar sim�� thanks bro!

Honestly, I don't know what DaCzar means by tuned to superstar sim but what I take it to mean is that the end results box score wise cpu to cpu are realistic.

But my guess is that even DaCzar will tell you that no matter how you tune the game that because user skill is so varied, it's not tuned to anyone. It could be that you could play the game and have a great experience on superstar sim and someone else may not.

Whatever level you play on, if you play it long enough and you work at it, you'll eventually improve your numbers over time. I remember starting the game on pro difficulty a few years back and it was hard to score. But put me on pro level now and I'll torch the CPU even with my current Pacers sqaud.

If I play the HOF CPU this year, I find I can't defend yet and am giving up sky high shooting percentages. Compared to previous years my experience so far stinks vs the HOF CPU.

But versus users, I find it's more inline on both side as you can see from the chart I posted.

Before they changed the fouls a few patches ago, I was lucky to score 70 versus users. Fouls helped. But even still I would go 1/13 from three. While the data shows the Pacers aren't very good shooting team, the problem with shooting for me was that no matter how much I practiced at the highest level, I couldn't improve.

I'd watch the real life Pacers have games where they would hit threes but never duplicate it.

Now at least I feel I can.

Anyway, I guess what I am saying is this.

Yes, there are more greens but it's laid out like everyone is hitting everything but no one is shooting 100 percent in my league on hof sim over the course of a 12 minute quarter game.

Yes it is true, they are shooting better and now defense has to get better. Before the patch, the game defended for us. We could let guys shoot knowing they wouldn't hit.

The data from good users at the highest level shows results not far off from the a real life game between the same teams.

# 79 ItsJustaGame @ 03/26/15 10:34 AM

Despite what some users have said, it's ridiculously easy to get green releases more than 75% of the time online. I've been saying this for a while now too.. You don't even have to be a great shooter or have your timing down-pat. All that matters is that you have a little space, and shoot the "right" way.

And also, this is stretching a little, but 3-pointers and mid-range are almost identical when it comes to timing and green releases, at least in the Rec center and especially in the corners.

I can't say that it isn't fun to go out and score a ton of points all the time, but when anyone can do it anytime--that's a big problem, and that's why I'm not down with the online shooting mechanics. Since the last 2 patches, every other game there will be at least one team scoring over 100 easy in the rec, unless the teams don't know how to shoot or move the ball around.

# 80 jeebs9 @ 03/26/15 12:41 PM

I know one thing... 2k regrets the day they put in the whole green visual system at the bottom of players. This thing has caused more problems and threads than I've ever seen.

I still use the visual of the wrist for timing all my shots. And I've been really happy with the results. I think the way it was before was better (before the post).

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