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Operation Sports - Press Row Podcast: Madden NFL 25 Next-Gen with Vic Lugo

10:47 AM - October 17, 2013 by Steve_OS

The 50th (!) Episode of the Press Row Podcast is a one-on-one interview by host Rich Grisham (@richgrisham) with Madden 25 NFL designer Vic Lugo, one of the core gameplay leaders as the Madden franchise moves into the PS4/Xbox One generation. The conversation hits a lot of the fundamental aspects of what happens on the field, including locomotion, physics, blocking, controls, and how players interact with each other. It�s the kind of conversation you�ll hear nowhere else but the Press Row Podcast on Operation Sports.

Send us your feedback! We love to hear from you and can�t wait to read your stuff on the air in a future episode. Do it one of these ways:

1) Follow the show on Twitter at @PressRowPodcast and send us some Tweets while you�re there
2) Email the show at [email protected]
3) Respond to this post

Also, the Press Row Podcast is now available on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...ow/id563624090) and Stitcher Radio (http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/oper...ss-row-podcast), so subscribe to it and rate it too!

Lastly, be sure to check out our friends at Weekend Confirmed right here: http://www.shacknews.com/tag/weekend-confirmed. If you�re not already a listener, give it a shot. We�re all big fans!

Enjoy the show!

Run Time: 49 Minutes

If you can't view or listen to the embedded player below, please click here.

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Member Comments

# 1 kongemeier @ 10/17/13 10:51 AM

Looking forward to listening when I drive home from work in a few hours.

Thanks!

# 2 adub88 @ 10/17/13 11:04 AM

Listening now. Rich asked some really tough questions. Vic sure makes this true step locomotion sound good. They captured over 1000 running animations, backpedaling, strafing etc. No more looping running animations with the Ignite engine. My biggest pet peeve with this game is the lack of fluidity and robotic movement. Still waiting on this true step reveal.Sounds like they're done with the game and it's ready to go out.

Vic also addressed replays for those who love to critique them, no more floaty feet. The most interesting part was Vic saying you're not going to see a big graphical jump. People have said this, but man I look at those 2k14 pics side by jump and that's a very bump leap in graphics. So i'm not a believer in that school of thought. I guess we may not be getting what we saw at E3, and that would be very disappointing. These consoles are more powerful.

# 3 jpdavis82 @ 10/17/13 11:12 AM

I'll be making cliff notes on this in the next hour. Anyone have anything in specific that they are wanting to know about in regards to gameplay? I asked Rich to ask Victor some questions so I'm curious to see what he had to say about them.

# 4 adub88 @ 10/17/13 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GiantBlue76


	I haven't listened yet, but it will be the same regurgitated thing as before. "450 new (insert animation of your choice here)". Yet we see the same ones over and over. Or how momentum is supposed to matter. It is? Like when I hit the running back in the backfield, he's flat footed, yet goes into that ridiculous looking spinning animation as he's falling FORWARD for 8 yards? Momentum? I'm fully expecting softballs from Rich. Rich is a great guy and I enjoy his game coverage, but he is really soft on the Madden guys because he's friends with them. I'm not counting on this being anything to get excited about.

have to say you're wrong buddy regarding Rich, he asked tough questions.

# 5 LBzrule @ 10/17/13 11:30 AM

Good show. Says the biggest thing is the game will feel different. OK, but I'm still wanting to know what happened between E3 visuals and MNF simulation visuals.

# 6 adub88 @ 10/17/13 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Good show. Says the biggest thing is the game will feel different. OK, but I'm still wanting to know what happened between E3 visuals and MNF simulation visuals.

Vic pretty much made it sound like we're not getting those E3 visuals.

# 7 dghustla @ 10/17/13 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adub88


	Vic pretty much made it sound like we're not getting those E3 visuals.

Even if that is the case. what about the visuals in the presentation trailer? Those look vastly different from the MNF videos.

# 8 adub88 @ 10/17/13 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dghustla


	Even if that is the case. what about the visuals in the presentation trailer? Those look vastly different from the MNF videos.

I can't speak for everybody, but personally, I know I'm tired of talking about what if's, what could be's. Just ready to see actual gameplay video at this point lol.

# 9 dghustla @ 10/17/13 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adub88


	I can't speak for everybody, but personally, I know I'm tired of talking about what if's, what could be's. Just ready to see actual gameplay video at this point lol.

Look I'm with you. It's just confusing as all hell. Because what ESPN is calling Next Gen Gameplay, and whats in the True Step teaser and presentation trailer look much different. I'm not expecting a huge graphical leap this year and maybe not even that much overall in this general. I think the leaps will be made in Human Intelligence, depths and details on this next gen.

I listened to the first 10 minutes of the interview so far. And I like what Vic is saying about true step. The only thing is, I wish Rich would have asked him to clarify how is true step different from what just added to NCAA and madden this year. (he could have asked after i stopped listening but it seemed where i stopped that the convo was transiting.)

# 10 Gosens6 @ 10/17/13 11:48 AM

Graphics won't take a big leap? Yeah, maybe not for the madden team! Has he even seen some of these other games?

We were clearly lied to with that E3 footage. I don't trust anything anyone from this team tries to sell us. They've lied to us so much, I have to take everything else as a lie at this point.

We saw the MNF videos, where was this true step, 1000+ animations in those videos? Give me a break .

Sent from the Dungeon Of Doom using Tapatalk

# 11 rudyjuly2 @ 10/17/13 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	I'll be making cliff notes on this in the next hour.

Definitely looking forward to this. Thanks jp.

# 12 PAPERNUT @ 10/17/13 11:57 AM

Rich did a fine job and asked good questions. Just not much we can get from it till we see the actual game in motion at this point.

# 13 csamuelsvt @ 10/17/13 11:58 AM

Sounds like a more "polished" Madden 25 that has to be experienced in order to see the details...just my 2 cents. Curious what others think after listening.

# 14 Dogslax41 @ 10/17/13 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gosens6


	Graphics won't take a big leap? Yeah, maybe not for the madden team! Has he even seen some of these other games? We were clearly lied to with that E3 footage. I don't trust anything anyone from this team tries to sell us. They've lied to us so much, I have to take everything else as a lie at this point. We saw the MNF videos, where was this true step, 1000+ animations in those videos? Give me a break . Sent from the Dungeon Of Doom using Tapatalk

Agreed. While they don't have to fall on their sword, a mea culpa would be nice since its pretty clear that they used the bait and switch marketing again. EA really is working hard to erode any semblance of trust the market has in them. I understand inflating your marketing strategy by over stating the impact certain improvements make on the game, but they really need to be taken to task for what boils down to essentially lying about their product. Because releasing a video like E3 that says actual gameplay and then releasing a game that looks nothing like it and not saying a word is BS.

At least come out, own it and say, "we really tried to hit the E3 gameplay target but we didn’t feel we could get there in time and still have a complete full featured game at launch." People may not all understand but at least they won't feel like they were intentionally deceived.

# 15 splff3000 @ 10/17/13 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adub88


	Vic also addressed replays for those who love to critique them, no more floaty feet. The most interesting part was Vic saying you're not going to see a big graphical jump. People have said this, but man I look at those 2k14 pics side by jump and that's a very bump leap in graphics. So i'm not a believer in that school of thought. I guess we may not be getting what we saw at E3, and that would be very disappointing. These consoles are more powerful.

IMO, this is good news. That means they're not trying to use most( or all) of their resources on graphics and stadium design like it seems they did with Madden 06 on the 360. Hopefully, this means that most of the resources were put to gameplay and things like that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpdavis82


	I'll be making cliff notes on this in the next hour. Anyone have anything in specific that they are wanting to know about in regards to gameplay? I asked Rich to ask Victor some questions so I'm curious to see what he had to say about them.

I can't wait to see them. Yeah, I'm interested in pretty much anything gameplay related. I'm tired of hearing about art and graphics. I want to hear about the gameplay.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	Good show. Says the biggest thing is the game will feel different.* OK, but I'm still wanting to know what happened between E3 visuals and MNF simulation visuals.*

As much as the statement about "visuals not changing much" makes me feel good, this one does nothing for me. In fact, it kinda worries me a little. It means EA is still using the same tag lines of previous years. How many times over the years have we been told pre-release, that you have to "feel" the game to see the difference then we get it and it "feels" the same as previous maddens. The "you have to feel it" line from EA has gotten pretty old.

Hopefully, the reason for the change in the visuals is due to processing power ie they are using more power for gameplay so they had to reduce the visuals some from their initial projections. Personally, the game can look exactly like this gen, with dramatically upgraded gameplay and I'd be a very happy camper. I will admit, I am very curious to see what this game actually looks like graphically and gameplay wise. EA needs to stop with all the trailers and give us some raw gameplay footage.

# 16 dghustla @ 10/17/13 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogslax41


	Agreed. While they don't have to fall on their sword, a mea culpa would be nice since its pretty clear that they used the bait and switch marketing again. EA really is working hard to erode any semblance of trust the market has in them. I understand inflating your marketing strategy by over stating the impact certain improvements make on the game, but they really need to be taken to task for what boils down to essentially lying about their product. Because releasing a video like E3 that says actual gameplay and then releasing a game that looks nothing like it and not saying a word is BS. At least come out, own it and say, "we really tried to hit the E3 gameplay target but we didn�t feel we could get there in time and still have a complete full featured game at launch." People may not all understand but at least they won't feel like they were intentionally deceived.

I completely agree with you. The Coachglass video looks better than the MNF video but no where near the trailer and no where near E3. I think EA needs to just stop with the pre-rendered trailers. If they want to highlight graphics and true step, just use gameplay to show how it looks and happens in the actual game. it doesn't need to be 10 minutes of gameplay. just replace the canned screens and use the game.

# 17 Dogslax41 @ 10/17/13 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dghustla


	I completely agree with you. The Coachglass video looks better than the MNF video but no where near the trailer and no where near E3. I think EA needs to just stop with the pre-rendered trailers. If they want to highlight graphics and true step, just use gameplay to show how it looks and happens in the actual game. it doesn't need to be 10 minutes of gameplay. just replace the canned screens and use the game.

You really would have thought they had learned that after the Vick/Strahan video from E3 2005. What part of releasing a pre-rendered video worked out for them back then and why in the world would they just do it all over again?

# 18 jpdavis82 @ 10/17/13 12:19 PM

Interview recorded October 16th 2013

First thing Victor says that he wants people to know, is that they have taken advantage of the power and resources this console offers to give people the most realistic simulation to date.

The majority of what Victor worked on, is based around the ball carrier and locomotion, he's the product lead for True Step and precision modifier on next gen.

Rich: What is True Step and how will I notice it and how will it impact the game vs what I see on the 360/PS3?

Victor: True Step is our new step based locomotion system. Any kind of old school game you played on gen 3 and since the days of Mario 64, didn't take into account speed and momentum as it should and mimic the steps that a human would take.

Rather than using a traditional run system, collaborated with FIFA to motion capture 1000 new run animations, calculating speed and momentum per step. The idea of a turn on a dime goes away, gives a more realistic slow down and cut. This affects both sides of the ball.

With new proprietary tools inside of Ignite, that are shared with FIFA, have the ability to create realistic run curves and acceleration curves and test them before they are implemented into the game. Had an adjustment phase where it looked perfect at one point but responsiveness didn't match what you are capable of as a player, so went back and modeled stutter steps and slow downs to be responsive, wasn't easy, but feels good at this point and once people get their hands on it, they won't want to go back.

Started talking about this idea before Madden 13 shipped, captured some steps for testing early in the cycle. Captured some more in Fall 2012 and really started working on it shortly after that.

Took into consideration early how ratings would matter and work with backs who are more skilled in agility vs power. Were able to get a lot more steps from different kinds of people due to Ignite's technology.

These results were only capable with the new tech, would have slowed the game down and turned it into a "turn based RPG" with old technology.

The game is already finished and being sent out.

Rich: Is this True Step something that people will only notice in replays or slow motion or how will it jump out at people?

Victor: I believe you will notice in both cases. Replays will look great, guys feel weightier and have a better sense of momentum even in slow motion. Suggests people do a side by side comparison when they get the game, huge difference. Outside of replays, the game will have a completely different feel, guys will seem smarter when running, feel of the running is even greater and more realistic than the look of it IMO, art team would probably say just the opposite, but that's how I feel about it.

Game is more of a slow burn, not a massive jump initially, graphically, upon first glance, but there's much more happening at the AI and locomotion level.

I feel like people are in need of better more realistic gameplay as a whole with gen 4 and not as much of the graphical leap as you saw from PS1 to PS2, there will still be some impressive things you see, but where we are in the gaming world, is focusing on the increased power to do things with gameplay that were never possible before, I.E. more stuff being blown up in Battlefield 4.

Player Sense

Rich: If I'm on the near sideline and I throw a pass and my guy is on the near sideline and he's open and steps out of bounds, is this something that the new player sense AI is going to address?

Victor: Yes your example is a good example of what you will see and we want guys to do more intelligent things on the field, and you saw some of it on gen 3, ball carriers putting hands on lineman, but with the additional memory we were able to do more of it, you'll see guys hurdle over players that fall in front of them, guys will straddle the sideline, point for blocks in front of them, on blitzes you'll see guys put their hands on lineman to step around them. It's all over the place now and to me it enhances the production value and overall experience. Want to see more and more of it in the future.

You'll see it in replays a lot, should allow you to seamlessly enjoy gameplay without some of the issues with physics we saw in Madden 13 and 25 on gen 3 especially.

Rich: Is blocking going to be better and can it be better without breaking the game due to overpowering the defense?

Victor: First of all yes, it is significantly better, Clint's goal is not to create blocking schemes that will work for the game, it's to make realistic blocking work in the game. Been working hand in hand with Clint to create realistic running and run blocking that opens up holes for the runner to run through.

Rich: On gen 3, with D-lineman, feels like I'm getting sucked into animations with offensive lineman, is this no longer the case on gen 4?

Victor: Based on what I've seen yes, I would talk to Clint more about it, but now you see more realistic things on both sides of the ball and have more control.

Rich: What from a physics perspective are we going to see on Gen 4 with 4x the power with Ignite?

Victor: We are collaborating a lot more with other teams and you'll get a much more polished experience with physics on gen 4. We spent time getting rid of as many bugs as we could and you'll see better looking characters as they fall and run and make contact with other players, reduce silliness on the field. Force impact was retuned to create a better looking truck and stiff arm, a lot of nice looking hit sticks as well.

In gen 4, the LT slows you down a lot more realistically with the precision modifier, very realistic, feels great. With True Step, we've added more steps for the precision modifier. Skills trainer will have some new drills that are specific to gen 4, but all drills will feel differently than they did on gen 3 due to True Step and the gen 4 technology. Precision cuts, side and running back locomotion, turns will be different.

When you're playing defense make sure you learn to slow down and strafe and adjust to the movements of the ball carrier and the differences on gen 4 on both sides of the ball not just on offense.

# 19 dghustla @ 10/17/13 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adub88


	This after Mr. Lugo states don't expect to see a big graphical change. 2K obviously wants to be great. Madden team, not at all.

Video looks amazing no doubt. But please don't it man lol. Lets try to keep this one about the podcast and interview.

# 20 howboutdat @ 10/17/13 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adub88


	This after Mr. Lugo states don't expect to see a big graphical change. 2K obviously wants to be great. Madden team, not at all.

welcome to the EA spin machine...... dont expect much different in graphics ( but yet notice every detailed blade of grass) ... sounds like to me they spent too much time on grass graphics... and if the graphics arent any better what about gameplay , glitches fixed? anything good? im not feeling to hopeful at this point. man why couldnt that lawsuit have included madden ,so they couldnt make it for 5 years also.....

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