Madden NFL 25 News Post

OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

12:00 PM - September 6, 2013 by Steve_OS

It’s another special episode of the Press Row Podcast, as we talk about Madden NFL 25 – and, by extension, life as a gaming father and working professional - with two of our favorite people. First up is ESPN’s Gus Ramsey, best known for his appearances on Bill Simmons’ BS Report to talk about his experiences with the game so far and how video games play a part in his family life as the Dad of three sons. Next up is Zynga’s Ian Cummings, a longtime designer of Madden who’s been away from the franchise for a few years. In a wide-ranging discussion, he reveals some fascinating insights into Madden 25 specifically and the franchise as a whole in the past, today, and moving into the next generation. It’s a must-listen for everyone that has ever loved Madden.

Joining us this week:

Gus Ramsey, ESPN (@gusramsey)
Ian Cummings, Zynga(@iantcummings)
And your host, Richard Grisham, GamesRadar (@richgrisham)

Send us your feedback! We love to hear from you and can’t wait to read your stuff on the air in a future episode. Do it one of these ways:

1) Follow the show on Twitter at @PressRowPodcast and send us some Tweets while you’re there
2) Email the show at [email protected]
3) Respond to this post

Also, the Press Row Podcast is now available on iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/...ow/id563624090) and Stitcher Radio (http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/oper...ss-row-podcast), so subscribe to it and rate it too!

Lastly, be sure to check out our friends at Weekend Confirmed right here: http://www.shacknews.com/tag/weekend-confirmed. If you’re not already a listener, give it a shot. We’re all big fans!

Enjoy the show!

Run Time: 1 Hour, 45 Minutes

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Game: Madden NFL 25Reader Score: 5/10 - Vote Now
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Madden NFL 25 Videos

Member Comments

# 21 BrianU @ 09/07/13 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	Oh how I wanted to like your post because the vast majority of it I agree with but then you threw in the bold. I won't rehash that topic but according to certain reports, the bold is inaccurate. Overall though I think you make good points, even though admittedly by Ian Madden under his tenure could have been much better, even without competition, had they not "caved" to external pressure. I haven't gotten into that statement much because all it would do is frustrate me to think about but that seems clear to me that even with the external pressures Ian and the team were given some form of choice. I picture Tiburon as this echo chamber or "bubble" where somehow bad or at least unconventional design ideas become accepted over essentially common sense, in the guise of innovation. Many people over the years in the software field have posted on various boards that yes there are external pressures that give their two cents but that usually the final decision is up to those that are directly in charge of the product. A take that to mean it's rare that a "suit" or marketing is directly dictating to someone how to do things that individual has to sign their name to and be directly accountable for. That's what I was getting at about it would have been nice if during his tenure when he was making those decisions Ian had taken time to try to see Madden in a different perspective. I mean think about it, Ian admittedly caved to the external pressure and chose to take Madden in a different direction for M11 than M10, maybe from self doubt due to external influences focus on sales that he mentioned were down or not great for M10, only to quit Tiburon sometime the next year anyway. I think the lesson from this is to have the courage of your conventions and don't worry about the things that are out of your control because.....they're out of your control. That's where that "bubble" comes into play again, imo because most anyone outside looking in would have deduced that of course M10 sells would be down because so much was left unfinished, namely Online Franchise Mode and Franchise mode as a whole still missing features from last gen Madden, along with being nowhere near as deep as HC09. Yet Tiburon had the audacity to claim that most gamers don't even play career/franchise modes and some posters picked up that talking point claiming that OS Franchise players were a minority. (check out Spliff3000's sig). Yet M13 added CCM that was a buggy mess but the fact that it was fundamentally the same career mode offline or online gave it crazy metrics for Looman to tout that as a success. Some people seem to be lauding Ian for this interview and I don't begrudge them that but looking back at the past, I have a different opinion on his revelations.

I don't think it takes audacity to state that most people do not play franchise mode online or offline. It is a pretty damn niche mode. Most people do not download custom rosters or use sliders. The entire point of CCM is to stop neglecting those modes and I think it is a revolutionary and exciting concept not because of the current state of it, but for laying a solid foundation. Like was mentioned FIFA 10 to FIFA 13 was a huge improvement that was planned and executed upon. You surely remember the years where they literally added NOTHING to online franchise. Not even different menu graphics. By integrating online and offline franchise as well as superstar mode, they can update one game mode instead of 3 separate ones which means they don't have to divide development time between the 3 or repeat their efforts to add features to each mode. I personally would like to see Play Now and CCM be more integrated and allow us to do things like pick uniforms and custom playbooks for the CPU team that you can't do in CCM but can in Play Now. There is a divide there that should not exist but it is not as huge as the previous 3 I mentioned were.

It is a bold vision and one they are sticking with by the looks of it, that is only a good thing. I felt Ian's interview was optimistic and my own view of Madden is optimistic. I am not a die hard who has played that long but I do love the game of football and I do want a solid football sim which we do not have yet. I just don't understand the negativity towards Ian nor towards Josh. EA Sports is heading in the right direction implementing online career modes attached to offline career modes as well as real time physics and player traits to all their sports franchises. That seems to me to be their unified vision that they are going for. The progress is not as quick as we would like but progress is and has been made.

My only complaint is I wish sports game were more like a sandbox that we had more control over to tune to the gameplay experience towards what we want which could be more arcade or more simulation. I do not like having to rely on the development team to get things right such as CPU playbooks or game speed. I want more ratings, more sliders, more customization. The Show is such a force because they give you 5 ways to hit and 5 ways to pitch and let you tune them how you wish. Every sports game should follow that lead.

# 22 RGiles36 @ 09/07/13 04:49 PM

I haven't listened to the interview, but I am glad to see that people are acknowledging that Ian Cummings was not the definitive problem. It seems there are some that shift blame to Cummings & co. in an effort to praise the work of the current regime.

I recently had a healthy debate with Smitty of TSS, and while I won't put words in his mouth, his position was that the new dev team has the game in the right direction whereas Cummings did not. And that's something I disagree with.

While I absolutely understand the key role of leadership on any project (in this case a videogame), the notion that Cummings had the wrong vision is incorrect IMO. In my limited interaction, Ian and that staff talked about taking the game in the exact same direction that the current dev team does. And for my money, the Ian-led M10 & M12 editions are still the best Maddens this generation has had to offer. This game hasn't gotten better since Cummings has been gone -- again my opinion.

Essentially, my point is that if this game is poised to get better, tell me it's b/c of improved technology, more resources, and tangible stuff like that. If the only argument is that the current leadership is SO much better than the previous leadership, then that doesn't get me very excited. The only thing that reasoning provides is a precursor to the infamous "this new dev team needs more time," line. I've heard that message since '09

# 23 TeeDogg @ 09/07/13 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RGiles36


	I haven't listened to the interview, but I am glad to see that people are acknowledging that Ian Cummings was not the definitive problem. It seems there are some that shift blame to Cummings & co. in an effort to praise the work of the current regime. I recently had a healthy debate with Smitty of TSS, and while I won't put words in his mouth, his position was that the new dev team has the game in the right direction whereas Cummings did not. And that's something I disagree with. While I absolutely understand the key role of leadership on any project (in this case a videogame), the notion that Cummings had the wrong vision is incorrect IMO. In my limited interaction, Ian and that staff talked about taking the game in the exact same direction that the current dev team does. And for my money, the Ian-led M10 & M12 editions are still the best Maddens this generation has had to offer. This game hasn't gotten better since Cummings has been gone -- again my opinion. Essentially, my point is that if this game is poised to get better, tell me it's b/c of improved technology, more resources, and tangible stuff like that. If the only argument is that the current leadership is SO much better than the previous leadership, then that doesn't get me very excited. The only thing that reasoning provides is a precursor to the infamous "this new dev team needs more time," line. I've heard that message since '09 .

I agree, I had a lot of respect for Ian and what he tried to do under the circumstances. Maddens short comings were bigger than any one or two people or programers. imo

I like the direction madden is heading, but they also have invested in the tools get there now.

# 24 infemous @ 09/07/13 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	I think it is audacious to make such a statement, especially when Tiburon comes back a few years later for M13 touting how many online CCMs were started. If anything a minority of gamers played Franchise in next-gen Madden until M13 because it was so bare bones without a true online compliment, not that gamers didn't play career modes in general. While CCM and CFM are good premises, there is nothing innovative or ground breaking about them, other games like FIFA, NBA2k, NCAA Football and even Madden on PC have already shown that "if you build it they will come". The only different aspect about CCM/CFM would be the inclusion of be a player/superstar in the same mode, which I would argue, did more harm than good to the mode as a whole. So while I can agree CCM and CFM have a solid premise of linking modes together so a raising tide lifts all boats, that idea is not something new nor is it executed particularly well in CCM or CFM. I don't see it as negativity so much as warranted criticism, not towards the ideas or the people themselves but their execution. Tiburon this gen has a history of trying to do something better before ever doing it right. A prime example is the Franchise mode in Madden in comparison to the Dynasty Mode in NCAA Football. It defies common sense that Tiburon, which makes both games literally right next to each other, would have Online Dynasty in NCAA Football but fail to ever put a comparable online mode in Madden, before undertaking something like CCM and CFM. We can agree to disagree, I just don't understand how some people seem to judge next-gen Madden in a vacuum just because Tiburon's unconventional and seemingly unnecessary design decisions on things standard in other sports games, make that game progressively more difficult to develop than others.

This here is the stinger, and I think we are all guilty of this at times.

It seems the transition from PS2 to current gen really ruined or scuppered our chances of seeing a good Madden this gen, and possibly next gen too.

There seems to be so much bad code (proven through the continued presence of legacy issues and constant potential gamebreaking bugs) that they cannot truly progress the game for fear of breaking some small but unrelated aspect of it.

An example was when I edited a roster file on M13 to lower OVRs of FAs and change positions of some players, such as Huff from CB back to FS aswell as some ratings adjustments to fix continued issues such as Tebow always ending up as a starting QB somewhere. I'd finally thought I'd found a way to vary my CCM experience and it took me a long time to sift through every team to remedy issues I'd seen cropping up. I booted up an Offline CCM with that roster file, only to find out that equipment was messed up, such as every flak jacket being swapped with a back plate and every back plate being swapped with a flak jacket, and for all player traits to be reversed (all non-clutch players became clutch and all clutch players became not clutch, Rivers threw perfect spirals while Rodgers didn't etc.)

What sort of deep coded issue or bug must have been prevalent for some rating and position changes to effect player traits and equipment for EVERY player???

I'd be hard pressed to find that in my PES of old (which I edited extensively updating kits, equipment, ratings and transfers due to the absence of online updates) back on the PS2. In fact, I didn't. Ever.

These sorts of mistakes are kind of accepted by Madden players, or excused more so, due to time constraints, budget restraints or suit interventions continually because we have become so used to seeing bugs in the game and relying on patches to fix them.

How is it on PS2 games, before the presence of patches, did we seldom see bugs as gamebreaking as this in Madden or any other sports game?

It seems a Tuck Fonne of terribly applied code can be to blame, and EA's continued refusal to scrap it entirely has held many Madden players back from truly enjoying an NFL game.

The issue going forward seems to be that EA Tiburon will still be depending on this innately flawed and inefficient code to launch next gen 'seamlessly'.

We have a 'new' engine, except it runs off of the same principles as current gen, with more stuff added in... Doesn't sound particularly new to me.

We will accept that next gen Madden will be bug ridden, or will see the perpetuation of legacy issues because 'making a game is hard, they don't have long to do it, suits interfere, insufficient budget, laboured with bad code from last gen' etc. etc.

We as Madden gamers, desperate for a good football game will willingly enter the same vacuum and help perpetuate the issue.

Whats most shocking is that within EA Sports, they have learnt from these issues, yet EA Tiburon hasn't.. WHY??

FIFA was riddled with the same issues as Madden is now, except they ACTUALLY blew the game up, completely re-did it, and subsequently are enjoying a huge amount of success. Why can't we see this with Madden?

Even PES are abstaining from transitioning to next gen immediately because they just blew up their entire physics engine for current gen and will likely develop on this new physics engine to suit the next gen machines to avoid the very mistake EA made with Madden from PS2 to current gen.

I'd love to believe EA Tiburon when they say that they learnt from the previous transition, because essentially, they haven't.
Sure, the game will not be the shell or entirely different experience Madden was when it first came onto this gen, but it will still be a very poor representation of football and will still carry the same basic DNA as that very same disappointing and muddied game did all those years ago.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissionMaximus


	Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic with the bold comment (in regards to EA apologist if you will). I understand the business aspect of it but I don't agree with it. I was referencing the fact that people always point to the NFL approached EA but then after that EA goes and locks up other exclusives (as mentioned above) to shut out any chance of competition. Look at how things are unfolding with their competition in soccer in regards to PES and other soccer games. "EA Voted Worst Company in America, Again" http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertco...america-again/

Could you elaborate on the bold please?

Are you simply mentioning how EA's competition with PES has meant that the game has had to improve drastically and how both games are responding to each others' developments to bite into each others' market share? Or is there more with regards to this competition?

What I am seeing in this competition is EA falling into old habits and not progressing at the same rate as it initially did, for fear of alienating a casual market they are exploiting, and allowing PES a window to come back and become the premier football game.

It'll be interesting to see how that battle goes. I've avoided FIFA the last 3 years because it has poor AI, no individuality and a staleness I do not accept with football games (having been a dedicated PES player on PS2) especially in its career mode. PES was not an option because of its own unacceptable issues, but that seems to be changing.

EA get a lot of criticism on things such as Facebook posts with regards to FIFA for the lack of marked improvement each year, which is a telling sign, and is something noticeable (but surprisingly less so) on Madden's Facebook posts too.

I look forward to playing both demos and being able to decide which game is worth my money, as opposed to being in the situation I am in with Madden.

# 25 infemous @ 09/08/13 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissionMaximus


	Well I'm not a big Soccer fan but some of the games look pretty cool. Especially the Fan video of the new PES, looked really good. Then I saw this http://www.operationsports.com/forum...itor-rain.html It's only a matter of time before they lock up Soccer. EA doesn't like competition. Especially when FIFA has become their money maker worldwide. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of EA games, way too much really. I like BF on PC plus a few others but when you kill off one of my Favorite games of all time not because you beat them on the virual grid-iron but through a exclusive contract that just pi$$es me off. Do I want EA to make a NFL Football game to make me finally forget NFL2k5 absolutely, do I think their capable of doing just that one word... NO. NFL2k5 was not perfect but wow was it ahead of it's time and when I wasn't playing it or watching it, I was thinking of it. Madden just doesn't do that for me but I truly wish it did.

Wow. That really is surprising and a horrible course of events.

I am the same with regards, I am most looking forward to BF on next gen and have given them too much money from Madden (bought every Madden since 10 on pre order, except 25, which I will probably buy on next gen) and loved Skate 2 and sometimes still play that.

I have felt the issue with EA Sports game, which is lost in the search for licenses, is individuality. I remember on PES back on PS2 certain players just FELT different and this is my biggest gripe with FIFA. I can't really enjoy FIFA when every player is ambidextrous and defensive AI is so bad. Additionally, I am astounded at the complete dearth of tactical options, which makes remedying issues of bad AI almost impossible.

With Madden, there is no alternative and my need for a fix as NFL football became my number 1 sport about 5/6 years ago is tough to deny, while with football/soccer, my disillusionment with the overall sport has helped wean me off of the accompanying games as the games' qualities have lowered/plateaued.
I'm conciously trying to get back into the sport but its hard when you see the sorts of money being recklessly thrown around and little concern for parity. Its a very alienating sport now, which it wasn't just 10 years ago...
Money has ruined it for me in a way, but it is still such a beautiful sport.

What seems to be the case in real life football seems to be directly affecting the games that recreate it, and thats very sad.

EA buying up licenses is a really shady move that I think should be discouraged by governing bodies, as it should be by law. It also seems to show that EA are plateauing with FIFA, too scared to make the changes that will revolutionise or continue to really progress the game for fear of alienating the MUT markets, so they flex financial muscle to kill competition instead of rising to it.

I can't say it enough, but all that is needed to be a popular, mass selling sports game, is to do your darndest every year to recreate everything that happens on and off the field and put it into your game.

PS. FIFA's career mode is such a joke that I can't believe people genuinely try to play it. It makes Madden's CCM, with bugs and everything, look like Football Manager.

# 26 carnalnirvana @ 09/08/13 09:37 AM

i really dont believe the suits are the big problem with madden....the suits may be the problem with the game not taking bigger strides but what is on the disc isn't done right and done with little attention to detail.

the external forces argument is a scapegoat argument imo.

Ex. we have the ability to download custom gameplans this year, why is it we cannot assign it to a cpu coach/team. THAT IS A LACK OF VISION(not seeing that both online and offline players would like to play against custom gameplans), attention to detail

the playcalling can be fixed in 1 hour Ex.. just go in and change the frequency of plays with 2 TE for the pats SO THEY PLAY LIKE THE PATS... yet it is still the same for 3 years....THAT IS A LACK OF ATTENTION TO DETAIL/ NOT ACTUALLY KNOWING HOW THE PATS PLAY....

again why not make it " editable" so we can do it.....

this is not the suits fault.....this does not require any further budgeting/ hiring of staff

the guys making this game have no clue about football, they are tech guys who are very very good at being tech guys, this interview imo proves that , because years after leaving madden ian still does not get why madden fails

# 27 infemous @ 09/08/13 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnalnirvana


	i really dont believe the suits are the big problem with madden....the suits may be the problem with the game not taking bigger strides but what is on the disc isn't done right and done with little attention to detail. the external forces argument is a scapegoat argument imo. Ex. we have the ability to download custom gameplans this year, why is it we cannot assign it to a cpu coach/team. THAT IS A LACK OF VISION(not seeing that both online and offline players would like to play against custom gameplans), attention to detail the playcalling can be fixed in 1 hour Ex.. just go in and change the frequency of plays with 2 TE for the pats SO THEY PLAY LIKE THE PATS... yet it is still the same for 3 years....THAT IS A LACK OF ATTENTION TO DETAIL/ NOT ACTUALLY KNOWING HOW THE PATS PLAY.... again why not make it " editable" so we can do it..... this is not the suits fault.....this does not require any further budgeting/ hiring of staff the guys making this game have no clue about football, they are tech guys who are very very good at being tech guys, this interview imo proves that , because years after leaving madden ian still does not get why madden fails

At risk of sounding like a 'basher' but I don't think they are even very good as just 'tech guys' because physics still don't exist and once they introduced their take on RTP it led to some sloppy interactions (which I didn't mind, but whatever). Also, if you just take a look at the bugs/glitches thread, you will be absolutely amazed at what happens. If that is unappealing (I try and avoid it) just look at my previous post with regards to how messy the code is.

I just don't think that this team can get it done if they're building on the same code. Why or how they are doing is beyond me, but whoever input the code initially did a terrible job, and the current guys are doing a terrible job of testing to see what the effects of their changes are.

Anyone with a brain would identify where the mess stems from (the bad original code) and push to scrap it. If the suits don't allow you, be vocal, force pressure, make it obvious what the root of the issue is and do what you can to change it. I have a hard time believing the 'suits' are saying there is no way we will ever allow you to fix what is holding this game back from being good and maximising profits and improving customer/company relations...

I agree with what you said above with regards to 'lack of vision'. It trickles from standard design decisions to overarching development efficiency and even to marketing. I don't know who thinks that 'Owner Mode is BACK' is better for marketing a game than 'Owner Mode is MUCH IMPROVED WITH: bla bla bla'

It's common sense that seems to be completely missing at EA Tiburon, everywhere.

# 28 roadman @ 09/08/13 12:45 PM

So, AJ goes off on a rant in recent past and it's ok, what he said was what we all thought all along.

Ian says things of a similar nature and he doesn't know football?

To me, not much difference between what AJ stated and the Ian interview, one was stated more loudly than the other.

I do agree with Carnival when he said, what's on the disk is on the disk, and that goes back to GiantBlue's statement about the programming talent.

# 29 roadman @ 09/08/13 04:06 PM

Big, I know you are not riffing on me, just I don't see it that way.

I'm in the employment field and you don't bad mouth your present employer to co-workers, much less the media. Also, you defend your current employer in the media as well. ALso, you mention some of his anti-sim post, but he also had some sim posts here as well. Historically, I used to bring this up, but after Madden 10 came out, he posted a list of 25 things that OS posters wanted in the game and he stated that 90% of our suggestions were in the game. I do give him some credit from turning 10 into a more sim than the past, but then, 11 was not a good game and he explains why.

Once you are no longer a employee, and you are clear of any legal ramifications, the gloves can come off at your discreation and you feel more able to voice your opinion.

I expect there to be a difference of Ian the employee vs Ian the consumer.

Not trying to change your opinion on the matter.

Just stating there wasn't much different between the statements of AJ and Ian, when it all boils down to it.

Also, to note, Ian was the one that hired AJ.

# 30 BrianU @ 09/08/13 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MissionMaximus


	That's Madden to a tee. It's all about Head to Head and stick skills. Madden Nation doesn't want control taking away from their stick skills. Meaning nano blitzes, money plays, 5 minute quarters and no penalties. They don't want better animations dictating play they want stick skills with super-duper combos where you can break out of 5 men gang tackles with stick skills. The AI should be dumb as hell so that stick skills are all that matter. Hell with strategy it's about stick skills son. Let's make all players play the same regardless who it is or what their ratings are it's about...stick skills. NBA2K and the Show.....NAWWW that's too realistic

See I believe you are correct. The game is designed from the ground up to cater to that play style of online quick ranked games. The thing is don't understand why they can't create a separate mode called Simulation for our crowd with working penalties, better blocking, etc.. It would only create more profit for them.. I would invest a **** ton of money in MUT if I could play in 'simulation' mode. Same with ranked games. I don't go near either modes because the gameplay is so arcadey. It's pretty obvious that compromising and trying to mix sim and arcade is not ideal, let the arcade guys play that style and let us play our style keep the rankings and only modes independent we have the technology to build it!

# 31 roadman @ 09/08/13 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	But Road in much of that interview the things Ian is being critical of now, he was responsible for and in control of then. That's like me house sitting for a friend on vacation, doing a poor job of watering the plants, caring for their pets, lawn and keeping the house clean, then being critical of their housekeeping of the same home years later.

So, I take it that you view his interview with a grain of salt?

He mentioned external factors three or four times during that interview, even though I know you don't like to hear "marketing and suits", but it might be more reality, especially conferring what AJ said.

The point I'm getting at, is if you say he was in control, and he mentions external factors more than a few times, how is that being in control?

Have you ever been in a situation where you took your ideas up the ladder in your place of employemt and have them shot down by higher ups and or other departments?

Happens all the time in business.

Yes, Ian was in charge back then, and it appears others had more say than Ian at times.

IE- Peter Moore

# 32 SageInfinite @ 09/08/13 08:31 PM

They just need to build a game totally built upon realism and authenticity of the sport. Then have slider sets in place for different play styles. They always take the shortest easiest route to their goal tho so, that'll never happen. These dudes just don't have the talent or the know how to make it happen. I blame the suits for features, but not how things function and are implemented. You can blame time constraints, but this game didn't just start coming out every year, it's always been that way. These dudes should have it under control by their 25th edition, lol.

# 33 roadman @ 09/08/13 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SageInfinite


	They just need to build a game totally built upon realism and authenticity of the sport. Then have slider sets in place for different play styles. They always take the shortest easiest route to their goal tho so, that'll never happen. These dudes just don't have the talent or the know how to make it happen. I blame the suits for features, but not how things function and are implemented. You can blame time constraints, but this game didn't just start coming out every year, it's always been that way. These dudes should have it under control by their 25th edition, lol.

The game coming out every year doesn't cut it for me. So, does FIFA, NBA2k and The Show. Agree with the implentation and functioning of the game, too.

# 34 rootofalleli @ 09/08/13 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by carnalnirvana


	i really dont believe the suits are the big problem with madden....the suits may be the problem with the game not taking bigger strides but what is on the disc isn't done right and done with little attention to detail... this is not the suits fault.....this does not require any further budgeting/ hiring of staff

I agree with some points but upper management can create more problems than you give them credit for. If the budget is small enough and if the priorities are backwards, then it is hard to do a good job. I'm not apologizing for or praising the Madden devs - the people working on the game are probably pretty typical, with some talented, some not, some hard-working, some not, etc. Probably whatever talented people work at EA are giving up and not working their best or not getting their ideas in the game or just moving on to other jobs.

What I think is happening based on what Ian says (and the pircture AJ and other sources paint) is that talent and vision are being ignored in favor of polls and user statistics. Goals and priorities come from market surveys. Changes are reactive, not proactive. Improvements get ignored because that disk space or time could be spent on something that x% of users complained about or thought they wanted. I've worked at places where management had no real vision. When you feel like nothing will get done well or on time, you just try to hang on and save your own *** rather than do a good job. Working 16 hours to make something good sounds crazy when you're working 12 hours to get through all the irrelevant and impossible objectives you were handed.

At the risk of being extra lame, Steve Jobs said, "You can't just ask customers what they want and then try to give that to them. By the time you get it built, they'll want something new." He also said, "Simple can be harder than complex: You have to work hard to get your thinking clean to make it simple." Madden doesn't follow this philosophy at all. The game keeps trying to "be a better Madden" by making changes the masses think they want and disregarding everything else. The goals keep shifting as data comes in so nothing looks complete or polished because there's always a bigger fire to put out - they *build* a new fire every year just to be sure.

# 35 roadman @ 09/08/13 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	Well actually I'm taking his word at face value when he states "we caved", you can't cave if you don't have a choice. Yes I have personally had ideas and suggestions shot down by higher ups, I'm sure anyone who as ever had someone over them has. However I have also had higher ups offer their two cents about what they thought was the best course of action BUT then left the final decision up to me, with the understanding that the end result, good, bad or otherwise, was on me. To me external pressure is just that, outside forces attempting to influence a decision ultimately out of their control and accountability. If marketing and suits were in direct control, then there would be no pressure on Ian because they would be ultimately responsible for what happens, not him.

That's just it, though, neither of us worked at Tibouron or know exactly the ins and out and the reporting structures of Tibouron. I agree with the poster above you.

Maybe he was in control of some things, but not all things? Again, without knowing the inner workings of Tibouron, how do we know?

If you are told you have X amount of budget, and you go upstairs and tell management you have this great idea of a physics engine, but it's going to put us way over the budget. Higher ups say, no chance, it's not happening, come up with an alternate plan.

A. You say to yourself, to heck with it, we're going over budget and I might lose my job over it.

B. You cave in, get your team together, and everyone come's up with an alternative plan, it's under budget and you work for one more day.

What choices are you left with? Job or no job.

Ultimately, Ian took that matter in his own hands after a few years as Creative Designer.

# 36 SageInfinite @ 09/08/13 09:15 PM

Also the higher ups at EA are very impatient. We saw that with NBA Live. They let Mike Wang leave because their wasn't an instant turn around. Brought in a hockey guy and they haven't released a game since, lol. While Mike Wang goes back to 2k to help make the stellar 2k11. These guys clearly get in the way too much, but that does not excuse the awful design decisions, implementation and vision of Tiburon.

# 37 roadman @ 09/08/13 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	We don't know, I'm only going by what Ian said in the interview. Again, Ian is not AJ, Ian was in a leadership role, arguably THE key leadership role for Madden at the time. It's like me and you are listening to two different interviews or at least have a completely different interpretation of what's being said. No biggie though.

My last say on it is even if the roles were reversed, my whole point was it's interesting that both of them say similar things about the former company they worked for, regardless of roles.

If I recall, Phil Frazier was a step above Ian and I'm sure there were layers between Phil and Ian up to Peter Moore.

Now, be on the ready for a butt-whoppin' at Lambeau next week. lol

# 38 roadman @ 09/08/13 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big FN Deal


	I meant to ask this in my last post but Road how can Ian get credit for M10 and M12 yet avoid criticism for M11 when he was the Creative Director for all 3? LOL. The Skins still have to handle business Monday Night before we focus on that.

Lol, love it.

Two out of 3 ain't bad, lol.

I critized 11 and hated it. I think Ian explained it away that 10 didn't sell, and there were things he wanted to do, but "caved in."

His name is on 11, so, yeah, he should be criticized for it.

# 39 BigDaddyHolmes @ 09/10/13 04:08 PM

Very sad. Even Ian knows this game is bad.

This confirms everything I always thought. Only I also believe the devs aren't very talented. hate to be a bit harsh, but just trying to keep it real. Seams like they aren't willing to pay big money for the best. Instead looking for kids to take little pay checks and just do what they can.

# 40 BigDaddyHolmes @ 09/10/13 04:12 PM

The thing Madden has to do next gen is come right out as a authentic nfl gameplay experience. Call it sim, or what ever you want, but it needs to be realistic and represent NFL football. They can't do it 1,2 or 3 years later

the reason is, once you build a game a certain way, you will get people who like it. Once you change it on them, those people will walk away because you changed their game. That is why the first release is so important. it sets what the game will be. The last thing you want to do is flop one new feature to the next,etc. The game needs to start good and build on what it is for the rest of the gen cycle. If not, they better change the name and make it completely new that year.

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OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings