OS - Press Row Podcast: Episode 41 - Madden NFL 25 with Gus Ramsey and Ian Cummings

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianU

I don't think it takes audacity to state that most people do not play franchise mode online or offline. It is a pretty damn niche mode. Most people do not download custom rosters or use sliders. The entire point of CCM is to stop neglecting those modes and I think it is a revolutionary and exciting concept not because of the current state of it, but for laying a solid foundation. Like was mentioned FIFA 10 to FIFA 13 was a huge improvement that was planned and executed upon. You surely remember the years where they literally added NOTHING to online franchise. Not even different menu graphics. By integrating online and offline franchise as well as superstar mode, they can update one game mode instead of 3 separate ones which means they don't have to divide development time between the 3 or repeat their efforts to add features to each mode. I personally would like to see Play Now and CCM be more integrated and allow us to do things like pick uniforms and custom playbooks for the CPU team that you can't do in CCM but can in Play Now. There is a divide there that should not exist but it is not as huge as the previous 3 I mentioned were.

I think it is audacious to make such a statement, especially when Tiburon comes back a few years later for M13 touting how many online CCMs were started. If anything a minority of gamers played Franchise in next-gen Madden until M13 because it was so bare bones without a true online compliment, not that gamers didn't play career modes in general. While CCM and CFM are good premises, there is nothing innovative or ground breaking about them, other games like FIFA, NBA2k, NCAA Football and even Madden on PC have already shown that "if you build it they will come". The only different aspect about CCM/CFM would be the inclusion of be a player/superstar in the same mode, which I would argue, did more harm than good to the mode as a whole. So while I can agree CCM and CFM have a solid premise of linking modes together so a raising tide lifts all boats, that idea is not something new nor is it executed particularly well in CCM or CFM.

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianU

It is a bold vision and one they are sticking with by the looks of it, that is only a good thing. I felt Ian's interview was optimistic and my own view of Madden is optimistic. I am not a die hard who has played that long but I do love the game of football and I do want a solid football sim which we do not have yet. I just don't understand the negativity towards Ian nor towards Josh. EA Sports is heading in the right direction implementing online career modes attached to offline career modes as well as real time physics and player traits to all their sports franchises. That seems to me to be their unified vision that they are going for. The progress is not as quick as we would like but progress is and has been made. My only complaint is I wish sports game were more like a sandbox that we had more control over to tune to the gameplay experience towards what we want which could be more arcade or more simulation. I do not like having to rely on the development team to get things right such as CPU playbooks or game speed. I want more ratings, more sliders, more customization. The Show is such a force because they give you 5 ways to hit and 5 ways to pitch and let you tune them how you wish. Every sports game should follow that lead.

I don't see it as negativity so much as warranted criticism, not towards the ideas or the people themselves but their execution. Tiburon this gen has a history of trying to do something better before ever doing it right. A prime example is the Franchise mode in Madden in comparison to the Dynasty Mode in NCAA Football. It defies common sense that Tiburon, which makes both games literally right next to each other, would have Online Dynasty in NCAA Football but fail to ever put a comparable online mode in Madden, before undertaking something like CCM and CFM.

We can agree to disagree, I just don't understand how some people seem to judge next-gen Madden in a vacuum just because Tiburon's unconventional and seemingly unnecessary design decisions on things standard in other sports games, make that game progressively more difficult to develop than others.

[MissionMaximus]

Quote: Originally Posted by MissionMaximus

How long does it take it's been going on for 9 years now. Without the NFL exclusive license this game would of gone the way of NBA Live. Competition would force EA/Tiburon's hand and that would be to compete against other NFL videogames. Competition drives innovation and quality in one's product/service. Oh, how I remember here on OS after the exclusive license with the NFL was announced how people talked about how much better the game would be with EA being able to do this and do that with unfeatherd access now with the NFL. How competition didn't necessarily mean a better product, total bullsh*t. The NFL approached EA and forced the exclusive on them it's not their fault. Then EA bought exclusives with ESPN, NCAA, Arena Football, Hall of Famers, etc... My main example is NBA Live do you honestly believe EA would of pulled Live's piece of crap if not for NBA2k or Xbox 1 do a complete 180 after E3 if not for the PS4. The answer is NO THEY WOULD NOT, COMPETITION FORCED THEM TO DO IT. The only way for madden to improve is if they lose the exclusive contract. Plain and simple.

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Oh how I wanted to like your post because the vast majority of it I agree with but then you threw in the bold. I won't rehash that topic but according to certain reports, the bold is inaccurate.

Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic with the bold comment (in regards to EA apologist if you will). I understand the business aspect of it but I don't agree with it. I was referencing the fact that people always point to the NFL approached EA but then after that EA goes and locks up other exclusives (as mentioned above) to shut out any chance of competition. Look at how things are unfolding with their competition in soccer in regards to PES and other soccer games.

"EA Voted Worst Company in America, Again"
http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertco...america-again/

[TeeDogg]

Quote: Originally Posted by RGiles36

I haven't listened to the interview, but I am glad to see that people are acknowledging that Ian Cummings was not the definitive problem. It seems there are some that shift blame to Cummings & co. in an effort to praise the work of the current regime. I recently had a healthy debate with Smitty of TSS, and while I won't put words in his mouth, his position was that the new dev team has the game in the right direction whereas Cummings did not. And that's something I disagree with. While I absolutely understand the key role of leadership on any project (in this case a videogame), the notion that Cummings had the wrong vision is incorrect IMO. In my limited interaction, Ian and that staff talked about taking the game in the exact same direction that the current dev team does. And for my money, the Ian-led M10 & M12 editions are still the best Maddens this generation has had to offer. This game hasn't gotten better since Cummings has been gone -- again my opinion. Essentially, my point is that if this game is poised to get better, tell me it's b/c of improved technology, more resources, and tangible stuff like that. If the only argument is that the current leadership is SO much better than the previous leadership, then that doesn't get me very excited. The only thing that reasoning provides is a precursor to the infamous "this new dev team needs more time," line. I've heard that message since '09 .

I agree, I had a lot of respect for Ian and what he tried to do under the circumstances. Maddens short comings were bigger than any one or two people or programers. imo

I like the direction madden is heading, but they also have invested in the tools get there now.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

I think it is audacious to make such a statement, especially when Tiburon comes back a few years later for M13 touting how many online CCMs were started. If anything a minority of gamers played Franchise in next-gen Madden until M13 because it was so bare bones without a true online compliment, not that gamers didn't play career modes in general. While CCM and CFM are good premises, there is nothing innovative or ground breaking about them, other games like FIFA, NBA2k, NCAA Football and even Madden on PC have already shown that "if you build it they will come". The only different aspect about CCM/CFM would be the inclusion of be a player/superstar in the same mode, which I would argue, did more harm than good to the mode as a whole. So while I can agree CCM and CFM have a solid premise of linking modes together so a raising tide lifts all boats, that idea is not something new nor is it executed particularly well in CCM or CFM. I don't see it as negativity so much as warranted criticism, not towards the ideas or the people themselves but their execution. Tiburon this gen has a history of trying to do something better before ever doing it right. A prime example is the Franchise mode in Madden in comparison to the Dynasty Mode in NCAA Football. It defies common sense that Tiburon, which makes both games literally right next to each other, would have Online Dynasty in NCAA Football but fail to ever put a comparable online mode in Madden, before undertaking something like CCM and CFM. We can agree to disagree, I just don't understand how some people seem to judge next-gen Madden in a vacuum just because Tiburon's unconventional and seemingly unnecessary design decisions on things standard in other sports games, make that game progressively more difficult to develop than others.

This here is the stinger, and I think we are all guilty of this at times.

It seems the transition from PS2 to current gen really ruined or scuppered our chances of seeing a good Madden this gen, and possibly next gen too.

There seems to be so much bad code (proven through the continued presence of legacy issues and constant potential gamebreaking bugs) that they cannot truly progress the game for fear of breaking some small but unrelated aspect of it.

An example was when I edited a roster file on M13 to lower OVRs of FAs and change positions of some players, such as Huff from CB back to FS aswell as some ratings adjustments to fix continued issues such as Tebow always ending up as a starting QB somewhere. I'd finally thought I'd found a way to vary my CCM experience and it took me a long time to sift through every team to remedy issues I'd seen cropping up. I booted up an Offline CCM with that roster file, only to find out that equipment was messed up, such as every flak jacket being swapped with a back plate and every back plate being swapped with a flak jacket, and for all player traits to be reversed (all non-clutch players became clutch and all clutch players became not clutch, Rivers threw perfect spirals while Rodgers didn't etc.)

What sort of deep coded issue or bug must have been prevalent for some rating and position changes to effect player traits and equipment for EVERY player???

I'd be hard pressed to find that in my PES of old (which I edited extensively updating kits, equipment, ratings and transfers due to the absence of online updates) back on the PS2. In fact, I didn't. Ever.

These sorts of mistakes are kind of accepted by Madden players, or excused more so, due to time constraints, budget restraints or suit interventions continually because we have become so used to seeing bugs in the game and relying on patches to fix them.

How is it on PS2 games, before the presence of patches, did we seldom see bugs as gamebreaking as this in Madden or any other sports game?

It seems a Tuck Fonne of terribly applied code can be to blame, and EA's continued refusal to scrap it entirely has held many Madden players back from truly enjoying an NFL game.

The issue going forward seems to be that EA Tiburon will still be depending on this innately flawed and inefficient code to launch next gen 'seamlessly'.

We have a 'new' engine, except it runs off of the same principles as current gen, with more stuff added in... Doesn't sound particularly new to me.

We will accept that next gen Madden will be bug ridden, or will see the perpetuation of legacy issues because 'making a game is hard, they don't have long to do it, suits interfere, insufficient budget, laboured with bad code from last gen' etc. etc.

We as Madden gamers, desperate for a good football game will willingly enter the same vacuum and help perpetuate the issue.

Whats most shocking is that within EA Sports, they have learnt from these issues, yet EA Tiburon hasn't.. WHY??

FIFA was riddled with the same issues as Madden is now, except they ACTUALLY blew the game up, completely re-did it, and subsequently are enjoying a huge amount of success. Why can't we see this with Madden?

Even PES are abstaining from transitioning to next gen immediately because they just blew up their entire physics engine for current gen and will likely develop on this new physics engine to suit the next gen machines to avoid the very mistake EA made with Madden from PS2 to current gen.

I'd love to believe EA Tiburon when they say that they learnt from the previous transition, because essentially, they haven't.
Sure, the game will not be the shell or entirely different experience Madden was when it first came onto this gen, but it will still be a very poor representation of football and will still carry the same basic DNA as that very same disappointing and muddied game did all those years ago.

Quote: Originally Posted by MissionMaximus

Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic with the bold comment (in regards to EA apologist if you will). I understand the business aspect of it but I don't agree with it. I was referencing the fact that people always point to the NFL approached EA but then after that EA goes and locks up other exclusives (as mentioned above) to shut out any chance of competition. Look at how things are unfolding with their competition in soccer in regards to PES and other soccer games. "EA Voted Worst Company in America, Again" http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertco...america-again/

Could you elaborate on the bold please?

Are you simply mentioning how EA's competition with PES has meant that the game has had to improve drastically and how both games are responding to each others' developments to bite into each others' market share? Or is there more with regards to this competition?

What I am seeing in this competition is EA falling into old habits and not progressing at the same rate as it initially did, for fear of alienating a casual market they are exploiting, and allowing PES a window to come back and become the premier football game.

It'll be interesting to see how that battle goes. I've avoided FIFA the last 3 years because it has poor AI, no individuality and a staleness I do not accept with football games (having been a dedicated PES player on PS2) especially in its career mode. PES was not an option because of its own unacceptable issues, but that seems to be changing.

EA get a lot of criticism on things such as Facebook posts with regards to FIFA for the lack of marked improvement each year, which is a telling sign, and is something noticeable (but surprisingly less so) on Madden's Facebook posts too.

I look forward to playing both demos and being able to decide which game is worth my money, as opposed to being in the situation I am in with Madden.

[MissionMaximus]

Quote: Originally Posted by MissionMaximus

Yeah, I was being a little sarcastic with the bold comment (in regards to EA apologist if you will). I understand the business aspect of it but I don't agree with it. I was referencing the fact that people always point to the NFL approached EA but then after that EA goes and locks up other exclusives (as mentioned above) to shut out any chance of competition. Look at how things are unfolding with their competition in soccer in regards to PES and other soccer games.

Quote: Originally Posted by infemous

Could you elaborate on the bold please? Are you simply mentioning how EA's competition with PES has meant that the game has had to improve drastically and how both games are responding to each others' developments to bite into each others' market share? Or is there more with regards to this competition? What I am seeing in this competition is EA falling into old habits and not progressing at the same rate as it initially did, for fear of alienating a casual market they are exploiting, and allowing PES a window to come back and become the premier football game. It'll be interesting to see how that battle goes. I've avoided FIFA the last 3 years because it has poor AI, no individuality and a staleness I do not accept with football games (having been a dedicated PES player on PS2) especially in its career mode. PES was not an option because of its own unacceptable issues, but that seems to be changing. EA get a lot of criticism on things such as Facebook posts with regards to FIFA for the lack of marked improvement each year, which is a telling sign, and is something noticeable (but surprisingly less so) on Madden's Facebook posts too. I look forward to playing both demos and being able to decide which game is worth my money, as opposed to being in the situation I am in with Madden.

Well I'm not a big Soccer fan but some of the games look pretty cool. Especially the Fan video of the new PES, looked really good.
Then I saw this http://www.operationsports.com/forum...itor-rain.html
It's only a matter of time before they lock up Soccer. EA doesn't like competition. Especially when FIFA has become their money maker worldwide.
Don't get me wrong I have a lot of EA games, way too much really. I like BF on PC plus a few others but when you kill off one of my Favorite games of all time not because you beat them on the virual grid-iron but through a exclusive contract that just pi$$es me off.
Do I want EA to make a NFL Football game to make me finally forget NFL2k5 absolutely, do I think their capable of doing just that one word... NO.
NFL2k5 was not perfect but wow was it ahead of it's time and when I wasn't playing it or watching it, I was thinking of it. Madden just doesn't do that for me but I truly wish it did.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by MissionMaximus

Well I'm not a big Soccer fan but some of the games look pretty cool. Especially the Fan video of the new PES, looked really good. Then I saw this http://www.operationsports.com/forum...itor-rain.html It's only a matter of time before they lock up Soccer. EA doesn't like competition. Especially when FIFA has become their money maker worldwide. Don't get me wrong I have a lot of EA games, way too much really. I like BF on PC plus a few others but when you kill off one of my Favorite games of all time not because you beat them on the virual grid-iron but through a exclusive contract that just pi$$es me off. Do I want EA to make a NFL Football game to make me finally forget NFL2k5 absolutely, do I think their capable of doing just that one word... NO. NFL2k5 was not perfect but wow was it ahead of it's time and when I wasn't playing it or watching it, I was thinking of it. Madden just doesn't do that for me but I truly wish it did.

Wow. That really is surprising and a horrible course of events.

I am the same with regards, I am most looking forward to BF on next gen and have given them too much money from Madden (bought every Madden since 10 on pre order, except 25, which I will probably buy on next gen) and loved Skate 2 and sometimes still play that.

I have felt the issue with EA Sports game, which is lost in the search for licenses, is individuality. I remember on PES back on PS2 certain players just FELT different and this is my biggest gripe with FIFA. I can't really enjoy FIFA when every player is ambidextrous and defensive AI is so bad. Additionally, I am astounded at the complete dearth of tactical options, which makes remedying issues of bad AI almost impossible.

With Madden, there is no alternative and my need for a fix as NFL football became my number 1 sport about 5/6 years ago is tough to deny, while with football/soccer, my disillusionment with the overall sport has helped wean me off of the accompanying games as the games' qualities have lowered/plateaued.
I'm conciously trying to get back into the sport but its hard when you see the sorts of money being recklessly thrown around and little concern for parity. Its a very alienating sport now, which it wasn't just 10 years ago...
Money has ruined it for me in a way, but it is still such a beautiful sport.

What seems to be the case in real life football seems to be directly affecting the games that recreate it, and thats very sad.

EA buying up licenses is a really shady move that I think should be discouraged by governing bodies, as it should be by law. It also seems to show that EA are plateauing with FIFA, too scared to make the changes that will revolutionise or continue to really progress the game for fear of alienating the MUT markets, so they flex financial muscle to kill competition instead of rising to it.

I can't say it enough, but all that is needed to be a popular, mass selling sports game, is to do your darndest every year to recreate everything that happens on and off the field and put it into your game.

PS. FIFA's career mode is such a joke that I can't believe people genuinely try to play it. It makes Madden's CCM, with bugs and everything, look like Football Manager.

[NFL_GREAT]

Think there is a bit of revisionist history going on here in regard to Ian. I realize he was well liked in the community because of his level of communication and interaction,which he should be commended for, yet he was just as guilty as any before or after him for exactly what he a accuses the current team of.

Pro-tam was ridiculous. A scripted, canned animation that looked like something out of rugby rAther than NFL football. "Everything you see on Sundays" was a "back of the box" marketing ploy.

The Infinity engine while not perfect is light years better than what madden had prior to 13, which was NO physics. This year its better than 13, and i hope they keep building on it and improving it going forward.

Madden 25 IMO is by fAr the best this gen. The precision modifier adds a level of depth if you choose to use it. The IE 2.0 impacts the look and feel of the gAme, OL blocking is as good as its ever been. Even foot planting and changing direction is much better than previous versions. Is the game perfect, no, and it never will be. I'd like to see some more live shown toward the defense. Yet if you choose to use all the tools given to you on defense you can play much better defense overall.

I like what Cam Weber has done the past two years. Hope this team continues to add to, and improve upon what is here now instead of scrapping and stripping.

[TheBuddyHobbs]

I always liked Ian. I hope somehow he can become a lead designer of a next gen football game. That would be very interesting.