NBA Elite 11 News Post

NBA Elite 11 Interview with Creative Director David Littman

05:04 PM - August 24, 2010 by RaychelSnr

We recently had a chance to interview David Littman, creative director at EA Canada for NHL Slapshot, NBA Elite and the NHL series. He helped to oversee the re-imagining of the NHL series when the current-generation consoles were released, and he is now filling a similar role for NBA Elite 11. We wanted this interview to focus on the differences between the rebuilds of NHL and Elite, and we also wanted to get a bit deeper into why NBA Elite is going in a different direction this year.

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# 61 B-Ball Life @ 08/26/10 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Most of my stuff was done ( I had fixed a really bad physcis bug on the Saturday before I left), but there was still some bug fixing and tuning that needed to happen while I was away. So we split my features up amongst 3 other engineers on the team who were familiar with my features, or were working on similar features. They knew they'd be taking over so we had time to discuss details before I left. I was also available on email in case of an emergency, but it was never needed. Everything worked out well.

Man Am I Excited for this game.

And i Quoted the post because "I Know Where I Wanna Take My Talents"(Lebron Reference) when i graduate college. lol

(Hoping Anyway

)

# 62 Boilerbuzz @ 08/26/10 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jano


	Actually some of the guys from the other EA dev teams are working on this game. And the engines (ANT, RTP, Real-AI) the devs are using on Elite are a lot better then the ones they have previously used imo.

I'm sure there are. But what does that really mean? Does that means there's a bunch of hockey heads working on a basketball game? That doesn't sound too good. Who's working on NHL? Why disrupt a team that's got it going? I don't know if I buy how much "better" the toolkit is now. ANT has been hyped up since the start of the current console generation. It's not like it generates animations. It just manages the animation blends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jano


	RTP allowed the game to finally have features 2K's had for years like the ability to go for steals while moving. Or enable the ball to be "live" so contact with the it actually matters. RTP also got rid of canned animations so we can finally do some basic things like block shots off the backboard.

So, are you calling "canned" animation the animations that included the ball? Animations that FORCE the ball into a state that lines up animation and that now, those are gone. If so, I can buy that they are using fewer animations that take control of the ball. That's cool. If that's what RTP gives then that's a significant upgrade to the series.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jano


	It also added in some much needed physicality to the game and it effects the game everywhere from the post to the perimeter. We will finally be able to see a difference between Lebron and CP3 when they are charging down the lane. The ANT technology gets rid of the ball warping on the rebounds.

That's been my interpretation of the work they've been doing and that's all great. No problem here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jano


	Real-AI will actually cause players use moves they would in real life. This could potentially be the end of Bynum doing euro steps, or Shaq shooting fadeaways.

But wasn't DNA supposed to do all of this already? Does that mean DNA came and went? And, not to compare the GAMES, but why does this sound like VIP? I still have nightmares of the thought of playing Steve O's VIP in NFL2K5... Ugh! VIP is cool because it's more than that. But trying to draw me in with the "playing the celebrity" angle is a no-go. Anyway, I digress.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jano


	These new engines are adding in some MUCH needed improvements to this basketball series. And its doing it at a much faster rate then they would have using the old engine.

But there is no new engine man. Not really. They've had ANT in the game for a long while now. RTP isn't a physics engine per se. It's a system of methods and procedures that govern interactions between systems. Same with "Real-AI".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jano


	So your right it probably doesn't make the games equal but it definitely puts them on the same playing field though. Because now the tech is similar so things you see in one game could be possible in the other.

Just so it's clear, my primary point was that using NHL procedures as a panacea for NBA's ills feels kinda iffy to me. And using the reputation of NHL to hype up Elite feels iffy as well. When it's all said and done, if I'm buying elite because of NHL and Jam, then something smells rotten in Vancouver... It just makes me a bit apprehensive and unfortunately, I haven't seen anything that makes me feel less apprehension. That's all I'm saying. I want to see to full on 5on5 videos. There's no reason why we shouldn't be seeing something.

# 63 Boilerbuzz @ 08/26/10 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedus


	what' wrong ?!! dude!! he already said he finished most part of his work and the rest ones divided to others!!

I responded to his original post. I didn't see the followup and I didn't NEED to see it because he doesn't have to explain anything to anybody. I just expressed the fact that it really shocked me. End of story.

# 64 Jano @ 08/26/10 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	But wasn't DNA supposed to do all of this already? Does that mean DNA came and went? And, not to compare the GAMES, but why does this sound like VIP? I still have nightmares of the thought of playing Steve O's VIP in NFL2K5... Ugh! VIP is cool because it's more than that. But trying to draw me in with the "playing the celebrity" angle is a no-go. Anyway, I digress. But there is no new engine man. Not really. They've had ANT in the game for a long while now. RTP isn't a physics engine per se. It's a system of methods and procedures that govern interactions between systems. Same with "Real-AI".

DNA and the Real AI are working at the same time in the game according to the devs. So the system should be pretty dynamic, two of the devs have went in depth on the feature in the real-AI thread.

And the new engines being used here are new to this basketball series, none of this stuff was in Live 10. If they had been using ANT last year I don't remember them ever mentioning it.

And I already know RTP and "real AI" definitely weren't in because none of that was stuff a lot of that stuff wasn't possible last year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	I'm sure there are. But what does that really mean? Does that means there's a bunch of hockey heads working on a basketball game? That doesn't sound too good. Who's working on NHL? Why disrupt a team that's got it going? I don't know if I buy how much "better" the toolkit is now. ANT has been hyped up since the start of the current console generation. It's not like it generates animations. It just manages the animation blends.

To clarify the reason why I said the guys from other EA dev teams are working on this game is experience. They have experience with the ANT and Real AI engines so the system wasn't just dumped on the Live 10 team. Its in the hands of some guys that have experience with the stuff also.

And even if ANT is only improving animation blends that was also another area Live 10 needed improvement in. All of these improvements won't sound like much to people that have been playing 2K over Live. But for someone who enjoyed Live 10, like myself, they are some much needed upgrades.

They will bring Elite a lot closer to the level of basketball that has been featured in 2K for years and thats all I've been asking for since Live 07. I want an EA basketball game to finally be able to compete with 2K on all levels of gameplay and it looks like these new engines are going to be able to do just that.

# 65 Live_4real @ 08/26/10 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	Just so it's clear, my primary point was that using NHL procedures as a panacea for NBA's ills feels kinda iffy to me. And using the reputation of NHL to hype up Elite feels iffy as well. When it's all said and done, if I'm buying elite because of NHL and Jam, then something smells rotten in Vancouver... It just makes me a bit apprehensive and unfortunately, I haven't seen anything that makes me feel less apprehension. That's all I'm saying. I want to see to full on 5on5 videos. There's no reason why we shouldn't be seeing something.

As a consumer your concerns are valid sir, but let me break it down to you,, based on developers input (correct me if I am wrong)

The ANT, RTP and Real AI, are technologies that existed before Elite 11 development, and no one is trying to hype them saying that they are being used for first time or anything like that

But unfortunately for us B-ball fans, only this year EA decided to put at lives/elite disposal.

And why people say that this game can be especial in the near future if not this year???? Because they seen what NHL and Fight night were able to do

As David Littman said, this development team is a all-star one, and because these technologies are not bran NEW, the experience these guys already have with them, makes me thing that the knowledge about these technologies is wider then in the past

So the major improvement that live 10 needed to do (let�s be fair), can be achieved, even if it takes 3 years, past games had a very very dark future and some people said that Live/Elite was dead

And the NHL comparison that you mention is easy to explain, that is the main goal, that is what EA is targeting, I am talking quality wise, not sales (that I don�t know)

And your consern about the "Hockey dude" and his "Hockey team" developing the game, I recall Mr. Wang when he was a EA worker, he said that EA had guys that had vast knowledge about b-ball on the team, so that isn�t/wasn�t the problem in past years

So if I had to choose, I would choose guys that know how to take full advantage of the physics engine(for example), rather then a b-ball expert, and some these guys will know a lot about b-ball after one entire year working around it, so that is not a problem

Hey, once again, this is pure expeculation, based on facts that they put out about technologies, so take it as it is....

PeAcE

# 66 rEAnimator @ 08/26/10 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz


	No offense man, but this sounds strange to me. I would think you would still be burning the midnight oil until the game was done, done. Again, not implying anything. It just caught me off guard.

I'm probably getting too personal here but yeah, leaving for vacation before the project was done was one of the hardest things I've had to do in my professional career.

I had originally booked my vacation for 2 weeks after we were supposed to be done. As has been mentioned before, we got an extension part way through the project which gave us more time.

I ended up canceling the first week of my vacation so I could work into that extension, but my wife is a teacher and has to go back to work in September. Summer is the only time she gets off.

She had put up with me working weekends and late hours for over 6 months, hardly ever seeing me.

As passionate as we all are about the games we make, a balance has to be struck and out of respect for her I could not work through to the end.

Believe me, I gave it all I had before I left.

Too much information I'm sure, but a good reminder that the people who work on these games are real people with families and lives outside of the job.

We pour our heart and soul into making these games because we love it, but you've got to keep an eye on the big picture as well. Sometimes it's not an easy thing to do.

# 67 Beluba @ 08/26/10 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	I'm probably getting too personal here but yeah, leaving for vacation before the project was done was one of the hardest things I've had to do in my professional career. I had originally booked my vacation for 2 weeks after we were supposed to be done. As has been mentioned before, we got an extension part way through the project which gave us more time. I ended up canceling the first week of my vacation so I could work into that extension, but my wife is a teacher and has to go back to work in September. Summer is the only time she gets off. She had put up with me working weekends and late hours for over 6 months, hardly ever seeing me. As passionate as we all are about the games we make, a balance has to be struck and out of respect for her I could not work through to the end. Believe me, I gave it all I had before I left. Too much information I'm sure, but a good reminder that the people who work on these games are real people with families and lives outside of the job. We pour our heart and soul into making these games because we love it, but you've got to keep an eye on the big picture as well. Sometimes it's not an easy thing to do.

You're right, Geoff. Too personal.

# 68 rEAnimator @ 08/26/10 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beluba


	You're right, Geoff. Too personal.

Good therapy though

# 69 Beluba @ 08/26/10 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Good therapy though

You know what always helped me... go kick Nate in the shins and tell him to make you some sig shots.

# 70 Boilerbuzz @ 08/26/10 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Good therapy though

Hey man. You didn't have to do that. I had a feeling it was something to that effect and I would have done the exact same thing in your shoes. I'm sorry I posted that. It should have been a PM.

And to Jano and Live_4Real, great replies guys. I'm good. Looking forward to trying out the demo.

# 71 loadleft @ 08/26/10 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpnp


	i get your point but as some have stated. you guys dont get it... -0

I've been gone for a few days but just to respond quickly: FOR ME: I'm a stickler for reality (or at least plausible reality) and working hard to add a skill that Rondo doesn't REALLY have isn't realistic to me, it seems like fantasy play. I'd prefer my simulation of the NBA to just give me control of the players and coaching within their true to life limitations. However, it's no problem, I'll give it a shot. If I don't like it I won't buy. At this point the demo would have to be phenomenal though because it's already been announced that the game won't have key features that I prefer and if I don't buy it, it'll be the first time I've never bought the EA game.

# 72 Tha_Kid @ 08/26/10 09:51 PM

Looking at the successful range for Chris Paul in the Quick Clip, i think you'll (we'll) be surprised at how hard it would actually be to consistently hit outside shots with a non-shooter like Rondo. In real life, no one makes more than half of their shots taken outside of the paint. I think Elite will reflect that pretty well.

# 73 �roke @ 08/27/10 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpnp


	i get your point. but i dont think your getting mines. there are people out there like yourself. they want these sports games to play like the actual players and teams. But they dont realize, in order for that to happen. You my friend cant touch the controller. and all that would happen is A.I. coach and A.I. players vs A.I. coach and other A.I. players. the moment me or you touch the sticks. it now turns into two things. I'm the coach(if everything from subbing and plays are not on auto) and I'm the brains behind every player i control. its up to me to decide whether or not shaq only dunks, or if he shoots the sky hook and most likely bricks it cause he aint kareem . doesn't matter. its my choice. I'm the mind of oneal. i control his entire body/movements and decision making. the only thing they can do is provide me with the same guy with the same look, size(height,weight,length)/attributes as his real life counterpart(all the ratings). now what i ATTEMPT to do with him has zero to do with his attributes. now what i actually accomplish and how fast i get it. will have everything to do with these real life attributes. this is the way the game is made. what EA is doing is taking the last bit of that A.I. picking what to do, for you and placing all of you in the players brain. so its up to you what you ATTEMPT to do. no one said you would be successful, slightly successful, very successful. that depends on how much you practice with different players. One more thing that no one is talking about. IF what EA says actually happens the way i described it. Running to Miami, the lakers(my boys), Boston. will no longer = an auto win or an auto close game vs most people. because what you do with the guy is what wins the game. not what his rating is. the ratings make it easier or harder for you to perform the move you are trying to perform. thats it and thats all. its all on you now. some people dont want to see this because it takes away the AUTO win you would usually get with superteams or superplayers. sorry fellas. ya have to know what you're doing now. and to the 2k fan boys out there. read this and listen. Because EA has catered to much to the average "i just want to hop on and have fast fun" fan. thats why the game went from a great game to nothing close to a sim, to trying to get back there and exceed anything they've ever done. EA was trying to cater to the average joe gamer. not the true basketball game lover. that has changed. and those people are still fans. and guess what they can still use the buttons to do the CPU AI choice making they are use to. but if someone else knows what they heck they are doing on those sticks and they actually work on their game. night night to the average joe gamer that liked old LIVE. he will be hurting and will stop playing the game because he/she probably cant take losing and never wanted to practice to make perfect. so he will start playing NBA jams. and thats the beauty of this year. there's a game for all of us.

GREAT post!

# 74 loadleft @ 08/27/10 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingpnp


	i get your point. but i dont think your getting mines. there are people out there like yourself. they want these sports games to play like the actual players and teams. But they dont realize, in order for that to happen. You my friend cant touch the controller. and all that would happen is A.I. coach and A.I. players vs A.I. coach and other A.I. players. the moment me or you touch the sticks. it now turns into two things. I'm the coach(if everything from subbing and plays are not on auto) and I'm the brains behind every player i control. its up to me to decide whether or not shaq only dunks, or if he shoots the sky hook and most likely bricks it cause he aint kareem . doesn't matter. its my choice. I'm the mind of oneal. i control his entire body/movements and decision making. the only thing they can do is provide me with the same guy with the same look, size(height,weight,length)/attributes as his real life counterpart(all the ratings). now what i ATTEMPT to do with him has zero to do with his attributes. now what i actually accomplish and how fast i get it. will have everything to do with these real life attributes. this is the way the game is made. what EA is doing is taking the last bit of that A.I. picking what to do, for you and placing all of you in the players brain. so its up to you what you ATTEMPT to do. no one said you would be successful, slightly successful, very successful. that depends on how much you practice with different players. One more thing that no one is talking about. IF what EA says actually happens the way i described it. Running to Miami, the lakers(my boys), Boston. will no longer = an auto win or an auto close game vs most people. because what you do with the guy is what wins the game. not what his rating is. the ratings make it easier or harder for you to perform the move you are trying to perform. thats it and thats all. its all on you now. some people dont want to see this because it takes away the AUTO win you would usually get with superteams or superplayers. sorry fellas. ya have to know what you're doing now. and to the 2k fan boys out there. read this and listen. Because EA has catered to much to the average "i just want to hop on and have fast fun" fan. thats why the game went from a great game to nothing close to a sim, to trying to get back there and exceed anything they've ever done. EA was trying to cater to the average joe gamer. not the true basketball game lover. that has changed. and those people are still fans. and guess what they can still use the buttons to do the CPU AI choice making they are use to. but if someone else knows what they heck they are doing on those sticks and they actually work on their game. night night to the average joe gamer that liked old LIVE. he will be hurting and will stop playing the game because he/she probably cant take losing and never wanted to practice to make perfect. so he will start playing NBA jams. and thats the beauty of this year. there's a game for all of us.

I understand your premise, and if this is the way you prefer your games so be it, I don't. Just because one wants their players to have their real life limitations does not mean that they want to see the game lock you into exactly what you see on TV, that's a very narrow interpretation of what I said. Why not allow the user to practice enough until Shaq can dribble like Iverson since in reality if Shaq put his mind to it he could? I prefer to have my brain control the player's true to life abilities not create new ones.

I see this "practice until you do what the real life player really cant" way in the same vein as EA adding a workout facility in GM mode and allow you to boost players ratings. I never use that stuff because I want them to maintain their true to life abilities not ones that exist only in the video game world.

If I like Elite 11 I'll just play it against the CPU, period! I won't be able to tolerate playing someone that turns Rondo into a 3 point threat, FOR ME that won't represent the NBA it'll be FBA (Fantasy Basketball Association). I think that by going this route EA has opended them selves up to people saying the game is "arcadish" again. It took them long enough to shake that last time. It makes me wonder at the end of the day why even call it the NBA if it's not limited or representative of the realities that are the NBA.

In that debate rEAnimator said there are two schools of thought, I prefer the one where the game only allows the player's real life abilities and I figure out how to use them in a way that's successful or maybe even more successful than the player. How many games have you watched and said: "boy why didn't Artest past the ball instead of shooting that stupid 3?" I can remember at least one game, LOL. I've never said "boy I wish I could get into Artest's body and practice until I can make the 3 and then that would be a good shot". With that said I am looking to control the decision making process not to alter reality.

# 75 Hulkules @ 08/27/10 10:36 AM

Great post loadleft.... Im with you on this one. I too want limitations not fantasy basketball where I train Rondo to be a good shooter. For the first time since Live 95 I may have to try 2K. Im hoping Im wrong and I will try the demo though..

# 76 Blue_Monkey @ 08/27/10 04:21 PM

Sounds like the most important things is the GAMER'S SKILLS. This is exactly the opposite of what sports games should be. Ratings mean nothing and it's just about how good you are with the sticks.

The best new part in f.e. Madden 11 is that it matters whether your team has good players or not. I hate being able to win with any team if I'm good enough at the game, and it looks like that's what NBA Elite is about.

# 77 rEAnimator @ 08/27/10 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue_Monkey


	Sounds like the most important things is the GAMER'S SKILLS. This is exactly the opposite of what sports games should be. Ratings mean nothing and it's just about how good you are with the sticks. The best new part in f.e. Madden 11 is that it matters whether your team has good players or not.

Ratings absolutely matter in Elite 11. They determine how difficult the shot will be to execute, along with numerous other things including strength, weight, dribbling skill to name just a few.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blue_Monkey


	I hate being able to win with any team if I'm good enough at the game, and it looks like that's what NBA Elite is about.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. If you're playing as the weakest team in the league against the best team in the league you want it to be impossible to win? If so what's the point in playing?

If that's not the case, and you do want to be able to win, the only thing that could cause you to win or lose is how good you are at the game.

Please help me understand because this seems to be a sticking point for a lot of people. I don't want to dismiss it outright, if there is a concern we're not addressing I really want to get it so we can do a better job in the future.

For me, games are fun when my actions determine the outcome of the game in a clear and consistent way so I can learn them and get better at them, just like the real life sport.

Ratings determine how easy/hard certain actions are with certain people.

And that is what Elite 11 delivers.

# 78 Blue_Monkey @ 08/27/10 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameplayovergraphics


	but on each individual shot you are responsible for missing or making the shot.

As a video game player, I don't want that. IRL the player in the game is responsible, not some dude hitting buttons with good timing or something.

I'm responsible for the decisions and positioning of the player I'm controlling but EVERYTHING else should be based on ratings and good AI and nothing else.

That's the way you get enjoyment of building a team and seeing your team either becoming great or (sometimes even more enjoyably) just not being able to put a winning team together seeing that yeah, I can't win with these guys.

This is the heart of simulation sports gaming to me and it just seems NBA Elite is as far off as possible. Stats might be ok, but if the game feels like described... no thanks.

# 79 Blue_Monkey @ 08/27/10 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rEAnimator


	Please help me understand because this seems to be a sticking point for a lot of people. I don't want to dismiss it outright, if there is a concern we're not addressing I really want to get it so we can do a better job in the future. For me, games are fun when my actions determine the outcome of the game in a clear and consistent way so I can learn them and get better at them, just like the real life sport. Ratings determine how easy/hard certain actions are with certain people. And that is what Elite 11 delivers.

Thanks for the reply, don't mean to hate here.

But I'm gonna use Madden 11 as an example. Say I'm playing offense with the Saints or the Lions. I control the QB and RB and make the decisions but all other players are AI controlled. I can't make a lot of throws with the Lions and my line just blocks better in the running game with the Saints.

As a result, there are things happening regardless of my skills playing the video game. Also my knowledge of the game of football has some meaning in my results. I love seeing my team play as a TEAM - not just me playing a video game - and the results come based on how good my team is.

I do like the fact that jumpers will be easier or harder to make with a guy based on ratings. Just so long as the AI controlled players have meaningful ratings f.e. defensive skills, so it's noticeable when you're playing with AND against teams that are good or bad at certain things.

# 80 Blue_Monkey @ 08/27/10 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gameplayovergraphics


	see, the thing is, you aren't being consistent. on one hand you don't mind taking control of the decisions and positioning of the player, yet you don't want control of whether the shot goes in or not. so in essence, you have expectations for the way a game should play that are contradictory, and definitely not what you are trying to say they are. who are you to say which aspects of the game should be completely sim and which parts of the game shouldn't?

I was pretty clear in my earlier posts. I want to be a part of the team, not the whole team.

When I'm guarding the PG (or which ever player I'm playing as, offense, defense, doesn't matter), I want the rest of the team play to their ratings and therefor have a significant meaning to the way the game is playing.

If I have bad big men, I should be dominated inside.

If I have great offensive rebounders, I expect to get the realistic 13-14 per game on average.

This should be the basis for sim gaming.

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