Madden NFL 11 News Post

Madden NFL 11: The How and Why's of Hit Sticking

01:04 PM - August 23, 2010 by RaychelSnr

The Madden series is one that originally helped to define the term "video game stats." So it should come as no surprise that Madden 11's short-lived shelf life is already being badgered by a near-unanimous questioning of "where's the defense?"

For football fans trying to reconcile themselves to another "offense-heavy" version of Madden, it feels like forever -- not six years ago -- when Ray Lewis first jumped off the cover of Madden NFL 2005, sprinted through the A gap and finally showed armchair quarterbacks what it was like to "Fear the D."

Line shifts, defensive hot routes and the brand-new "Hit Stick" were some of the key features that helped distance Madden NFL 2005 from the sideline-rollouts and 70-yard streak passes of Madden NFL 2004. After all, let's not forget that Madden 04 is most-remembered for the "god status" it ascribed to cover athlete Michael Vick and his unstoppable, scramble-based offense.

But while the marketing of Madden NFL 2005 heavily emphasized the game's new defensive features, it's the balanced gameplay for which Madden NFL 2005 has become fondly remembered -- a balance that, thus far, remains nonexistent in Madden NFL 2011.

Read More - Madden NFL 11: The How and Why's of Hit Sticking

Game: Madden NFL 11Reader Score: 6/10 - Vote Now
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# 21 R9NALD9 @ 08/24/10 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guaps


	I'll try and make this short First of all, I found your post to be a great read. I just want to further elaborate on some of the issues you mention. While EA sports has got the acceleration 'right' for quarterback vs. defensive linemen, as you write, they haven't got acceleration right. Acceleration is how fast you reach top speed, which the game is not able to simulate. I mentioned this first when EA released the locomotion blog. Think of acceleration as a car race. Car A is able to accelerate from 0-60 mph in 5 seconds, but has a top speed of 60 mph. Car B accelerates from 0-60 mph in 8 seconds, but has a top speed of 120 mph. If the cars start at the same time, Car A will accelerate away from Car B for the first 8 seconds, period. After 8 seconds Car B will start to close the gap and eventually take the lead, if the track is long enough. Now try looking at the locomotion blog, or put Wes Welker next to Randy Moss in practice mode and run streaks and you will see that Madden 11 unfortunately doesn't get it right. Secondly, you mention Newton's Second Law of Motion (Force = Mass x Acceleration), but if Madden doesn't get acceleration right, and does not have player mass (at least with the current physics engine), then there is no possibility of getting hit power right. My theory behind the Hit Power rating is, that linebackers and defensive backs usually are in motion (mass x acceleration) when tackling, thus appearing to have more hit power. But defensive linemen would need less speed to obtain the same force due to their size and weight, and because they usually aren't at high speeds when tackling, they get a low Hit Power rating. If EA Sports were to fix acceleration and incorporate mass into the game, tackling would be function of Newton's Third Law of Motion, Force versus Force, which is the essence of football. In the above motion refers to the momentum of a player.

Very intelligent and correct post! I salute you buddy!

# 22 ironhorse911 @ 08/24/10 10:55 AM

i have never been able to corrrectly use the hit stick, every once in a while i get lucky. however, i am always trying to use it and i miss a lot of tackles because of it. and 2005 was a good year for Madden and Nfl 2k

# 23 wilson2k11 @ 08/24/10 03:15 PM

It goes to show how random all of Madden's ratings are, they just like play some dumb guessing game as to who should get what ratings, or just because there a well known guy they deserve high ratings. It would be nice if for once Madden did a real study on players to determine ratings, just take like a 100 different players, all different ages and sizes to compare in all kinds of "sports science" type studys, maybe then they could find out if maybe rookies are faster, more powerful, hit hard and all that, like when you compare Suh to Lewis and Suhs hitting being 60% harder, maybe all older players are in that same range as Lewis, thus all younger players and maybe rookies should have high hit power ratings.

But as I say, be nice if they did a study like that with all kinds of offensive and defensive players, could make for the best and most real ratings ever in a sports game. And if done right, and good enough it could work for a long time.

Also could go a long ways to also having proper progression in a franchise mode. Just imagine if they tested a player on everything, like is done at the combine, and for sports science one year, then the next year test him again, and the year after test him again. And if they did that with all kinds of players of all ages, just imagine how great that info would be on finding out if someone gets faster, arms get stronger, awareness gets better and everything, I bet alot of players would be more then willing to take part in testing in the off season, oh well, can hope for the future anyway. And great column.

# 24 guaps @ 08/24/10 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilson2k11


	It goes to show how random all of Madden's ratings are, they just like play some dumb guessing game as to who should get what ratings, or just because there a well known guy they deserve high ratings. It would be nice if for once Madden did a real study on players to determine ratings, just take like a 100 different players, all different ages and sizes to compare in all kinds of "sports science" type studys, maybe then they could find out if maybe rookies are faster, more powerful, hit hard and all that, like when you compare Suh to Lewis and Suhs hitting being 60% harder, maybe all older players are in that same range as Lewis, thus all younger players and maybe rookies should have high hit power ratings.

Easy now buddy

The two 'scientific' tests aren't compatible. And here is why...

First, the two tests aren't identical.

Second, the test with Ray Lewis show him (at approximately 250 lbs) smash a door with more than 1,000 lbs of force from 3 yards away. Simple calculus shows that his forward momentum was approximately 9 mph at impact.

The example with Suh shows that Suh hits with 3,200 lbs of force at a weight of 307 lbs. Again simple calculus shows that Suh forward momentum at impact is approximately 23 mph as he throws himself forward into the tackle dummy. That is 73% faster than his top speed - in Madden terms his speed rating.

If Lewis were to hit at the same forward momentum (23 mph) as Suh, he would have tackled the dummy with more than 2,600 lbs of force because he weighs approximately 250 lbs.

In short Suh supposedly "only" hits 23% harder than Lewis all things equal.

Edit: Suh's speed rating in Madden 11 is 71. That translates into a Hit Power rating of 123, if his hit power were to be 73% higher than his speed rating.

# 25 adembroski @ 08/25/10 05:49 AM

Wow... math...

C'mon, are you all serious? I'm sorry, throw all your math out the damn window: Some people know how to hit! Period!

I'll take a Kris Jenkins hit over Adam Archuletta anyday. Archuletta was small, slow, and couldn't cover anybody, but he could knock the stuffing out of people... and I'll be he wouldn't even register on this tackling dummy. Some people know how to hit, period.

As for low defensive lineman hit power ratings... they don't get high hit power because the ratings are based on scouting reports, primarily, and defensive linemen rarely get opportunities to line up big hits. How often do you see a big hit from a tackle? How about a safety? It's pretty clear why... we simply don't have the data on these guys to make a judgment.

And the fact that they don't hit people like that means I seriously doubt they ever learn to really lay lumber like a John Lynch (another little guy that proves all your equations mean precisely f*** all).

# 26 Double C @ 08/25/10 06:18 AM

Very interesting read. But playing Madden would become a full time job (without salary) if we had to know every rating of every potential ball carrier.

# 27 guaps @ 08/25/10 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adembroski


	Wow... math... C'mon, are you all serious? I'm sorry, throw all your math out the damn window: Some people know how to hit! Period! I'll take a Kris Jenkins hit over Adam Archuletta anyday. Archuletta was small, slow, and couldn't cover anybody, but he could knock the stuffing out of people... and I'll be he wouldn't even register on this tackling dummy. Some people know how to hit, period. As for low defensive lineman hit power ratings... they don't get high hit power because the ratings are based on scouting reports, primarily, and defensive linemen rarely get opportunities to line up big hits. How often do you see a big hit from a tackle? How about a safety? It's pretty clear why... we simply don't have the data on these guys to make a judgment. And the fact that they don't hit people like that means I seriously doubt they ever learn to really lay lumber like a John Lynch (another little guy that proves all your equations mean precisely f*** all).

You feel that math is obsolete, I respect that.

However, mathematics is the language of science and explains everything on the football field from hits (even guys like Adam Archuletta and John Lynch) and pursuit angles to throws and injuries. Example: A knee ligament can handle 500 pounds of force to be exerted prior to rupture.

And yes, some people do know how to hit, but they still have to respect the laws of physics. It's plain and simple.

A quick example of math in football. An offensive line (consisting of 5 people) weighing approximately 1500 pounds in total has to create a forward momentum of more than 15 mph to produce a push of 1100 pounds on the defensive line (usually consisting of 3 or 4 people). Now this is a simplification because the offensive and defensive line aren't one entity, but consists of several individual players. This does give us an idea as to why more heavy people up front is usually a good thing when running up the middle all things equal.

# 28 Triathlete_201 @ 08/25/10 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rooney8


	Do casual fans actually enjoy not being able to do anything on Defense?

I think so. Playing D is too complicated for the casual player. Most won't even attempt to do anything or just control a D lineman and hope the CPU makes a play. It's all about the O for them. I'm talking with experience about the casuals. I have a couple buddies who'd I call casuals and that's exactly the way they play...and they love this year's Madden..

# 29 sniperhare @ 08/25/10 10:10 AM

Yet another reason for ratings being made in a standard that will treat every player equally and not set ratings based on performance, fame, or position.

If a QB turns out to have 90 speed or a DT 83 speed give it to them. Tyson Alualu ran a faster 40 time than Suh and McCoy yet his speed is slower.

EA needs to hire a team of people to evaluate the entire NFL and truly give us an accurate depiction of the players. They then need to hide the Overall rating.

# 30 Exonerated @ 08/25/10 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sniperhare


	Yet another reason for ratings being made in a standard that will treat every player equally and not set ratings based on performance, fame, or position. If a QB turns out to have 90 speed or a DT 83 speed give it to them. Tyson Alualu ran a faster 40 time than Suh and McCoy yet his speed is slower. EA needs to hire a team of people to evaluate the entire NFL and truly give us an accurate depiction of the players. They then need to hide the Overall rating.

40 yard times are severely overated.

Padless, on tartan, no reaction time is nothing like football.

# 31 Smoke316 @ 08/25/10 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCNABB51BOI


	just beacuse he had decent numbers doesnt mean he can run routes and catchs as good as a dallas clark or tony gonzo this is a good read if the hit stick worked as advertised this year if a WR runs a post you time up the hit i have yet to see a ball jarred loose not 1 it doesnt work .

iv done it plenty of times..with LBs and Safeties. It depends on the WR catch in traffic as well. Just because its a low CIT doesnt always mean hes going to drop it either.. but usually they do..sometimes they get lucky and catch it. someo f you guys want everythign all the time..it doesnt work like that. Last yr the hitstick was WAY too easy. i didnt even use the taclke button. This yr is completely different i rarely use the hit stick unless im in a crowd of peeps and could afford to miss. you guys have to adjust and stop the whining. I love the fact that when i see a hard hit now i get excited for it.. as opposed to last yr where it was commonplace.

# 32 vampire212 @ 08/25/10 02:29 PM

i think the graphics are better then madden 10 and so is the overall game play I was just playing madden 10 and i wish i was challenging this person on madden 11.

# 33 StormJH1 @ 08/25/10 05:05 PM

archibalduk commented above that there is no real explanation given as to what a "power" or "finesse" move does on defense. I think the biggest problem with defense on the current-gen consoles versus the PS2 generation is that they removed the entire gameplay mechanic on lineplay that allowed you to "push" guys or swim/spin in a certain direction. That's five different control options for jostling/lineplay alone!

"Push" was my favorite because it gave you a reason to play as a big, slow nose tackle. A powerful DT can disrupt blocking schemes and clear lanes for MLB's to make that tackle. If you look at Ray Lewis in the 3-4, he has almost had a Siragusa or Ngota type guy clearing paths for him to allow him to get to the ballcarrier.

But in recent Madden and NCAA games, you don't have that ability. You don't actually control power moves, and are left to basically lean to the left or right and hope the RB runs right into you. There's no sense of power or weight at all.

# 34 miaturne @ 09/01/10 10:15 AM

@rickmitchell22

I released a re-rated roster for Madden 04 PC, using an online editor (don't remember if it was finn's or not). It based strength purely on weight and speed and acceleration purely on 40 times. EVERYBODY's speed was brought to a narrower scope (74-85) and suddenly, outside running was possible, kick returns were possible, punt returns were possible, drafting hogs on the line actually made a difference, and WR/DB's got rocked when they got hit by a guy twice their size, but could at the same time dust em in the open field. It also made outstanding players stand out: when only 4 guys in the game had a speed over 85, those guys were dusting everybody! When only a handful of guys had strength above 75, they could slice through opponents, D/OL's like a hot knife through butter.

Problem 1 is the game's engine, which requires 20+ ratings because every interaction relies on motion captured animations (hence, no gang tackles). Back when I re-rated, there was no hit power rating, but in order to add variety for hitstick animations, they had to add it. Simply put, the game is so reliant on such a wide variety of ratings to fuel various motion captured animations, that re-rating players would not help; instead, they must adopt a physics-based engine like NBA Elite, NHL, and Backbreaker.

Problem 2: EA's # 1 concern is sales, period, not accurate player interactions or depictions. The hot player of the week, the player overhyped b/c he has a colorful personality (i.e. Tim Duncan complex) or guy on all the commercial endorsements will get better ratings just for the fact that he is a more visible, marketable player and can be pushed by EA easier than a nobody with more raw ability. Ex. Antonio Gates, Troy P, and OchoCinco will get high ratings (regardless of their raw performance) just for the fact that they are better known than some bench player who may have more strength, speed, accel, hit power, etc. So long as marketability drives Madden, be ready for mis-rated players. This has been emblematic since 07.

I have since moved on from madden (I tried madden 09 and wasn't thrilled and got snookered into madden 10 and lost all hope), but really hope that they someday return to the glory days of Madden 04-05, because madden is w/o question the best looking game out. I highly doubt it though; the Maddens now simply appear to be "expansion packs" of the previous year's version.

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