Madden 2010 News Post

Madden NFL 10: PRO-TAK - What's NOT There Yet...

02:19 PM - May 9, 2009 by Ian_Cummings

I think more and more videos are going to be coming out by our marketing department and from preview events...just wanted to let you guys know what's missing from the feature still that we are working on (this also is a bit of a response to apex and co. and their critiques).

The biggest missing feature is probably carrying through velocity from original animations -> PRO-TAK. You can see that on the Lendale White video...meaning that when players transition from a normal mocap tackle into PRO-TAK stuff their velocities get zeroed out (meaning they stop in place). This will definitely be addressed before we ship...our goal is that you don't even notice the transition from one to the other...it should just look like another guy added on seamlessly. This is causing a lot of the feeling of "it needs more umph"...

Second biggest is the "warping" into the PRO-TAK multi-man stuff. This hasn't been tuned really so guys are just 'suction-ing' like magnets to the ballcarrier. Also when the guys add on the goal is that they drastically effect the pile's velocity and positioning and stuff...right now they just attach and that's about it. Again when the feature is actually done you should feel a lot more 'power' when these guys hit the pile.

The "endless chopping" stuff is often turned on for demo purposes...this will really not happen in the game when it ships...you'll see a guy drive forward and they'll then get pushed to fall forward or backward (or sideways or whatever) way quicker than just standing up chopping their feet.

Lastly, we really don't have barely any animation variety in there yet. We're looking to at least add quadruple the amount of stuff to keep it fresh. We've built some new tech this year that basically swaps the animation banks for each PRO-TAK set of animations after they play (moving them to the end of the list after they do), but up until basically today we haven't had the variety to swap. That will be coming very soon as well.

So anyway, I don't want to act like I don't want feedback from you guys as you see the new stuff...all of it is valuable and please keep posting...but I also wanted to let you know what we're currently working on. We definitely aren't going to be spending our whole cycle on this tech to have it not come out looking perfect. We just have to balance the needs of marketing to show stuff early even when it's not done.

- Ian

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Member Comments

# 41 icomb1ne @ 05/09/09 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	Fanboys act like if Madden or EA does well, they're going to get a piece of the pie.

Our "piece of the pie" will be getting to play a great sim style football game that will have tons of replay value which is really all we want.

That's why we want to help Ian n' Co to succeed so much.

# 42 maddenps2 @ 05/09/09 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icomb1ne


	@Moostache Backbreaker is football from the FUTURE!!! That's why the ball is glowing and they wear funky uniforms. I would know, I've been to the future and the ball definitely glows. On the other hand, the tackles in my opinion some tackles still look over the top like the ball carrier is just a ragdoll. In the future, that's not sim.

Well Know that EA owns all NFL rights, other developers have very little to work with. APF tried a realistic approach and look what happend to that game.

Gamers aren't going buy products that don't have the NFL name on them, a good example was APF.

I'd be careful how much you bash other football games because Madden might be the only NFL game you'll see for the rest of your life.

Atleast back-breaker is trying something truly next-gen with there tackling system instead of the out-dated motion-capture suction tackles found in madden.

It's nice to finally see madden trying a new tackling approach, hopefully the new tackling system actually seems like a next-gen product. Though I think Maddens new tacking system still mainly consists of pre-canned tackles.

It will see which system turns out to be more innovated and realistic overall. Even if back-breaker might go for more dramatic tackles, that doesn't mean that it's tackle system can't be more realistic than maddens. There is a difference between overall tackle realism and the type of tackles that actually occur.

And for laughing or criticizing what you have seen out of Backbreaker, consider it's a new next-gen football contender. Consider the fact that Madden has had 5 years on next gen. What in those 5 years has it shown to truly define it's tackle system and or other aspects in comparison to last gen madden and other nfl products such as Nfl2k5.

# 43 SteelerSpartan @ 05/09/09 04:59 PM

Good stuff Ian. I won't be worrying too much unless I see major problems from E3.

# 44 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	It's ******** what he posted. It's like some people here have a hate for BB. We should be neutral towards them, give em' a chance, it's their first crack at it. If we all wanted a good football game, should it matter who makes it? We should be optimistic and encourage all football games to be good so we have more choices. When fanboyism gets in the way of that, problems ensue. Fanboys act like if Madden or EA does well, they're going to get a piece of the pie.

If Madden had a glowing ball, it'd be ripped on just as quickly and probably far more harshly. There wouldn't be anybody here defending it. I've noticed a lot more people here claiming BackBreaker's **** don't stink than I have Madden. We're supposed to tear alpha build trailers played on rookie and AI tuned down to pieces, but BackBreaker's flaws are off limits? C'mon, man, we only need one standard here.

What's worse is, whether every tackle is a flying one or not, it's becoming more and more apparent with each little bit of info we get on BackBreaker that it is not the game we are looking for as sim gamers. It may well end up being ground breaking and an all around amazing game... remains to be seen... but it is not going to be the same kind of game Madden 10 is.

There are two types of sports games in any sport... your core sim games, and your diversionary games. Blitz, The Bigs, NBA Street, things along those lines are diversionary. They are what simmers play when they don't feel like thinking their way through a game and just wanna lay back and mess around. It's becoming very apparent that, while it probably wont be full-on Arcade like Blitz, BackBreaker is gonna be diversionary... it's not a pure-sim.

# 45 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by icomb1ne


	Our "piece of the pie" will be getting to play a great sim style football game that will have tons of replay value which is really all we want. That's why we want to help Ian n' Co to succeed so much.

This.

# 46 TiTaNx10xViNcE @ 05/09/09 05:10 PM

Great to hear that all of this will be addressed.

Cant wait!!

# 47 xX CASCABEL Xx @ 05/09/09 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adembroski


	If Madden had a glowing ball, it'd be ripped on just as quickly and probably far more harshly. There wouldn't be anybody here defending it. I've noticed a lot more people here claiming BackBreaker's **** don't stink than I have Madden. We're supposed to tear alpha build trailers played on rookie and AI tuned down to pieces, but BackBreaker's flaws are off limits? C'mon, man, we only need one standard here. What's worse is, whether every tackle is a flying one or not, it's becoming more and more apparent with each little bit of info we get on BackBreaker that it is not the game we are looking for as sim gamers. It may well end up being ground breaking and an all around amazing game... remains to be seen... but it is not going to be the same kind of game Madden 10 is. There are two types of sports games in any sport... your core sim games, and your diversionary games. Blitz, The Bigs, NBA Street, things along those lines are diversionary. They are what simmers play when they don't feel like thinking their way through a game and just wanna lay back and mess around. It's becoming very apparent that, while it probably wont be full-on Arcade like Blitz, BackBreaker is gonna be diversionary... it's not a pure-sim.

Agree, yet BB is the best thing since spaghetti and meat balls, and not one person has played a game as of today...

# 48 maddenps2 @ 05/09/09 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adembroski


	If Madden had a glowing ball, it'd be ripped on just as quickly and probably far more harshly. There wouldn't be anybody here defending it. I've noticed a lot more people here claiming BackBreaker's **** don't stink than I have Madden. We're supposed to tear alpha build trailers played on rookie and AI tuned down to pieces, but BackBreaker's flaws are off limits? C'mon, man, we only need one standard here.

And why do you think backbreaker has to resort to a glowing ball. Have you ever thought of the fact that They do not have an option at making a 100% realistic football game when they don't have the NFL license to back it up.

The fact is, a realistic, non-NFL licensed football games aren't going sell. Look at happened to APF, it lasted one year. Smart developers can't design a product that is going fail, so based on their restrictions, the developers at back-breaker have make product adjustments.

Atleast they have the guts and knowledge to try something innovative with the tackling system, which is a huge part of a football game.

And again, it seems you are high on madden, which isn't a bad thing.

But can you tell me what Madden has Done with it's exclusive license on the next gen systems for 5 YEARS that has you so up in arms and supporting madden?

Has madden defined what next-gen football should be to you?

Well I"m sure you'll be pleased, because backbreaker will probably fail to sell. At least backbreaker is trying to do something next-gen and or innovative with it's tackling system.

And who cares if backbreaker isn't 100% realistic, it's not like madden has been. Some of my favorite non-madden football games where ones that had a arcade theme, NFL blitz was awesome imo. Nba jam was an awesome arcade style basketball game. We will never have a chance to see those products again, and even if we do, i'm sure they will be short lived, just like APF and Blitz.

# 49 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	Why should we have one standard? BB should go through the same sh*t as Madden because.....exactly. Madden has had 5 tries, it's up to them to prove themselves. We should except the same as always. They should wow us. As for BB, we basically know nothing about it, except that it has Euphoria and it looks futuristic. It's their first crack at a football game, and they're taking chances trying to innovate the sport. We should be anything but negative about BB, they're giving us next-gen technology. Take off the blinders, man. It's basically impossible to have an negative opinion/perception of BB unless you brown-nose Madden devs on a daily basis.

The developer interaction here is one of the reasons Madden is improving. They are implementing suggestions we make. I can find a post from pre-'09 release asking for every new feature in Madden 10, I guarantee you. Operation Sports has been the Madden team's razor this year, and it's gonna show when the game drops.

But you suggest that, clearly, unlike the Madden team, the BackBreaker team is probably smarter than the average fan, and thus we should say nothing and just clap every time I new screen drops. The fact that this is their first football game doesn't seem like a good reason to automatically trust that they'll deliver... rather, precisely the opposite.

It took 2k Sports 5 years to get it right. You could see the improvement in each iteration, but there were huge game killers in 2k, 2k1, 2k2, 2k3, and 2k4. People forget that 2k5 was the first one to fully implement a momentum based locomotion system (it was in 2k4 in a very limited fashion... before that, it was all turn-on-a-dime momentumless locomotion). Madden had it in one form or another from the beginning, until some idiot who shares the name of a certain Red Sox player decided to yank it out.

Feedback and criticism do more good than bad, and Madden 10 is evidence of that. Like Madden, I want Backbreaker to be the best game it can be, for whatever type of game it is. For that reason, I'm not going to sit back and simply cheer them on. I'm going to tell them that glowing footballs are fecking stupid.

# 50 speedy9386 @ 05/09/09 05:28 PM

Ian Cummings is officially THE MAN!!!!!

# 51 speedy9386 @ 05/09/09 05:31 PM

The devs said that the glowing ball is just a tracking system on replays.

# 52 Valdarez @ 05/09/09 05:31 PM

I thought BB was going to be simulation just based off of the ultra realistic tackle styles, but the glowing red ball shows otherwise. As far as game play, we don't know what it's like yet, so we can't dissect it on any level. As far as picking it apart, if they come out and say they are going for true simulation, I'll be first in line to start pointing out flaws.

# 53 maddenps2 @ 05/09/09 05:33 PM

I'll also add that people have the right to critisize madden Look at what the Next-gen Madden Prodeuct has offered to it's fans in the last several years.

Most can see that Madden hasn't shown to be the definition of what next gen footbal should be. It's not like Madden is a rookie to next gen anymore. It's been half a decade on nextgen... That's not even the worst problem with the madden next-gen products.

The most troubling fact is that year after year, well atleast the past two, Madden has had game ruining glitches and bugs that have hurt the game-play and made people put the game down hoping for better "next-year"

# 54 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddenps2


	And why do you think backbreaker has to resort to a glowing ball. Have you ever thought of the fact that They do not have an option at making a 100% realistic football game when they don't have the NFL license to back it up.

So you're saying glowing balls are what a company must implement when without a license? I guess I don't see the connection.

Quote:


	The fact is, a realistic, non-NFL licensed football games aren't going sell. Look at happened to APF, it lasted one year. Smart developers can't design a product that is going fail, so based on their restrictions, the developers at back-breaker have make product adjustments. Atleast they have the guts and knowledge to try something innovative with the tackling system, which is a huge part of a football game. And again, it seems you are high on madden, which isn't a bad thing. But can you tell me what Madden has Done with it's exclusive license on the next gen systems for 5 YEARS that has you so up in arms and supporting madden?

What they've done to make me as supportive as I am of Madden is put the game in my hands and let me see what's changed. I support Madden because I like the game. Not '09, not '06, Madden NFL 10. Can you think of a better reason to support a game?

Quote:


	Has madden defined what next-gen football should be to you? Well I"m sure you'll be pleased, because backbreaker will probably fail to sell. At least backbreaker is trying to do something next-gen and or innovative with it's tackling system.

See, and this is just stupid. I'll be pleased because backbreaker will fail? No, I wont be pleased. I wasn't pleased when APF was scrapped, I wasn't pleased when Blitz was scrapped. I buy every halfway decent football game on the market, be it sim or otherwise. I love football. Over the past 5 years the only football games that have come out that I have not purchased were Madden 08 and Madden 07 (I bought Madden '06 for PC). At this moment, I own all of the Tecmos except the PS2 and DS versions, Madden 08 (because it was bought for me) for PC, NFL Head Coach 07 and 09, APF, NFL 2k5, and BTL2. I do not and will not own BCFE or its sequel because I will not support a blatantly racist game. Otherwise, I purchase every game worth purchasing, and I plan to add Backbreaker to my collection when it's out.

Quote:


	And who cares if backbreaker isn't 100% realistic

I do. Who else's opinion should matter to me?

Quote:


	, it's not like madden has been. Some of my favorite non-madden football games where ones that had a arcade theme, NFL blitz was awesome imo. Nba jam was an awesome arcade style basketball game. We will never have a chance to see those products again, and even if we do, i'm sure they will be short lived, just like APF and Blitz.

As I said, I like arcade stuff too. All I'm really saying as far as BackBreaker goes is that we have every right to tear it apart as much as we do Madden, and calling someone a fanboy because he thinks glowing balls are silly is ignorant and fanboyish in and of itself.

# 55 maddenps2 @ 05/09/09 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adembroski


	The developer interaction here is one of the reasons Madden is improving. Feedback and criticism do more good than bad, and Madden 10 is evidence of that. Like Madden, I want Backbreaker to be the best game it can be, for whatever type of game it is. For that reason, I'm not going to sit back and simply cheer them on. I'm going to tell them that glowing footballs are fecking stupid.

You can thank the Restrictions of a non-nfl license for some of the things you dislike in backbreaker, you know who to thank for that.

As for Madden 2010 being a better product, and your claim of evidence...I think you should wait, sit down and play Madden 2010 for a couple weeks before you state claim that. Talk is talk, interaction is good, but all that matters is implementation and the resulting product. Just because there is talk of improvement and good interaction with the developers doesn't guarantee anything.

# 56 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	BB will be sim, just on different perspective of football. They are simming how the individual players feel in the football game, whereas Madden sims how people see the game. It's not an easy concept to understand so I can see why there is so much confusion on whether BB is 'sim' or not.

Don't come up in here questioning people's intelligence, man, you are not going to last long that way. Not cool at all.

Sim is sim. Realism is realism. You can't implement an arcade style of football and call it "sim-in-a-different-way".

I know exactly what you're saying and I don't mind the idea. The perspective in-and-of-itself might be the biggest innovation BackBreaker makes if it works. It may end up being one of the most emotionally engaging football games ever made... but that doesn't make it sim.

# 57 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maddenps2


	You can thank the Restrictions of a non-nfl license for some of the things you dislike in backbreaker, you know who to thank for that. As for Madden 2010 being a better product, and your claim of evidence...I think you should wait, sit down and play Madden 2010 for a couple weeks before you state claim that. Talk is talk, interaction is good, but all that matters is implementation and the resulting product. Just because there is talk of improvement and good interaction with the developers doesn't guarantee anything.

I have played it. It doesn't take a couple weeks to see the improvement. A couple of weeks will reveal its flaws, yes, but we're talking about Madden here... it's going to take some damn big flaws for this game to not be light years ahead of it's predecessor.

# 58 maddenps2 @ 05/09/09 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adembroski


	So you're saying glowing balls are what a company must implement when without a license? I guess I don't see the connection. What they've done to make me as supportive as I am of Madden is put the game in my hands and let me see what's changed. I support Madden because I like the game. Not '09, not '06, Madden NFL 10. Can you think of a better reason to support a game? See, and this is just stupid. I'll be pleased because backbreaker will fail? No, I wont be pleased. I wasn't pleased when APF was scrapped, I wasn't pleased when Blitz was scrapped. I buy every halfway decent football game on the market, be it sim or otherwise. I love football. Over the past 5 years the only football games that have come out that I have not purchased were Madden 08 and Madden 07 (I bought Madden '06 for PC). At this moment, I own all of the Tecmos except the PS2 and DS versions, Madden 08 (because it was bought for me) for PC, NFL Head Coach 07 and 09, APF, NFL 2k5, and BTL2. I do not and will not own BCFE or its sequel because I will not support a blatantly racist game. Otherwise, I purchase every game worth purchasing, and I plan to add Backbreaker to my collection when it's out. I do. Who else's opinion should matter to me? As I said, I like arcade stuff too. All I'm really saying as far as BackBreaker goes is that we have every right to tear it apart as much as we do Madden, and calling someone a fanboy because he thinks glowing balls are silly is ignorant and fanboyish in and of itself.

I disagree, you have to consider that madden is a 5 next-gen product, it deserves more criticism than back breaker.

If I took your unrealistic approach then I could just compare NFL2k5 to the Madden 2001, without even considering the fact that one has had 5 years to polish it's product.

# 59 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	BB should receive the benefit of the doubt, not Madden. If you can give both games that, more power to you, if you do it the other way around, all I gotta say is "how does it taste?"

I haven't given either team the benefit of the doubt. I have played Madden, so I know it's quality. Even still, I criticize it now. There are things missing from the game that I don't feel should be missing. There are ways the game operates that I don't like. Unfortunately my hands are tied on publicly criticizing because a lot of the things that I have criticized are not public yet. So no, you don't see me talk about it in public, but Ian's got a novel's worth of feedback from me and the other CD guys in word documents on his workstation.

Is it not enough to say I'm 90% likely to buy BB, regardless if it's sim or not? The point behind me saying it's not sim isn't that that's necessarily a bad thing, but that it doesn't belong in a conversation with Madden. It's not the same thing. Madden 09? Yes, because Madden 09 wasn't even attempting to be sim. Madden 10 is a different beast altogether, and BB is not in that category. It's not a 'lesser' game, but a different one.

And no, they do not have the right not to be criticized. Glowing balls are lame. Period.

# 60 adembroski @ 05/09/09 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hmoob


	You're confused. Realism is different from a player's perspective than a fan-in-the-stand's perspective. The player sees hits right in his face, and fast movements all round him, noise everywhere. And that's exactly what BB has shown so far. So it is SIM-ulation, from the players' perspective. What Madden tries to achieve is SIM-ulation from a coach or a fan's perspective, seeing the whole field, knowing where everyone is, etc. If you really did understand this concept, there should be no concern at all in that aspect. Yet I see quite the opposite on this forum.

No... in the vernacular of this forum, "SIM" refers to realism. Not perception. You can have realism no matter where you put the camera or how you focus the audio. Flying tackles and glowing balls are still arcade. If Madden had it, no matter how deep the playbooks or where the camera was, it would be arcade. If BackBreaker was the most realistic depiction of football in history and put the cameras low on the field and blew up the player-perspective audio, it'd be sim.

Backbreaker is not a sim. I'm not saying it's necessarily arcade... it may very well be something new, all its own, and thats never a bad thing. I think this is where you are getting confused; I don't like the glowing ball or the flying tackles, but I never once said I had any problem with Backbreaker or hoped it would fail or even thought it would. I can't wait to get my hands on it, actually, and it may very well end up being extremely addictive.

But they have earned nothing. They deserve nothing. When I have a game in my hands that makes me pine for it while I'm at work, I'll praise 'em. Not before. Madden 10 has already done that for me.

PS: I'm going to kindly ask you a second time to stop talking down to me. I'm not 12.

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