jdareal21's Blog
Well maybe not bashing, see I do, in fact, love watching Lebron play. But don't make excuses for Lebron James, there's none that would suffice anyway. He is supremely talented, the most gifted athlete the NBA's ever seen. But by no means is he the best player in the game....not yet.
Lebron to me is the equivalent of Peyton Manning in basketball shorts. Two athletes who can produce astronomical stats that tend to lead the media & fans alike to crown them among the greatest of all times. Hold on...not so fast
.First of all, let's stop with the Jordan-Lebron comparisons, it's a whole new era, and regardless of how clouded your memory may be, Michael Jordan, like Kobe Bryant as well, would struggle against this Celtic defense, and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise. But let's cut to the chase and get down to business.
- No, what Lebron did in Game 5 is not the same as what Kobe did in Game 7 against the Suns in 2006. Kobe was coming off of being ridiculed by his coach, his team & the media, for shooting too much in an overtime loss in Game 6. A game in which he scored 50 pts. For someone who's been criticized as a me-first, selfish player his whole career, for someone who played out of his mind (alongside Smush & Kwame no less) to even force a Game 7, his sensitivity to the backlash, while not condoned, is at least understandable.
On the other hand, no one on Earth has ever called Lebron selfish, in fact, it's his ability to "make his team better" that everyone cites as the sole reason he's supposedly the best in the game. Actually, everyone encouraged Lebron to shoot more, to be more aggressive, after his lackluster Game 4 display. And he proceeded to sleepwalk through the whole entire game. Kobe & the Lakers against the Suns in '06 weren't expected to win anything, let alone the title. Lebron and these Cavaliers had the best record, two years straight. You don't do that if your team is complete garbage, like most people seem to believe now.
- No, Don't talk to me about stats either. We need to remember that sometimes, stats can be misleading. Lebron, like Peyton Manning, dominates his offense in a way that allows for huge numbers, but not necessarily postseason stability. Also, Kobe came in the league having to work himself into the rotation, and then he had to work with Shaq, while Lebron, like Jordan before him, came into the league with free reign over abysmal teams. They were allowed to jack up as many shots as they wanted, and earn the accolades and stats that go with it. If Kobe was given that opportunity, he may not have 4 rings, but he would sure as hell be statistically far superior to what he is now, which still isn't too shabby.
The Cavs offense, regardless of Mike Brown's ineffectiveness, revolves around Lebron isolating at the top of the key looking to create. This allows him to dish out of traffic to a team full of spot up shooters, thus, creating big assist numbers. Is that truly making his teammates better? I don't know, they made it to the NBA because of their shooting ability, so I think at best, he creates an environment for them to utilize that skill. There's no such thing as "making someone better" at a sport. Passing the ball to someone who can't do anything with it won't make them any better, you can throw an alley-oop to someone in a wheelchair to test this statement if you wish.
At 6'9, 250 lbs (depending on lunch) Lebron should be pulling down 8+ rebounds a game, after all, he is a forward, and he's in position around the paint to do so. Likewise, Rajon Rondo doing that is much more impressive, standing at 6'0 and weighing little over 175 lbs, but nobody is rushing to call him the best in the game. You place Lebron in a true offense, like the triangle, that is predicated on everyone touching the ball and making decisions, and his assists go way down. Put the ball in Kobe's hands, isolate him at the top of the key every possession, and tell him to create, and I guarantee you his assists go up. Either that or he scores 81 pts.
-Yes, let's talk about actual Basketball skills. Substance, not style. Actual perimeter defense, not running up and blocking shots from players you let get by you in the first place. Looking at this series, it's painfully obvious that, for someone of Lebron's stature, he is severely lacking in two key areas. His mid-range game, and his post up game. It's inexcusable that someone that size has yet to develop low post moves. It's almost as criminal as Dwight Howard's "big man" skill set. Everything with Lebron is either a long three, for which he has shown time and again his inconsistency, or drives to the basket, which will diminish rapidly as soon as his physical gifts give way. Pull up any footage you can find of Lebron guarding Kobe, and you'll witness the strange difference. Kobe Bryant can post Lebron James up, and has success doing it. His footwork, shooting ability and anticipation is why he's able to do that to someone bigger, stronger, and faster, skills that Lebron better hone if he ever hopes to win when it matters.
To put it plainly, Lebron is a physical specimen who has yet to fully develop the necessary skills to elevate to the next level. It's not the team, or the coach, that stopped Lebron from beating the Celts. It was his game. Yeah I'm bias, but the utter disrespect to Kobe Bryant that he's faced his whole career is insane. Sure he played with Shaq, and fought off the Pacers on a sprained ankle in the Finals while Shaq was on the bench fouled out in a pivotal game. Yeah, he played with Shaq, and also happened to average 30 points as the "secondary" option during that second title run. Yup, he played with Shaq, and was also the sole reason Shaq and company weren't swept against the Pistons in the Finals. You want to continue to downgrade him for sacrificing his game to win titles with Shaq, fine, get back to me after he finishes another 3-peat...
# 32
prototype561 @ May 18
@J, Where do I start
First and foremost they will never be another MJ. Not Lebron nor Kobe.
Kobe is a great player, noone will deny that, he has been one of the best players in the league for a while now. His 1 MVP award doesnt do him justice he should have at least have 3 MVP's or more by now. He has that competive edge that tenacity, sorta like pitbull that senses blood, going in for the kill. MJ had it, and few others did, but not many.
Lebron is whole other beast. This guy could literally play every position on the floor, sure his not the best on ball defender but he makes for it. He is and should be dominating. His team is a good team, but there not great nor clutch. If look at the the stats, when he averaged 29 or better they won, if he scored below that there was a good possibility that his team would lose. Without him that team would be hard pressed for a 8th seed in playoffs. We have all seen Kobe go for less than 20 and Lakers still win by a considerable amount. Kobe is a better in the clutch no doubt, he is the best in league. But Kobe never has done it by himself. He had shaq, a dominant big man in his prime, which a recipe for NBA championships. Look at the Lakers and Celtics, when they won most of their championships they had dominate big men, its no secret, dominant big men win championships. Russel, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, need i go on. This is would made MJ so special, that a guard could dominate the way he did and win championships. His big man was Longley...wtf. Even now the lakers with a not so deep team has Gasol(allstar), Bynum(could be an allstar if he stayed healthy long enough), Artest(former allstar), Odom(former allster). Ok there not deep but their starting 5 is damn good. The only other team that has roster that rivals that is the Celtics.
I like Kobe and Lebron, neither one is better than the other, nor is either one as good as MJ. To say Kobe has a better skill set the MJ is ludacris, if that was the case Kobe would have one a championship w/out Gasol/Bynum or Sharq.
First and foremost they will never be another MJ. Not Lebron nor Kobe.
Kobe is a great player, noone will deny that, he has been one of the best players in the league for a while now. His 1 MVP award doesnt do him justice he should have at least have 3 MVP's or more by now. He has that competive edge that tenacity, sorta like pitbull that senses blood, going in for the kill. MJ had it, and few others did, but not many.
Lebron is whole other beast. This guy could literally play every position on the floor, sure his not the best on ball defender but he makes for it. He is and should be dominating. His team is a good team, but there not great nor clutch. If look at the the stats, when he averaged 29 or better they won, if he scored below that there was a good possibility that his team would lose. Without him that team would be hard pressed for a 8th seed in playoffs. We have all seen Kobe go for less than 20 and Lakers still win by a considerable amount. Kobe is a better in the clutch no doubt, he is the best in league. But Kobe never has done it by himself. He had shaq, a dominant big man in his prime, which a recipe for NBA championships. Look at the Lakers and Celtics, when they won most of their championships they had dominate big men, its no secret, dominant big men win championships. Russel, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, need i go on. This is would made MJ so special, that a guard could dominate the way he did and win championships. His big man was Longley...wtf. Even now the lakers with a not so deep team has Gasol(allstar), Bynum(could be an allstar if he stayed healthy long enough), Artest(former allstar), Odom(former allster). Ok there not deep but their starting 5 is damn good. The only other team that has roster that rivals that is the Celtics.
I like Kobe and Lebron, neither one is better than the other, nor is either one as good as MJ. To say Kobe has a better skill set the MJ is ludacris, if that was the case Kobe would have one a championship w/out Gasol/Bynum or Sharq.
# 33
bizmax @ May 18
Man I see why you are constantly debating this topic. I believe Kobe is the best but your argument against LeBron make no sense. The Peyton comparison lost me. All Peyton has done was win tough playoff games, lose tough playoff games, and eventually win a Ring. Sounds normal to me.
When Kobe did not have Pau, Lamar, and the crew he did not win either.
Kobe is better because he is a killer, has all the shooting tools/range, plays great def, can pass, and the biggest reason for me is his low post game and how him in the post allows more scoring opportunities for his team and cause the def to collapse. I said last year until James develops a low post game it is a waste of size (see Dwight Howard)
Kobe is the best has the game, the rings, the heart, and yes the team to prove it.
James needs to tighten up on his game, heart, and get some star talent and maybe he can be considered the best after Kobe retires or gets older.
Durant is the beast James has to worry about as far as being the best.
When Kobe did not have Pau, Lamar, and the crew he did not win either.
Kobe is better because he is a killer, has all the shooting tools/range, plays great def, can pass, and the biggest reason for me is his low post game and how him in the post allows more scoring opportunities for his team and cause the def to collapse. I said last year until James develops a low post game it is a waste of size (see Dwight Howard)
Kobe is the best has the game, the rings, the heart, and yes the team to prove it.
James needs to tighten up on his game, heart, and get some star talent and maybe he can be considered the best after Kobe retires or gets older.
Durant is the beast James has to worry about as far as being the best.
# 34
jdareal21 @ May 18
Before continuing my rebuttals, I want to reiterate once again, that this blog was initally about Kobe being still better than Lebron James despite what alot of fans and media seem to say. I think it speaks to Kobe's greatness that any debate involving his ability inevitably leads to Michael Jordan, who I feel is the only one you can possibly debate with. But I digress....
@Prototype
Everything your saying I've been responding to already. The fact is, Jordan never did it by himself either, he was playing with the most complete guy in the league after himself in Scottie Pippen. Pau Gasol thrives in this system, playing alongside Kobe, not once do people consider the pressure a premier perimeter threat takes off a big man. And Shaq has never played one season his entire career without a Superstar. And they weren't just Superstars, they were arguably the best players in the league. If Joe Montana is allowed to be great playing with Jerry Rice, and vice versa, if Larry Bird can play with two hall of famers, just like Magic Johnson, then I don't see how Shaq is a stain on Kobe's resume. Scottie Pippen wasn't just some guy holding the gatorade.
@bizmax, the comparison between Lebron & Peyton is proper. Peyton is someone who the media elevated to almost god like status because of his regular season accomplishments, only for him to crumble in the postseason time and again. And the year he won his ring was also statistically his worst year in the postseason as a premier player. The Colts won in spite of him, not because of him. Even after all that, they were ready to crown him the greatest Quarterback ever if he had won this most recent Superbowl, and once again, he threw the game away when it mattered most. They compare him to the greats, and he isn't even on the level of Tom Brady yet, much less Joe Montana or John Elway. Likewise, people are quick to put Lebron in that "Jordan" discussion, and he's nowhere close to Kobe Bryant, in any facet.
@Prototype
Everything your saying I've been responding to already. The fact is, Jordan never did it by himself either, he was playing with the most complete guy in the league after himself in Scottie Pippen. Pau Gasol thrives in this system, playing alongside Kobe, not once do people consider the pressure a premier perimeter threat takes off a big man. And Shaq has never played one season his entire career without a Superstar. And they weren't just Superstars, they were arguably the best players in the league. If Joe Montana is allowed to be great playing with Jerry Rice, and vice versa, if Larry Bird can play with two hall of famers, just like Magic Johnson, then I don't see how Shaq is a stain on Kobe's resume. Scottie Pippen wasn't just some guy holding the gatorade.
@bizmax, the comparison between Lebron & Peyton is proper. Peyton is someone who the media elevated to almost god like status because of his regular season accomplishments, only for him to crumble in the postseason time and again. And the year he won his ring was also statistically his worst year in the postseason as a premier player. The Colts won in spite of him, not because of him. Even after all that, they were ready to crown him the greatest Quarterback ever if he had won this most recent Superbowl, and once again, he threw the game away when it mattered most. They compare him to the greats, and he isn't even on the level of Tom Brady yet, much less Joe Montana or John Elway. Likewise, people are quick to put Lebron in that "Jordan" discussion, and he's nowhere close to Kobe Bryant, in any facet.
# 35
jdareal21 @ May 18
@ marq
We can do this all day, everyday, but the fact is you have to honestly answer just one question for me.
Do you really feel, in your heart of hearts, that Kobe Bryant would have trouble with any of the competition Jordan faced. If you really think that, then our back and forth is pretty mute.
Kobe is a better shooter from anywhere on the floor, that's just point blank. The stats are what they are, and when Kobe transitions to the low post, he shoots the same %, its been proven. All those "tough" defenses you mention Jordan facing, were only tough because he was constantly driving to the basket 3/4's of his career. Those Bad Boy Pistons knew in order for Jordan to score consistently was for him to penetrate, he used his athleticism just like Lebron does now, which is what he should have done. That being said, it also opened the door for all types of punishment he didn't have to take if he could shoot from the outside at that point in his career. When he came back for the second 3-peat, he recognized he couldn't do that anymore, changed his game, became better from outside, and IMO, became the best version of himself. And that version still wasn't the midrange or long range threat Kobe is. Being physical on Kobe from the top of the key only results in shooting fouls, he wouldn't need to be in the paint to allow any of those '90s defenses to touch him.
You also brought up the inferior teams the Lakers played in those Finals, which is a good point, but it also undermines the gauntlet the Western Conference was during that time. The Kings, The Spurs, & The Blazers were the best teams in the league, along with the Lakers. They had to go through any combination of them almost every year. Not terribly easy.
I just feel like people act as though the book on Kobe is finished already. He's still the best, and he has the opportunity, barring any catastrophic injuries, to build his legacy to the point where you people have to acknowledge him as right on that level. He can't revolutionize the game, that takes anomalies to do, something Jordan was for his time, but what Kobe did do, is take the greatest player of the previous era, modeled his game after that, and improved upon it. I'll say it again, his shot from anywhere on the court is better, his dribble is better, his low post is rapidly becoming better, his footwork is absolutely better, and that shouldn't be up for debate, if nothing else. His defense is on par, his perimeter defense ditto, there's nothing with a basketball that Kobe Bryant can't do that Michael Jordan can, if so, please tell me what is it?!! This is what I'm talking about, basketball skill. Not better leader (although he's closing in), not better endorsements, not better stats because those are skewed anyway, Kobe didn't play who MJ played and vice versa. Their careers started off totally different. Kobe's first couple years he had to work into the rotation, then he sacrificed stats to win. This isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actual basketball ability on the floor. And if your honest, you know Kobe has the widest arsenal of moves anybody has ever utilized. Quite simply, Jordan didn't need them to dominate his era, Kobe does
We can do this all day, everyday, but the fact is you have to honestly answer just one question for me.
Do you really feel, in your heart of hearts, that Kobe Bryant would have trouble with any of the competition Jordan faced. If you really think that, then our back and forth is pretty mute.
Kobe is a better shooter from anywhere on the floor, that's just point blank. The stats are what they are, and when Kobe transitions to the low post, he shoots the same %, its been proven. All those "tough" defenses you mention Jordan facing, were only tough because he was constantly driving to the basket 3/4's of his career. Those Bad Boy Pistons knew in order for Jordan to score consistently was for him to penetrate, he used his athleticism just like Lebron does now, which is what he should have done. That being said, it also opened the door for all types of punishment he didn't have to take if he could shoot from the outside at that point in his career. When he came back for the second 3-peat, he recognized he couldn't do that anymore, changed his game, became better from outside, and IMO, became the best version of himself. And that version still wasn't the midrange or long range threat Kobe is. Being physical on Kobe from the top of the key only results in shooting fouls, he wouldn't need to be in the paint to allow any of those '90s defenses to touch him.
You also brought up the inferior teams the Lakers played in those Finals, which is a good point, but it also undermines the gauntlet the Western Conference was during that time. The Kings, The Spurs, & The Blazers were the best teams in the league, along with the Lakers. They had to go through any combination of them almost every year. Not terribly easy.
I just feel like people act as though the book on Kobe is finished already. He's still the best, and he has the opportunity, barring any catastrophic injuries, to build his legacy to the point where you people have to acknowledge him as right on that level. He can't revolutionize the game, that takes anomalies to do, something Jordan was for his time, but what Kobe did do, is take the greatest player of the previous era, modeled his game after that, and improved upon it. I'll say it again, his shot from anywhere on the court is better, his dribble is better, his low post is rapidly becoming better, his footwork is absolutely better, and that shouldn't be up for debate, if nothing else. His defense is on par, his perimeter defense ditto, there's nothing with a basketball that Kobe Bryant can't do that Michael Jordan can, if so, please tell me what is it?!! This is what I'm talking about, basketball skill. Not better leader (although he's closing in), not better endorsements, not better stats because those are skewed anyway, Kobe didn't play who MJ played and vice versa. Their careers started off totally different. Kobe's first couple years he had to work into the rotation, then he sacrificed stats to win. This isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actual basketball ability on the floor. And if your honest, you know Kobe has the widest arsenal of moves anybody has ever utilized. Quite simply, Jordan didn't need them to dominate his era, Kobe does
# 36
marq @ May 18
@jda
No, Kobe would not have "trouble" with the players MJ faced, nor would LeBron, Dwade, etc. Nor would Jordan have any trouble in this league, neither would Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon, Drexler, 'Nique, Bird, Magic, etc.
While LA had a tough road to their titles, Chicago played and defeated 5 60 win teams during their second 3-peat, and 2 60 win teams during their 1st three peat, and usually in back-to-back series.
Again, how are you quantifying these "skills?" Are there drills performed by both Kobe and MJ that shows Kobe is clearly better? How are you measuring ability? It's not like comparing Russel to Hakeem. Both players played in the same era with differing rules. Kobe exploded to his career highs in points AFTER handchecking was outlawed, while MJ dominated despite physical D. Kobe's not as proficient offensively because of his shooting percentages. Phil Jackson even said that. He can't play D as well and as consistently as MJ. Tex Winter even said that. MJ was a killer on both ends of the floor. Throughout his career, there were plenty of times in which he took out the opposing teams star while dominating the game offensively. Kobe hasn't done it, and it hasn't been consistent. And he's not closing in on MJ's leadership. Great leaders don't sacrifice the team to get their way, great leaders don't demand trades, great leaders don't air their dirty laundry in public. Kobe has done all of those things, including belittling teammates on the court.
BTW, while Kobe is a great player, as many have stated, it is not the complete and utter domination of his era as MJ dominated his. People can make strong arguments about LeBron, DWade, Duncan, Shaq, etc. Noone is close to MJ during his time, and that time includes the majority of the greatest players this league has ever seen.
No, Kobe would not have "trouble" with the players MJ faced, nor would LeBron, Dwade, etc. Nor would Jordan have any trouble in this league, neither would Barkley, Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwon, Drexler, 'Nique, Bird, Magic, etc.
While LA had a tough road to their titles, Chicago played and defeated 5 60 win teams during their second 3-peat, and 2 60 win teams during their 1st three peat, and usually in back-to-back series.
Again, how are you quantifying these "skills?" Are there drills performed by both Kobe and MJ that shows Kobe is clearly better? How are you measuring ability? It's not like comparing Russel to Hakeem. Both players played in the same era with differing rules. Kobe exploded to his career highs in points AFTER handchecking was outlawed, while MJ dominated despite physical D. Kobe's not as proficient offensively because of his shooting percentages. Phil Jackson even said that. He can't play D as well and as consistently as MJ. Tex Winter even said that. MJ was a killer on both ends of the floor. Throughout his career, there were plenty of times in which he took out the opposing teams star while dominating the game offensively. Kobe hasn't done it, and it hasn't been consistent. And he's not closing in on MJ's leadership. Great leaders don't sacrifice the team to get their way, great leaders don't demand trades, great leaders don't air their dirty laundry in public. Kobe has done all of those things, including belittling teammates on the court.
BTW, while Kobe is a great player, as many have stated, it is not the complete and utter domination of his era as MJ dominated his. People can make strong arguments about LeBron, DWade, Duncan, Shaq, etc. Noone is close to MJ during his time, and that time includes the majority of the greatest players this league has ever seen.
# 37
jdareal21 @ May 18
@Marq
Are you serious? Did you not see Kobe demand to guard Russell Westbrook who was torching Derek Fisher, and completely change the Thunder series? Did you not see him guard Carmelo Anthony last Conference Finals, while still averaging almost 40? Have you never seen a Cavs/Lakers game, he guards Lebron routinely, actually that's how he broke his finger in the first place last season. D-Wade too, Durant too, Iverson back in his day, T-Mac when he was special, Vince Carter, any great player that's played in this era, Kobe guards them, I can't believe you would insinuate otherwise!
I'm quantifying these skills by looking at the footage, plain and simple. Jordan played in the post because outside he wasn't as good. Kobe not only holds the records for most 3's, most in a quarter, things of that nature, but it's also plain to see. Just watch any great Jordan game and see how he scored, then watch Kobe and how he scores, he's always been more perimeter oriented. And Phil Jackson has also gone on record saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan. I'm at work right now, but when I get home later tonight I'll make sure to provide the link. How can you think handchecking would make a difference to a jumpshooter? It doesn't, and besides that, Kobe welcomes and loves physical play, it's the reason he and Artest became friends years before Artest played for the Lakers. In fact, Ron Artest used to workout with Kobe in the offseason simply because he's the only player who never backed down to him when he was at his best defensively. This is a guy playing through broken fingers on his shooting hand, back spasms, having his knee drained, and sprained ankles and you think he'd be worried about handchecking? Gimme a break.
The reason why Kobe is a better defender in my book is because he's shut down greater athletes, period. Lebron James, Durant, Wade, players like this didn't exist for anybody to know what Jordan would do, they all spawned from Jordan, and they're physically superior to anybody walking around the '90's, this really isn't even debatable, just look at the games.
And a great leader does demand trades when the front office lies to him just to keep him. They weren't trying to make moves, and Kobe wasn't trying to waste his prime years on sub par teams. Jordan is the same guy who's getting into fistfights with his teammates on a routine basis, and this guy is more of a team player? That's not belittling them? The same guy who put down Bill Cartwright? Yeah, helluva guy that Mike.
And BTW, saying Kobe is better skilled doesn't diminish Jordan in any way, people get so bent out of shape like it's a knock against him. If Lebron gets his game in order, he got the physical gifts to be better than both of them, I wouldn't dispute it if it happens. Ali wasn't as skilled as Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard, doesn't take away from who he was one bit.
Are you serious? Did you not see Kobe demand to guard Russell Westbrook who was torching Derek Fisher, and completely change the Thunder series? Did you not see him guard Carmelo Anthony last Conference Finals, while still averaging almost 40? Have you never seen a Cavs/Lakers game, he guards Lebron routinely, actually that's how he broke his finger in the first place last season. D-Wade too, Durant too, Iverson back in his day, T-Mac when he was special, Vince Carter, any great player that's played in this era, Kobe guards them, I can't believe you would insinuate otherwise!
I'm quantifying these skills by looking at the footage, plain and simple. Jordan played in the post because outside he wasn't as good. Kobe not only holds the records for most 3's, most in a quarter, things of that nature, but it's also plain to see. Just watch any great Jordan game and see how he scored, then watch Kobe and how he scores, he's always been more perimeter oriented. And Phil Jackson has also gone on record saying Kobe is more skilled than Jordan. I'm at work right now, but when I get home later tonight I'll make sure to provide the link. How can you think handchecking would make a difference to a jumpshooter? It doesn't, and besides that, Kobe welcomes and loves physical play, it's the reason he and Artest became friends years before Artest played for the Lakers. In fact, Ron Artest used to workout with Kobe in the offseason simply because he's the only player who never backed down to him when he was at his best defensively. This is a guy playing through broken fingers on his shooting hand, back spasms, having his knee drained, and sprained ankles and you think he'd be worried about handchecking? Gimme a break.
The reason why Kobe is a better defender in my book is because he's shut down greater athletes, period. Lebron James, Durant, Wade, players like this didn't exist for anybody to know what Jordan would do, they all spawned from Jordan, and they're physically superior to anybody walking around the '90's, this really isn't even debatable, just look at the games.
And a great leader does demand trades when the front office lies to him just to keep him. They weren't trying to make moves, and Kobe wasn't trying to waste his prime years on sub par teams. Jordan is the same guy who's getting into fistfights with his teammates on a routine basis, and this guy is more of a team player? That's not belittling them? The same guy who put down Bill Cartwright? Yeah, helluva guy that Mike.
And BTW, saying Kobe is better skilled doesn't diminish Jordan in any way, people get so bent out of shape like it's a knock against him. If Lebron gets his game in order, he got the physical gifts to be better than both of them, I wouldn't dispute it if it happens. Ali wasn't as skilled as Sugar Ray Robinson or Leonard, doesn't take away from who he was one bit.
# 38
jmb10215 @ May 18
MJ only been out the league about 12 years ago so i dont know how players can become physically superior in only a decade which you claim for why kobe has to guard better players than MJ did.
# 40
jdareal21 @ May 18
@jmb
Jordan entered the league in the mid-80's, and while he played against some of the newer players in his last couple of years with the Bulls and the Wizards, his true "era" was 85-96, the players that were in their prime during this time were his peers. To even suggest that the same type of athletes were playing then that are playing now is insane, at best. Put it this way, Jordan was "Air" Jordan because of his ability to play above the rim like noone had before him. Now, almost every team has somebody who plays that way, which is why it isn't so special anymore in the eyes of fans.
There was not one, not one, player in Jordan's era the size and ability of Lebron, Durant or Carmelo. There was only two or three with the athletic ability of Jordan himself, and one of them was Pippen, the other was Dominique, and Clyde Drexler for a portion of his career, that's about it. Kobe, during the course of his career, has dealt with Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Durant, and these are just the athletic superstars off the top of my head. And at some point, almost everyone of these guys was supposedly better than Kobe. Half this list has faded into obscurity while Kobe's still here doin' work, but back then nobody was trying to hear it.
And While Wade is a tremendous player, who I feel is better than Lebron himself at this stage, he's nowhere close to Kobe's level of skill either. Even at the Olympics, when Wade was trying to prove he was still a premier player, when the game was on the line for the gold, Kobe Bryant was the only option for that big shot. And until somebody else is that option, it's case closed.
Jordan entered the league in the mid-80's, and while he played against some of the newer players in his last couple of years with the Bulls and the Wizards, his true "era" was 85-96, the players that were in their prime during this time were his peers. To even suggest that the same type of athletes were playing then that are playing now is insane, at best. Put it this way, Jordan was "Air" Jordan because of his ability to play above the rim like noone had before him. Now, almost every team has somebody who plays that way, which is why it isn't so special anymore in the eyes of fans.
There was not one, not one, player in Jordan's era the size and ability of Lebron, Durant or Carmelo. There was only two or three with the athletic ability of Jordan himself, and one of them was Pippen, the other was Dominique, and Clyde Drexler for a portion of his career, that's about it. Kobe, during the course of his career, has dealt with Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Vince Carter, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Ray Allen, Kevin Durant, and these are just the athletic superstars off the top of my head. And at some point, almost everyone of these guys was supposedly better than Kobe. Half this list has faded into obscurity while Kobe's still here doin' work, but back then nobody was trying to hear it.
And While Wade is a tremendous player, who I feel is better than Lebron himself at this stage, he's nowhere close to Kobe's level of skill either. Even at the Olympics, when Wade was trying to prove he was still a premier player, when the game was on the line for the gold, Kobe Bryant was the only option for that big shot. And until somebody else is that option, it's case closed.
# 41
marq @ May 18
@Jda
This is ridiculous. Penny, and Hill were in their uninjured primes when Jordan was on his 2nd three peat. Ray Allen, AI, and Kobe all played against MJ. I think you're embellishing a bit. Kobe doesn't guard the best player on the best team for THE ENTIRE GAME. Spurts here and there, but they don't put him on Pierce, LeBron, Durant...That's why Artest is there/Eddie Jones and Rick Fox before them, Ariza last year. It's a myth. He did not guard Melo as his priority matchup, and since when is Westbrook better than Durant? Besides, anyone remember when he declined to guard Bibby in '02 when Bibby was killing Fisher? Anyone remember Penny in Pheonix giving Kobe work in round 2? Ray Allen ALWAYS plays well against Kobe, including the Finals 2 years ago where HE had a strong case for Finals MVP. Your arguments are just circular. You always mention the same three players: LeBron, Durant, Melo...neither of which matches up with Kobe when they play. LAst I checked they were all SF while Kobe starts at Guard. Watch tomorrow. Kobe won't check JRich. HE didn't last night.
Again, with the exception of the few players you mention, Jordan played these guys at 40 and STILL PRODUCED. And the lack of handchecking is a HUGE development. How do you think Nash has 2 MVPs? You can't touch a player on the perimeter, giving them an advantage. That helps either a jump shooter or a slasher. Can you imagine Reggie Miller or Bird being able to pop out and around screens without being held?! MAJOR ADVANTAGE. I don't know how you can claim to study tape on supposed "skills" and not realize this. And answer this, how is it that Wade has produced better defensively than Kobe? He gets more steals and blocks per game, why is that? They play in the same era, Wade is smaller, why is that? It also doesn't hurt to play with 7 footers who can erase any mistakes (Shaq, Gasol, Bynum). Hell, when Kobe had the same kind of teams that Tmac was saddled with in Orlando (post Shaq LA), he produced similar results (either missing playoffs or ousted in 1st round).
Listen, Kobe is great, he's clutch, but he's benefited from circumstance as well, can't be denied. He actually benefited immensely forcing the trade to LA and with Shaq. Gave him time to develop.
And again, Jordan kept all of that behind closed doors which was the point of my statement. I don't know any player personally, could care less about their private lives, but I know it's best to keep team issues behind closed doors, not in interviews and on the court in plain view. This has been talked about ad nausem with Kobe...
This is ridiculous. Penny, and Hill were in their uninjured primes when Jordan was on his 2nd three peat. Ray Allen, AI, and Kobe all played against MJ. I think you're embellishing a bit. Kobe doesn't guard the best player on the best team for THE ENTIRE GAME. Spurts here and there, but they don't put him on Pierce, LeBron, Durant...That's why Artest is there/Eddie Jones and Rick Fox before them, Ariza last year. It's a myth. He did not guard Melo as his priority matchup, and since when is Westbrook better than Durant? Besides, anyone remember when he declined to guard Bibby in '02 when Bibby was killing Fisher? Anyone remember Penny in Pheonix giving Kobe work in round 2? Ray Allen ALWAYS plays well against Kobe, including the Finals 2 years ago where HE had a strong case for Finals MVP. Your arguments are just circular. You always mention the same three players: LeBron, Durant, Melo...neither of which matches up with Kobe when they play. LAst I checked they were all SF while Kobe starts at Guard. Watch tomorrow. Kobe won't check JRich. HE didn't last night.
Again, with the exception of the few players you mention, Jordan played these guys at 40 and STILL PRODUCED. And the lack of handchecking is a HUGE development. How do you think Nash has 2 MVPs? You can't touch a player on the perimeter, giving them an advantage. That helps either a jump shooter or a slasher. Can you imagine Reggie Miller or Bird being able to pop out and around screens without being held?! MAJOR ADVANTAGE. I don't know how you can claim to study tape on supposed "skills" and not realize this. And answer this, how is it that Wade has produced better defensively than Kobe? He gets more steals and blocks per game, why is that? They play in the same era, Wade is smaller, why is that? It also doesn't hurt to play with 7 footers who can erase any mistakes (Shaq, Gasol, Bynum). Hell, when Kobe had the same kind of teams that Tmac was saddled with in Orlando (post Shaq LA), he produced similar results (either missing playoffs or ousted in 1st round).
Listen, Kobe is great, he's clutch, but he's benefited from circumstance as well, can't be denied. He actually benefited immensely forcing the trade to LA and with Shaq. Gave him time to develop.
And again, Jordan kept all of that behind closed doors which was the point of my statement. I don't know any player personally, could care less about their private lives, but I know it's best to keep team issues behind closed doors, not in interviews and on the court in plain view. This has been talked about ad nausem with Kobe...
# 42
jdareal21 @ May 18
Yeah Penny had plenty of moments against Jordan too, but I guess it was his 45 season so it doesn't count. Grant Hill held his own too, what exactly is your point, when has Jordan ever shut down any of these guys, including Kobe? And Kobe guards these players when it MATTERS, either when they get hot, or when it's in the clutch. And your right, most of these guys ARE FORWARDS, AND KOBE GUARDS THEM!! And they guard him, so what are you saying, your almost making my case for me. When has Jordan ever had to guard someone 3-4 inches bigger and/or 24-30 lbs bigger? He never had to, know why, because those type of players didn't exist, and if they did, they sure as hell weren't athletic enough to be threats on the perimeter. Artest just got here, and mind you, he was guarding Kobe during his best defensive years, and couldn't do anything with him, and yes, he's a forward too, and bigger too. Eddie Jones wasn't even a real factor on the Lakers teams that were competitive, once Kobe became good, he was obsolete and off the team before they won their first championship so what are you saying? And nobody is saying Westbrook is better than Durant, but he sure as heck is a lot faster than anybody Jordan ever seen, and Kobe wound up having to guard him & Durant multiple times in the same game during the whole series, enough with the nonsense!
And who exactly was Jordan "producing" against during these fantastic Wizard years you keep referring to? Who was he dominating? All these players I mentioned barely checked him, they checked him less than your saying Kobe checked ANYBODY! Lol, it's like Kobe just wandered around, fell into 10 All-defensive teams by accident and got 3 gift rings from Shaq just for showing up. It was all a myth. And you talk about my bias?
And explain to me how a hand check is really going to stop Kobe from doing anything he wants to do? How, and why? Your talking about Larry Bird like he had one tenth of the mobility of Kobe. And talking about Wade's defense is like talking about Iverson's "defense." Getting steals and blocks means you have good anticipation, that's it. Mutumbo was maybe the best shotblocker ever, but if he didn't block it, he sure wasn't going to stop you. Great defense is moving your feet and covering your man across the entire floor, not run from behind blocks on people that got by you in the first place, or playing the passing lanes, that's just great anticipation, not defense. If that were the case, Iverson is an all time great defender, he averages more steals than Wade.
And gimme a break about Ray Allen, Kobe just hit game winners in his face and Wade's face this year, these guys have never stopped Kobe from anything on the court. It's easy to look good when Kevin Garnett, another specimen Jordan never in his life had to deal with for the majority of his career, a 7 foot perimeter player, and Kendrick Perkins are trapping him with you. You need to check those Finals games you love to bring up, the Celtics ran 4 players at a time on Kobe!! 4!! Just look at the zone they played, nobody was going to just walk through that. Not Jordan, Not Magic, Not Lebron, Nobody. Add to that, the ease with which they took the heart from Pau Gasol, the same Gasol your trying to build up as an all time great, and that's why they lost in that fashion. Guarantee you, if they get the Celtics again in the Finals, Gasol will disappear again, and this is the guy who's giving Kobe everything?
The bottomline is, you don't respect the man's game, and that's fine. According to you, he just got lucky, and I guess your entitled to believe that. Keeping this up is growing tiresome, especially doing it at work, I'm surprised I haven't gotten fired yet lol. I just wish people could appreciate what he is while he's still doing it, he's been the most underrated all time great I think ever existed in Basketball, second only to Scottie Pippen, and both are a result of Jordan's "myth"
But if nothing else, when it's all over, and they play that long highlight reel on Sportscenter to put a cap on Kobe's career, even if you don't say it out loud, just remember who told you how good that man actually was. Yes I said it and I'll say it again and anybody with two eyes can see, Kobe is a better skilled player than Jordan or anybody else who's ever laced up sneakers, and that's just what it is. Your brought up Phil Jackson before, and even he says it, and he wrote a book about hating Kobe. Shaquille O'neal said it, no matter how many times he tried to backpedal, Michael Jordan himself has refuted everything you've been saying on these pages. Jordan HIMSELF has said Kobe is the best of this generation, better than Lebron & Wade and everybody else, the best in the whole entire world. And he knows full damn well, in his prime, he would have a hard time dealing with Kobe too.
And who exactly was Jordan "producing" against during these fantastic Wizard years you keep referring to? Who was he dominating? All these players I mentioned barely checked him, they checked him less than your saying Kobe checked ANYBODY! Lol, it's like Kobe just wandered around, fell into 10 All-defensive teams by accident and got 3 gift rings from Shaq just for showing up. It was all a myth. And you talk about my bias?
And explain to me how a hand check is really going to stop Kobe from doing anything he wants to do? How, and why? Your talking about Larry Bird like he had one tenth of the mobility of Kobe. And talking about Wade's defense is like talking about Iverson's "defense." Getting steals and blocks means you have good anticipation, that's it. Mutumbo was maybe the best shotblocker ever, but if he didn't block it, he sure wasn't going to stop you. Great defense is moving your feet and covering your man across the entire floor, not run from behind blocks on people that got by you in the first place, or playing the passing lanes, that's just great anticipation, not defense. If that were the case, Iverson is an all time great defender, he averages more steals than Wade.
And gimme a break about Ray Allen, Kobe just hit game winners in his face and Wade's face this year, these guys have never stopped Kobe from anything on the court. It's easy to look good when Kevin Garnett, another specimen Jordan never in his life had to deal with for the majority of his career, a 7 foot perimeter player, and Kendrick Perkins are trapping him with you. You need to check those Finals games you love to bring up, the Celtics ran 4 players at a time on Kobe!! 4!! Just look at the zone they played, nobody was going to just walk through that. Not Jordan, Not Magic, Not Lebron, Nobody. Add to that, the ease with which they took the heart from Pau Gasol, the same Gasol your trying to build up as an all time great, and that's why they lost in that fashion. Guarantee you, if they get the Celtics again in the Finals, Gasol will disappear again, and this is the guy who's giving Kobe everything?
The bottomline is, you don't respect the man's game, and that's fine. According to you, he just got lucky, and I guess your entitled to believe that. Keeping this up is growing tiresome, especially doing it at work, I'm surprised I haven't gotten fired yet lol. I just wish people could appreciate what he is while he's still doing it, he's been the most underrated all time great I think ever existed in Basketball, second only to Scottie Pippen, and both are a result of Jordan's "myth"
But if nothing else, when it's all over, and they play that long highlight reel on Sportscenter to put a cap on Kobe's career, even if you don't say it out loud, just remember who told you how good that man actually was. Yes I said it and I'll say it again and anybody with two eyes can see, Kobe is a better skilled player than Jordan or anybody else who's ever laced up sneakers, and that's just what it is. Your brought up Phil Jackson before, and even he says it, and he wrote a book about hating Kobe. Shaquille O'neal said it, no matter how many times he tried to backpedal, Michael Jordan himself has refuted everything you've been saying on these pages. Jordan HIMSELF has said Kobe is the best of this generation, better than Lebron & Wade and everybody else, the best in the whole entire world. And he knows full damn well, in his prime, he would have a hard time dealing with Kobe too.
# 43
jdareal21 @ May 18
Oh Lebron too, has said Kobe was better than him on more than one occasion as well. So everybody, leave me the hell alone about it, lol
# 44
marq @ May 18
Keeping you!?!?! ARe you serious? You dragged me into this! I never said Kobe wasn't great. In fact, I said it plenty of times. What I've said was he is NOT better than Jordan on any level, in any way. You change the argument to when it fits your agenda. At 39-40, MJ averaged 21 per game. He dropped 50 and 40 on a few occassions, and played against all of the players you mention, save a few still in college/high school. HAve you say it, Kobe was the leader of EVERY Laker title team, is the best defender in the (though he has never won DPY) compare Wade's D to AI (laughable) and write MJ off as a myth with NOTHING to back it up. That Celtics team that won the title wasn't the greatest Defensive team ever. Neither were the Pistons who beat The Lakers. If you think MJ goes out by blowing a 25 point lead at home in the Finals, and loses clinching game by 39, you have no credibility. That was the criticism that you choose to forget.
ALso, so what he hit some game winners this year. He's had them hit on him too. He does not shut down any player you mentioned either. That's the myth. You want Kobe to be better than MJ, and he's not. Not in intangibles, not on D, not accomplishments, not ANYTHING except for total numbers when it's all said and done as he will have a much longer NBA career.
Phil Jackson also said that He would take MJ all day over Kobe. He says that EVERY TIME. Kobe is an imitation of MJ, plain and simple. Again, as great a player as Kobe is, he is not and will never be MJ. Check any player, any basketball book, any account and overwhelmingly they will tell you the same. There will never be another MJ though in time someone may surpass him, but it won't be mini-me. Stop hating on Shuttlesworth, he gave your boy the business in '08. and now we're acting like MJ didn't face illegal defenses in the 80's, it's on youtube if you don't remember, go check it out tape man...
Tex on Kobe's D:"I'd like to see him play better defense," Winter said, adding that he had addressed the issue recently with Bryant but didn't come away with the idea that Bryant was intent on changing his approach.
"You know Kobe," Winter said with a chuckle. "He has his game plan. I think he heard me. But he feels there's a certain way he's got to play the game. But it doesn't involve a lot of basically sound defense."
Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.
"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."
Kobe is a great player (I've said this a million times, stop implying otherwise) but you need to stay in your lane, stop throwing rocks at the throne and accept truth. He's not better than MJ, never will be...it's been said time and again, now go back to work, you must live in LA...
see you in the forums
ALso, so what he hit some game winners this year. He's had them hit on him too. He does not shut down any player you mentioned either. That's the myth. You want Kobe to be better than MJ, and he's not. Not in intangibles, not on D, not accomplishments, not ANYTHING except for total numbers when it's all said and done as he will have a much longer NBA career.
Phil Jackson also said that He would take MJ all day over Kobe. He says that EVERY TIME. Kobe is an imitation of MJ, plain and simple. Again, as great a player as Kobe is, he is not and will never be MJ. Check any player, any basketball book, any account and overwhelmingly they will tell you the same. There will never be another MJ though in time someone may surpass him, but it won't be mini-me. Stop hating on Shuttlesworth, he gave your boy the business in '08. and now we're acting like MJ didn't face illegal defenses in the 80's, it's on youtube if you don't remember, go check it out tape man...
Tex on Kobe's D:"I'd like to see him play better defense," Winter said, adding that he had addressed the issue recently with Bryant but didn't come away with the idea that Bryant was intent on changing his approach.
"You know Kobe," Winter said with a chuckle. "He has his game plan. I think he heard me. But he feels there's a certain way he's got to play the game. But it doesn't involve a lot of basically sound defense."
Because the Lakers need so much of his effort at the offensive end, Bryant has adopted a save-energy plan on the defensive end, Winter said. "He's basically playing a lot of one-man zone. He's doing a lot of switching, zoning up, trying to come up with the interception.
"The way Kobe plays defensively affects the team," Winter added. "Anybody that doesn't play consistently good defense hurts the team. That's not only Kobe. Our other guards tend to gamble and get beat. Another problem is that the screen and roll is not played correctly."
Kobe is a great player (I've said this a million times, stop implying otherwise) but you need to stay in your lane, stop throwing rocks at the throne and accept truth. He's not better than MJ, never will be...it's been said time and again, now go back to work, you must live in LA...
see you in the forums
# 45
jdareal21 @ May 18
Whatever Marq, Kobe is better than or equal to Jordan in any basketball skill based category you want to talk about. Anybody with Basketball sense will tell you the same exact thing, it's not just me saying it, and nobody is saying that dims Jordan's light in any way. But the manner in which people like you elevate this guy is truly insane. He dominated an era in which he was superior to 90% of the athletes he faced, it's just that simple and I'm not gonna repeat it anymore, if you can't see that, that's fine.
Not once have I changed my argument to fit anything, but you have, a few times. And I don't know what interview your talking about, the interview I'm citing, Phil didn't say he'd take anybody over the other. He said Kobe had a better skillset (the same thing I've been saying) but Michael had large hands that allowed him to do things. And that's all he said.
To say that Celtics team wasn't a defensive powerhouse is absurd. To say that I want somebody to be better than Jordan is even more absurd, what in the world am I getting out of that? I'm just a fan who isn't blind to the things I see. If your telling me that Jordan wasn't an athletic anomaly, much like Jim Brown in football or Wilt Chamberlain before him, or Lebron James now, then we have nothing to talk about.
And furthermore, this is my blog homeboy, how'd you get dragged into anything? You didn't have to mention Jordan, this was a blog about Kobe being better than Lebron James, and because people can't sensibly refute that, they threw in Jordan, which still isn't gonna win any argument from me, I'm sorry. Just keep watching, that's all I'ma say. Jordan can't add anything to his resume, while reports of Kobe's demise are greatly exaggerated...
Not once have I changed my argument to fit anything, but you have, a few times. And I don't know what interview your talking about, the interview I'm citing, Phil didn't say he'd take anybody over the other. He said Kobe had a better skillset (the same thing I've been saying) but Michael had large hands that allowed him to do things. And that's all he said.
To say that Celtics team wasn't a defensive powerhouse is absurd. To say that I want somebody to be better than Jordan is even more absurd, what in the world am I getting out of that? I'm just a fan who isn't blind to the things I see. If your telling me that Jordan wasn't an athletic anomaly, much like Jim Brown in football or Wilt Chamberlain before him, or Lebron James now, then we have nothing to talk about.
And furthermore, this is my blog homeboy, how'd you get dragged into anything? You didn't have to mention Jordan, this was a blog about Kobe being better than Lebron James, and because people can't sensibly refute that, they threw in Jordan, which still isn't gonna win any argument from me, I'm sorry. Just keep watching, that's all I'ma say. Jordan can't add anything to his resume, while reports of Kobe's demise are greatly exaggerated...
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gives information concerning the positions to build teams around for success. Significant because it shows the leaders of the past title teams and the dominant position on that team.