jdareal21's Blog
Well maybe not bashing, see I do, in fact, love watching Lebron play. But don't make excuses for Lebron James, there's none that would suffice anyway. He is supremely talented, the most gifted athlete the NBA's ever seen. But by no means is he the best player in the game....not yet.
Lebron to me is the equivalent of Peyton Manning in basketball shorts. Two athletes who can produce astronomical stats that tend to lead the media & fans alike to crown them among the greatest of all times. Hold on...not so fast
.First of all, let's stop with the Jordan-Lebron comparisons, it's a whole new era, and regardless of how clouded your memory may be, Michael Jordan, like Kobe Bryant as well, would struggle against this Celtic defense, and your kidding yourself if you think otherwise. But let's cut to the chase and get down to business.
- No, what Lebron did in Game 5 is not the same as what Kobe did in Game 7 against the Suns in 2006. Kobe was coming off of being ridiculed by his coach, his team & the media, for shooting too much in an overtime loss in Game 6. A game in which he scored 50 pts. For someone who's been criticized as a me-first, selfish player his whole career, for someone who played out of his mind (alongside Smush & Kwame no less) to even force a Game 7, his sensitivity to the backlash, while not condoned, is at least understandable.
On the other hand, no one on Earth has ever called Lebron selfish, in fact, it's his ability to "make his team better" that everyone cites as the sole reason he's supposedly the best in the game. Actually, everyone encouraged Lebron to shoot more, to be more aggressive, after his lackluster Game 4 display. And he proceeded to sleepwalk through the whole entire game. Kobe & the Lakers against the Suns in '06 weren't expected to win anything, let alone the title. Lebron and these Cavaliers had the best record, two years straight. You don't do that if your team is complete garbage, like most people seem to believe now.
- No, Don't talk to me about stats either. We need to remember that sometimes, stats can be misleading. Lebron, like Peyton Manning, dominates his offense in a way that allows for huge numbers, but not necessarily postseason stability. Also, Kobe came in the league having to work himself into the rotation, and then he had to work with Shaq, while Lebron, like Jordan before him, came into the league with free reign over abysmal teams. They were allowed to jack up as many shots as they wanted, and earn the accolades and stats that go with it. If Kobe was given that opportunity, he may not have 4 rings, but he would sure as hell be statistically far superior to what he is now, which still isn't too shabby.
The Cavs offense, regardless of Mike Brown's ineffectiveness, revolves around Lebron isolating at the top of the key looking to create. This allows him to dish out of traffic to a team full of spot up shooters, thus, creating big assist numbers. Is that truly making his teammates better? I don't know, they made it to the NBA because of their shooting ability, so I think at best, he creates an environment for them to utilize that skill. There's no such thing as "making someone better" at a sport. Passing the ball to someone who can't do anything with it won't make them any better, you can throw an alley-oop to someone in a wheelchair to test this statement if you wish.
At 6'9, 250 lbs (depending on lunch) Lebron should be pulling down 8+ rebounds a game, after all, he is a forward, and he's in position around the paint to do so. Likewise, Rajon Rondo doing that is much more impressive, standing at 6'0 and weighing little over 175 lbs, but nobody is rushing to call him the best in the game. You place Lebron in a true offense, like the triangle, that is predicated on everyone touching the ball and making decisions, and his assists go way down. Put the ball in Kobe's hands, isolate him at the top of the key every possession, and tell him to create, and I guarantee you his assists go up. Either that or he scores 81 pts.
-Yes, let's talk about actual Basketball skills. Substance, not style. Actual perimeter defense, not running up and blocking shots from players you let get by you in the first place. Looking at this series, it's painfully obvious that, for someone of Lebron's stature, he is severely lacking in two key areas. His mid-range game, and his post up game. It's inexcusable that someone that size has yet to develop low post moves. It's almost as criminal as Dwight Howard's "big man" skill set. Everything with Lebron is either a long three, for which he has shown time and again his inconsistency, or drives to the basket, which will diminish rapidly as soon as his physical gifts give way. Pull up any footage you can find of Lebron guarding Kobe, and you'll witness the strange difference. Kobe Bryant can post Lebron James up, and has success doing it. His footwork, shooting ability and anticipation is why he's able to do that to someone bigger, stronger, and faster, skills that Lebron better hone if he ever hopes to win when it matters.
To put it plainly, Lebron is a physical specimen who has yet to fully develop the necessary skills to elevate to the next level. It's not the team, or the coach, that stopped Lebron from beating the Celts. It was his game. Yeah I'm bias, but the utter disrespect to Kobe Bryant that he's faced his whole career is insane. Sure he played with Shaq, and fought off the Pacers on a sprained ankle in the Finals while Shaq was on the bench fouled out in a pivotal game. Yeah, he played with Shaq, and also happened to average 30 points as the "secondary" option during that second title run. Yup, he played with Shaq, and was also the sole reason Shaq and company weren't swept against the Pistons in the Finals. You want to continue to downgrade him for sacrificing his game to win titles with Shaq, fine, get back to me after he finishes another 3-peat...
# 17
jdareal21 @ May 17
@ marg
Explain how your just a robin to Shaq's Batman and you average 30 ppg!!? How was it all about Shaq when he's sitting on the bench fouled out against the Pacers in a pivotal swing game that could decide the series, and Kobe overcomes them by himself on a sprained ankle? Anytime the Lakers needed anything done in the clutch, it was Kobe, not just some of the time, ALL of the time.
It wasn't Gasol's numbers against the Celtics, it was his presence, his defensive ability to get in there and stop somebody, to grab rebounds that were tough, not the ones that fall into your lap. Numbers don't quantify effort, or heart, two things that could cost us yet again if Bynum isn't there to help this year.
Jordan consistently shot over 50% coming into the league because he could jump, or run past everybody, this is my point. In his younger days he never was at an athletic disadvantage, it's how he became "Air" Jordan in the first place, he played above the rim like nobody ever did before him, and he just attacked the basket, which he should have done, I'm not knocking it, but that's not the same as shooting jumpshots primarily, like Kobe's game.
Magic had just the first of his all time great performances in that game, but nobody cares when they rank him, or Kareem, or James Worthy. They're all part of the 50 greatest, so why is it not a knock against them for playing with each other when we talk about all time greats? Kobe played with one for a portion of his career, and people treat it as some sort of knock against him? He was the same focal point that Shaq was. Nobody bashes Jerry Rice for playing with Joe Montana, nobody cares Bird had Mchale & Parrish, why is it such a dealbreaker for Kobe? You say Shaq dominated his position, wel Kobe dominated his as well, it's why they were unstoppable together, period.
Jordan averaged 22 and 20 on a below average team where he was looked at as a god by everyone playing with and against him. Trust me, when Kobe reaches the same age he'll probably get the same treatment from kids watching him now, and he just might average more. (you also forgot Melo along with James, Durant, Wade etc. Any one of those guys would dominate Jordan's era as well) Oh and by the way, Kobe broke the record for pts in a half on Jordan's farewell Staples visit. Take that Mike
Explain how your just a robin to Shaq's Batman and you average 30 ppg!!? How was it all about Shaq when he's sitting on the bench fouled out against the Pacers in a pivotal swing game that could decide the series, and Kobe overcomes them by himself on a sprained ankle? Anytime the Lakers needed anything done in the clutch, it was Kobe, not just some of the time, ALL of the time.
It wasn't Gasol's numbers against the Celtics, it was his presence, his defensive ability to get in there and stop somebody, to grab rebounds that were tough, not the ones that fall into your lap. Numbers don't quantify effort, or heart, two things that could cost us yet again if Bynum isn't there to help this year.
Jordan consistently shot over 50% coming into the league because he could jump, or run past everybody, this is my point. In his younger days he never was at an athletic disadvantage, it's how he became "Air" Jordan in the first place, he played above the rim like nobody ever did before him, and he just attacked the basket, which he should have done, I'm not knocking it, but that's not the same as shooting jumpshots primarily, like Kobe's game.
Magic had just the first of his all time great performances in that game, but nobody cares when they rank him, or Kareem, or James Worthy. They're all part of the 50 greatest, so why is it not a knock against them for playing with each other when we talk about all time greats? Kobe played with one for a portion of his career, and people treat it as some sort of knock against him? He was the same focal point that Shaq was. Nobody bashes Jerry Rice for playing with Joe Montana, nobody cares Bird had Mchale & Parrish, why is it such a dealbreaker for Kobe? You say Shaq dominated his position, wel Kobe dominated his as well, it's why they were unstoppable together, period.
Jordan averaged 22 and 20 on a below average team where he was looked at as a god by everyone playing with and against him. Trust me, when Kobe reaches the same age he'll probably get the same treatment from kids watching him now, and he just might average more. (you also forgot Melo along with James, Durant, Wade etc. Any one of those guys would dominate Jordan's era as well) Oh and by the way, Kobe broke the record for pts in a half on Jordan's farewell Staples visit. Take that Mike
# 18
marq @ May 17
@Jda
This has been entertaining. First, Kobe is Robin because Shaq was the dominant force, focal point, and face/leader of the team. Shaq was still the catalyst. Yes, Kobe was 29.4 ppg, but Shaq so thoroghly dominated the series it wasn't even funny. From 44 and 20 game 1, 28 20 and 9 game 2, 30 and 12 game 3, 34 and 14 game 4, to 29 13 and 5 blocks game 5. That's why.
He wasn't the same focal point that Shaq was. Phil said so himself. He WANTED to be, that's why he started shooting more and the dynasty fell apart, see Detroit.
And how can we forget that Jordan played against the following:
Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Alvin Robertson, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Latrell Sprewell, Mitch Richmond, Ron Harper (before the knee injury), Michael Cooper, Mo Cheeks, Derek Harper, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Larry Nance, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Olajuwon, Eaton, Ewing, Robinson, Dan Majerle (was all defense), Payton, Starks, Derrick McKey, Eddie Jones, Stacy Augmon,etc.
Besides, you don't think the youngsters were looking to pick Jordan's bones when he came back?! They were trying to block his shots, score on him, and embarass him, just couldn't do it. Good for Kobe on the record. I remember that night. Kobe more than likely won't be playing at 40 since his body won't hold up. Plenty of players from 84-99 would dominate today with the no handcheck, zone D and lack of quality centers.
The reason that Kobe gets a knock is because of you, his vocal supporters. You want Kobe to be mentioned with MJ as the greatest, even going so far as to say better than MJ, but you can't. Nobody says Magic, Bird, etc. are better than MJ. He was a once in a generation player. He did things that no other guard ever did. It was unheard of for a wing player to lead a team to a title much less a dynasty. People do care about Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers, that's why they are regarded as the greatest teams ever. But when it's all said and done, and you begin to separate players based on their accomplishments and how they arrived there, MJ stands above them all.
This has been entertaining. First, Kobe is Robin because Shaq was the dominant force, focal point, and face/leader of the team. Shaq was still the catalyst. Yes, Kobe was 29.4 ppg, but Shaq so thoroghly dominated the series it wasn't even funny. From 44 and 20 game 1, 28 20 and 9 game 2, 30 and 12 game 3, 34 and 14 game 4, to 29 13 and 5 blocks game 5. That's why.
He wasn't the same focal point that Shaq was. Phil said so himself. He WANTED to be, that's why he started shooting more and the dynasty fell apart, see Detroit.
And how can we forget that Jordan played against the following:
Dominique Wilkins, Clyde Drexler, Alvin Robertson, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Latrell Sprewell, Mitch Richmond, Ron Harper (before the knee injury), Michael Cooper, Mo Cheeks, Derek Harper, Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Larry Nance, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Olajuwon, Eaton, Ewing, Robinson, Dan Majerle (was all defense), Payton, Starks, Derrick McKey, Eddie Jones, Stacy Augmon,etc.
Besides, you don't think the youngsters were looking to pick Jordan's bones when he came back?! They were trying to block his shots, score on him, and embarass him, just couldn't do it. Good for Kobe on the record. I remember that night. Kobe more than likely won't be playing at 40 since his body won't hold up. Plenty of players from 84-99 would dominate today with the no handcheck, zone D and lack of quality centers.
The reason that Kobe gets a knock is because of you, his vocal supporters. You want Kobe to be mentioned with MJ as the greatest, even going so far as to say better than MJ, but you can't. Nobody says Magic, Bird, etc. are better than MJ. He was a once in a generation player. He did things that no other guard ever did. It was unheard of for a wing player to lead a team to a title much less a dynasty. People do care about Bird's Celtics and Magic's Lakers, that's why they are regarded as the greatest teams ever. But when it's all said and done, and you begin to separate players based on their accomplishments and how they arrived there, MJ stands above them all.
# 19
jdareal21 @ May 17
@marq
It has been fun, but it's people like you who make fans like me so vocal. You talk about stats and championships, and Jordan isn't close in either category statistically to be considered the greatest.
It's just ridiculous & highly blasphemous to overlook Bill Russell, an 11-time champion, or Wilt Chamberlain who either held or still holds more statistical records than anybody ever. Is Jordan better than them, if so, why? Using your logic, there's no way he should be.
And let's also be real here, Shaq's never played without a superstar his whole ENTIRE CAREER. Not once. So why is this never a knock against him? How could you ever focus in on just stopping him if every team he's ever played on had not just an outside threat, but a superstar outside threat? Guess it doesn't matter huh?
Those players you named, are a reach to say the least:
Dominique, MJ's only true athletic doppleganger, also happened to play zero defense
Ditto for Clyde
Alvin Robertson was hardly a physical match, not even considering he was only like 6'2
Grant Hill played against Jordan a handful of seasons, never really reaching his prime, and still was almost the MVP. Same for Penny, even though he had his moments against MJ anyway.
Latrell Sprewell, Derek Harper, Dan Majerle, Starks, Mckey, Malone, Augmon & Eddie Jones, are you kidding me? These are athletes like Jordan? You telling me Kobe Bryant would struggle with ANY of these guys? C'mon man, your better than that
Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson don't even play close to the same position or match up against Jordan. And in Barkley's case, he was hardly a "athletic specimen." The round mound of rebound wasn't gonna stop Jordan anywhere outside of the paint, if that. He was a great rebounder, tuuurrrible defender, as he would say himself.
The bottomline is, Kobe Bryant is a more refined basketball player than Michael Jordan. His dribbling ability is better, his shooting ability and range are better, his low post is now comparable, his defense is on par, his tenacity is right there, his ability to play through pain is second to none. His perimeter defense is close, he spent the first half of his career averaging 5-6 assists per game to somebody he can't stand, what else is there to do?
The sweet thing is that, regardless of what these pundits feed you, he's nowhere close to being down. He's injured, not old, and once the story is fully told, there will only be more ammunition. He's played against Jordan, in the flesh. This isn't some fantasy matchup, they've played against each other and guarded each other. And Kobe did to him what he does every night. Whatever he wants...
It has been fun, but it's people like you who make fans like me so vocal. You talk about stats and championships, and Jordan isn't close in either category statistically to be considered the greatest.
It's just ridiculous & highly blasphemous to overlook Bill Russell, an 11-time champion, or Wilt Chamberlain who either held or still holds more statistical records than anybody ever. Is Jordan better than them, if so, why? Using your logic, there's no way he should be.
And let's also be real here, Shaq's never played without a superstar his whole ENTIRE CAREER. Not once. So why is this never a knock against him? How could you ever focus in on just stopping him if every team he's ever played on had not just an outside threat, but a superstar outside threat? Guess it doesn't matter huh?
Those players you named, are a reach to say the least:
Dominique, MJ's only true athletic doppleganger, also happened to play zero defense
Ditto for Clyde
Alvin Robertson was hardly a physical match, not even considering he was only like 6'2
Grant Hill played against Jordan a handful of seasons, never really reaching his prime, and still was almost the MVP. Same for Penny, even though he had his moments against MJ anyway.
Latrell Sprewell, Derek Harper, Dan Majerle, Starks, Mckey, Malone, Augmon & Eddie Jones, are you kidding me? These are athletes like Jordan? You telling me Kobe Bryant would struggle with ANY of these guys? C'mon man, your better than that
Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson don't even play close to the same position or match up against Jordan. And in Barkley's case, he was hardly a "athletic specimen." The round mound of rebound wasn't gonna stop Jordan anywhere outside of the paint, if that. He was a great rebounder, tuuurrrible defender, as he would say himself.
The bottomline is, Kobe Bryant is a more refined basketball player than Michael Jordan. His dribbling ability is better, his shooting ability and range are better, his low post is now comparable, his defense is on par, his tenacity is right there, his ability to play through pain is second to none. His perimeter defense is close, he spent the first half of his career averaging 5-6 assists per game to somebody he can't stand, what else is there to do?
The sweet thing is that, regardless of what these pundits feed you, he's nowhere close to being down. He's injured, not old, and once the story is fully told, there will only be more ammunition. He's played against Jordan, in the flesh. This isn't some fantasy matchup, they've played against each other and guarded each other. And Kobe did to him what he does every night. Whatever he wants...
# 20
jdareal21 @ May 17
And if you want to be even more technical than that, in the head to head matchups Kobe had against Jordan, statistically, he had better all around numbers
# 22
jdareal21 @ May 17
@jmb10215, in comparison to their relative level of competition, there's no question Jordan was more athletic, he was then what Lebron James is now. That being said, Kobe from 96-2004 was no slouch, but he's never been viewed as having a distinct athletic advantage on a daily basis like a Lebron, Chamberlain or Jordan, or even a Jim Brown in Football.
Nobody can help what era they're born into, but that shouldn't stop us from looking at the situation plainly for what it is.
Nobody can help what era they're born into, but that shouldn't stop us from looking at the situation plainly for what it is.
# 23
jmb10215 @ May 17
@jdareal, Have you ever seen MJ play in his prime? just asking because it sounds like you only have watcth kobe play
# 24
jdareal21 @ May 17
@ jmb10215, are you serious? The reason why I say what I say is because I'm one of the most qualified to do so. I have Jordan VHS tapes right now, I lived through it, there was no bigger Jordan fan than me, he's who I grew up with, He's who I wanted to be, just like everybody else I know, which makes it even more maddening that people can't seem to separate what he represents.
He's like Ali & Jim Brown, someone who revolutionized his sport,and because of that, people never debate just skills when talking about him. It's a whole myth that goes along with it, which elevates him to an almost unattainable level of perfect, that simply never existed. And let's be clear, in about 15 or so years, the NBA will evolve to the point that Kobe wouldn't be able to exist in it as it does today, it's just how it is. The difference is, I'll be able to admit that when it happens
He's like Ali & Jim Brown, someone who revolutionized his sport,and because of that, people never debate just skills when talking about him. It's a whole myth that goes along with it, which elevates him to an almost unattainable level of perfect, that simply never existed. And let's be clear, in about 15 or so years, the NBA will evolve to the point that Kobe wouldn't be able to exist in it as it does today, it's just how it is. The difference is, I'll be able to admit that when it happens
# 25
jmb10215 @ May 17
@jdareal, man you know your stuff im a MJ fan for life but you put up the best argument for kobe vs MJ then anybody ive ever listened to
# 26
jdareal21 @ May 17
@jmb lol, trust me, I get a lot of practice. I don't say it just to rile people up, I loved MJ more than anybody, and still do, but I know in my heart that Kobe Bryant is at the very least just as good.
# 27
jmb10215 @ May 17
@jdareal, but to be fair kobe was a little spoiled being in LA with phil jackson his whole career and when he faced some adversity he wanted to get traded to chicago. I love kobe but its the little things like that that wants me to dislike him lol
# 28
marq @ May 17
It has been fun, but it's people like you who make fans like me so vocal. You talk about stats and championships, and Jordan isn't close in either category statistically to be considered the greatest.
It's just ridiculous & highly blasphemous to overlook Bill Russell, an 11-time champion, or Wilt Chamberlain who either held or still holds more statistical records than anybody ever. Is Jordan better than them, if so, why? Using your logic, there's no way he should be.
No it isn't, and I'll tell you why, um, the NBA had an unwritten quota of only 2 black basketball players per team in that era. As a matter of fact, until the ABA merger, the league was not truly on an even playing field as far as all of the best players playing at the same time in the same league. So, while I respect Russell's accomplishments, I also realize the context in which they were achieved. Same with Wilt. I've read plenty of books/articles on the era and the same issues stand out. Also, there were a smaller number of teams then, so you can believe that the best teams always had an advantage.
And let's also be real here, Shaq's never played without a superstar his whole ENTIRE CAREER. Not once. So why is this never a knock against him? How could you ever focus in on just stopping him if every team he's ever played on had not just an outside threat, but a superstar outside threat? Guess it doesn't matter huh?
Say what you want about Shaq, and believe me, I have, but he was the most dominant Center of his time. When he was traded to LA he came into his dominant self. In Jordan's last year as a Bull, SHAQ led LA to a 61-21 record. Kobe came off the bench for 78 of his 79 games. Oh, and he averaged 8 points in the playoffs. It was Shaq's team. There really is no debating this. YOU are better than that. Why are you trying to rewrite history? Shaq continued to dominate as they won titles. Yes, Kobe was a major part, but it was SHAQ'S TEAM and it's not debateable.
Those players you named, are a reach to say the least:
Dominique, MJ's only true athletic doppleganger, also happened to play zero defense
Ditto for Clyde
Alvin Robertson was hardly a physical match, not even considering he was only like 6'2
Grant Hill played against Jordan a handful of seasons, never really reaching his prime, and still was almost the MVP. Same for Penny, even though he had his moments against MJ anyway.
Latrell Sprewell, Derek Harper, Dan Majerle, Starks, Mckey, Malone, Augmon & Eddie Jones, are you kidding me? These are athletes like Jordan? You telling me Kobe Bryant would struggle with ANY of these guys? C'mon man, your better than that
Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson don't even play close to the same position or match up against Jordan. And in Barkley's case, he was hardly a "athletic specimen." The round mound of rebound wasn't gonna stop Jordan anywhere outside of the paint, if that. He was a great rebounder, tuuurrrible defender, as he would say himself.
These players were mentioned because they were either all-time defensive players or all-time superstars. You act as if everyone in the league today is a shutdown defender. There aren't even defensive centers anymore, other than Howard and he's only 6'10. He's not better than the Dream or Robinson. You mentioned 'Melo and Durant, but neither one can play defense. Both Penny and Hill were in their uninjured primes while Jordan was on his SECOND 3-PEAT. The three centers were defensive dangers that are no longer present. Especially for a slasher/post player. I don't know how a player 6'4 like Barkley isn't an athletic specimen when he AVERAGED 25 and 12 at the PF position. Name a player comparable today. You can't. He was dynamic. Tell me, who are the defensive stoppers today? Thabo Sefolosha?! Gerald Wallace? Think they would hold Jordan?
The bottomline is, Kobe Bryant is a more refined basketball player than Michael Jordan. His dribbling ability is better, his shooting ability and range are better, his low post is now comparable, his defense is on par, his tenacity is right there, his ability to play through pain is second to none. His perimeter defense is close, he spent the first half of his career averaging 5-6 assists per game to somebody he can't stand, what else is there to do?
The sweet thing is that, regardless of what these pundits feed you, he's nowhere close to being down. He's injured, not old, and once the story is fully told, there will only be more ammunition. He's played against Jordan, in the flesh. This isn't some fantasy matchup, they've played against each other and guarded each other. And Kobe did to him what he does every night. Whatever he wants...
Again, you talk about these refined skills, but how are you quantifying them? Jordan's numbers, efficiency, defensive win shares, offensive win shares, accomplishments, etc. all dwarf Kobe and they played in the same era. Yes, Kobe will end up with more points because he would have played more NBA seasons, but even with his handles, he turns the ball over more per game than Jordan. Anyway you look at it, Jordan is better. I don't really know what you're missing. Let's do this: Go to 1998 and look at the Chi/LA matchup (doing this because if you go to Kobe's first two years it's total Chicago domination of Kobe). They played played on December 17, 1997 Kobe scored 33 off the bench to MJ's 36, and the Bulls won by 21, but no Shaq. Played again February 1, 1998, Jordan had 31, Kobe 20 off the bench and LA won by 25, Shaq played. Btw, the Eddie Jones you dismissed earlier was starting ahead of Kobe. And sorry, but it IS a fantasy matchup. Because if you want to count the 6 games they played against each other in the late 90's, it's no contest. MJ scored on Kobe at will.
@jmb
Don't get hyped on his argument. He still hasn't addressed the teams LA played in the Finals and those guard matchups ONE TIME. It's fine to speculate, but numbers, accomplishments, and circumstances don't lie,
It's just ridiculous & highly blasphemous to overlook Bill Russell, an 11-time champion, or Wilt Chamberlain who either held or still holds more statistical records than anybody ever. Is Jordan better than them, if so, why? Using your logic, there's no way he should be.
No it isn't, and I'll tell you why, um, the NBA had an unwritten quota of only 2 black basketball players per team in that era. As a matter of fact, until the ABA merger, the league was not truly on an even playing field as far as all of the best players playing at the same time in the same league. So, while I respect Russell's accomplishments, I also realize the context in which they were achieved. Same with Wilt. I've read plenty of books/articles on the era and the same issues stand out. Also, there were a smaller number of teams then, so you can believe that the best teams always had an advantage.
And let's also be real here, Shaq's never played without a superstar his whole ENTIRE CAREER. Not once. So why is this never a knock against him? How could you ever focus in on just stopping him if every team he's ever played on had not just an outside threat, but a superstar outside threat? Guess it doesn't matter huh?
Say what you want about Shaq, and believe me, I have, but he was the most dominant Center of his time. When he was traded to LA he came into his dominant self. In Jordan's last year as a Bull, SHAQ led LA to a 61-21 record. Kobe came off the bench for 78 of his 79 games. Oh, and he averaged 8 points in the playoffs. It was Shaq's team. There really is no debating this. YOU are better than that. Why are you trying to rewrite history? Shaq continued to dominate as they won titles. Yes, Kobe was a major part, but it was SHAQ'S TEAM and it's not debateable.
Those players you named, are a reach to say the least:
Dominique, MJ's only true athletic doppleganger, also happened to play zero defense
Ditto for Clyde
Alvin Robertson was hardly a physical match, not even considering he was only like 6'2
Grant Hill played against Jordan a handful of seasons, never really reaching his prime, and still was almost the MVP. Same for Penny, even though he had his moments against MJ anyway.
Latrell Sprewell, Derek Harper, Dan Majerle, Starks, Mckey, Malone, Augmon & Eddie Jones, are you kidding me? These are athletes like Jordan? You telling me Kobe Bryant would struggle with ANY of these guys? C'mon man, your better than that
Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson don't even play close to the same position or match up against Jordan. And in Barkley's case, he was hardly a "athletic specimen." The round mound of rebound wasn't gonna stop Jordan anywhere outside of the paint, if that. He was a great rebounder, tuuurrrible defender, as he would say himself.
These players were mentioned because they were either all-time defensive players or all-time superstars. You act as if everyone in the league today is a shutdown defender. There aren't even defensive centers anymore, other than Howard and he's only 6'10. He's not better than the Dream or Robinson. You mentioned 'Melo and Durant, but neither one can play defense. Both Penny and Hill were in their uninjured primes while Jordan was on his SECOND 3-PEAT. The three centers were defensive dangers that are no longer present. Especially for a slasher/post player. I don't know how a player 6'4 like Barkley isn't an athletic specimen when he AVERAGED 25 and 12 at the PF position. Name a player comparable today. You can't. He was dynamic. Tell me, who are the defensive stoppers today? Thabo Sefolosha?! Gerald Wallace? Think they would hold Jordan?
The bottomline is, Kobe Bryant is a more refined basketball player than Michael Jordan. His dribbling ability is better, his shooting ability and range are better, his low post is now comparable, his defense is on par, his tenacity is right there, his ability to play through pain is second to none. His perimeter defense is close, he spent the first half of his career averaging 5-6 assists per game to somebody he can't stand, what else is there to do?
The sweet thing is that, regardless of what these pundits feed you, he's nowhere close to being down. He's injured, not old, and once the story is fully told, there will only be more ammunition. He's played against Jordan, in the flesh. This isn't some fantasy matchup, they've played against each other and guarded each other. And Kobe did to him what he does every night. Whatever he wants...
Again, you talk about these refined skills, but how are you quantifying them? Jordan's numbers, efficiency, defensive win shares, offensive win shares, accomplishments, etc. all dwarf Kobe and they played in the same era. Yes, Kobe will end up with more points because he would have played more NBA seasons, but even with his handles, he turns the ball over more per game than Jordan. Anyway you look at it, Jordan is better. I don't really know what you're missing. Let's do this: Go to 1998 and look at the Chi/LA matchup (doing this because if you go to Kobe's first two years it's total Chicago domination of Kobe). They played played on December 17, 1997 Kobe scored 33 off the bench to MJ's 36, and the Bulls won by 21, but no Shaq. Played again February 1, 1998, Jordan had 31, Kobe 20 off the bench and LA won by 25, Shaq played. Btw, the Eddie Jones you dismissed earlier was starting ahead of Kobe. And sorry, but it IS a fantasy matchup. Because if you want to count the 6 games they played against each other in the late 90's, it's no contest. MJ scored on Kobe at will.
@jmb
Don't get hyped on his argument. He still hasn't addressed the teams LA played in the Finals and those guard matchups ONE TIME. It's fine to speculate, but numbers, accomplishments, and circumstances don't lie,
# 30
marq @ May 17
@jmb
@gamer23
Agreed, Dwade doesn't get the respect he deserves. He works harder than anyone to keep his team competitive...
@gamer23
Agreed, Dwade doesn't get the respect he deserves. He works harder than anyone to keep his team competitive...
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Kobe was coming off Game 6 scoring 50 pts, and everybody, Phil Jackson, the media, his teammates (who consisted of Smush, Kwame & Luke) killed him for shooting too much. I'm not condoning what he did, but for someone who's been criticized as selfish his whole career, I could see him being sensitive to that, considering that he hit game-winners and played out of his mind in order to force that Game 7.
Lebron on the other hand had the whole world encouraging him to shoot more, to make up for his lackluster Game 4. Lebron's never been criticized for being too selfish, never was perceived as anything but a team player, and yet, he did nothing. There's no reason for that, he had a license to take that game over, they were practically screaming for him to do it. Nobody wanted Kobe to shoot that much in Game 7, least of all his team, who should've had his back regardless