A Frustration Amongst Greatness: NBA2K Generated Draft Classes

[JA Money14]

I usually don't make threads in here, as I don't want to clutter it even further past the threads that already do that. I do feel, though, that this issue holds enough weight that a logical, real, interesting discussion can and should be held about it.

As a few of you may be aware, I am a roster/slider/class editor, so I have a few years of experience dealing with this annoyance.

For pretty much forever, the generated draft classes have been the same thing. They are my biggest issues with the game and pretty much the one that holds me back from playing the game like I used to. As you spend hours and hours investing in a roster and sliders that will give you the perfect gameplay, if you're like me, you immediately want to take your creation into the games franchise mode. (Whether it be MyLeague or MyGM, the issue is blatantly obvious in both cases... Even MyCareer, later years along.)

However, I can't enjoy it. I can play that first year and be astonished at the gorgeous graphics and stunningly realistic gameplay, but in the back of my mind, I know that past the 1st year, the game is going to progressively get worse and worse. I am not, and cannot play MyTeam, MyPark, or any online stuff anymore.

My Sim-World brothers, Dreece, CWSapp, BlindsideNZ, and Ronyell, work their selfs to sleep deprivation to fix this issue, and what they have done far supercedes anything I could have imagined, greatly increasing the depth of franchises, which is what the game mode is supposed to be all about. But those guys can only do so much. I am forced to wait until they post another incredible class, and 2K just picks up dust while that happens. 2K advertised to me that you could play 80 years, but you can't.

Sure, they dressed it up very nice and gave the classes some life, this year... which is great... but all they did was wrap a terrible, cheap gift into some expensive wrapping paper. This is the longest I have gone without playing the storied basketball franchise I have enjoyed for 12+ years.

The actual issues are obvious (to me) and stick out like a sore thumb in the form of a lack of diverse players, broken ratings, illogical tendencies and just stupid player formation. I hate to name drop in this forum, but the other companies football game isn't perfect, but they have the generated classes done very well. It is something I can look forward to in the offseason!

Players have no real consistency in ratings. In a common generated class, there are no such things as specialists: Unless a guy is a top-5 pick, they will not be good at anything. They will just be horribly mediocre in everything. I have never seen a stretch 4 or 5 in this games classes. Ever. 3pt ratings are terrible deflated, again, with the best shooters only being lottery picks, something that is clearly not realistic. The best guys will typically be slashers and athletic finishers and that's about it. Everything is scaled by OVR, not by actual categories. The Tendencies are so far wrong it's crazy. I have NEVER fallen in love with a generated 2K player. It RUINS the game for me and many others that rely on the franchise modes.

Asthetically speaking, the players are silly looking as well. The elbow pad and double wrist tape that are different colors, whilst wearing number 39. It totally ruins the immersion for me.

2K's generated draft classes for long-term association and career modes are easily the worst of any sim sports franchise on the market. It isn't close.

I really think that us (HEAVY MINORITY) fanbase that looks at things like this that some feel are tedious, would greatly benefit and it would alleviate the stress on the sim draft class creators around the world.

Thanks for the rant space. I love 2K and I need it back in the form of a long-term association. Help me, 2K, you're my only hope.


EDIT: These are the results of my 20-year simulation to get a league-wide grasp on things and truly put the classes to the test.

Spoiler

Here it is:

The set up:

Orlando Magic

Sim-World Base Roster
82 games, Normal Playoffs
Hard Cap: 100
Injuries: On
User & CPU Injury: 60
User & CPU Injury Effects: 40
Draft Class Quality: 25 (Used to adjust to the deflated ratings of our Sim-World roster
Player Progression: 40

Everything else at 50.

I'm going to be going through this and focusing on 5 draft classes. The first 5 years. At the end of each rookie class I will be summarizing the season they had. Listing both positives and negatives.

Class #1

Notes:

Players with 70+ 3pt rating: 2 of 150

Players with 70+ Dunk rating: 4 of 150 (The top 4 prospects, conveniently.)

Big Men with 60+ Mid or 3pt: 2 of 150

Pretty much all of the 65 and under players are completely average and have no dissernable skillset in which to build on... but we'll see how they progress later in their careers.

End of Season 1:

Rookie of the year: PF Herbert Hudson, rd 1, pick 1, 15.6 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 1.5 apg.

The top player in the class leads in every rookie statistical category besides assists, because he is a PF. About 30 of the players have found a place in the rotation for their respective teams, which is good to see. Pretty realistic in terms of rookies. Besides the terrible jersey numbers, the awful accessories and the lack of 3pt shooting, nothing looks bad from a simulation standpoint.

Class #2

Notes:

Players with 70+ 3pt rating: 3 of 150 (All PG's)

Players with 70+ Dunk rating: 5 of 150 (Once again, 4 of the 5 are the top 4 prospects.)

Big Men with 60+ Mid or 3pt: 1 of 150 (Who is the top prospect, therefore only has that rating because the top prospects have ALL ratings inflated.)

Top C Prospect: 66 OVR "Raw Prospect" with D+ potential and no dissernable strengths.

One of the best Potential rated players is a 59 ovr SF that is completely terrible at everything, yet will one day be just average enough at everything to make a roster; this is fine, but not if it happens for EVERY non-lottery player, which is the case. Just like DC 1, all of the 65 and under players are completely average and have no dissernable skillset in which to build on... but we'll see how they progress later in their careers.

End of Season 2:

Rookie of the year: PF Garry Moody, rd 1 pick 1, 16.5 ppg, 8.0 RPG, 1.1 BPG

Amongst the elbow padded warriors in DC 2, we have another typical build statistically, although there were less players this season that earned legitimate playing time.. however now we can look back at DC 1. Of all 30 teams, there are 3 generated players that are a top 5 shooter on their teams.

I WILL give 2K credit here though... One of the SG prospects from DC 1, Dak Giannou has BURST from a lowly 72 3pt rating he held his rookie campaign to an 86 for the Thunder and has become a fantastic shooter. This is a perfect example of what bitterguy said, in that players can progress into specialists and develop varied talent, which makes me excited for future findings... It's a very small piece of cake, but I honestly was shocked and thought it was awesome to see.

Again though... The class is perimeter dominated and lacks a serious abundance of skilled big men.. whether it be through passing or post moves. Still, it's only 2 years, so I'll wait.

Another quick note about this season, I am beginning to get worried about the amount of 80+ ovr players. This issue has been a big one in the previous iterations of NBA 2K, as the generated classes will shoot an influx of superstars and teams will begin to be unable to pay good players, leaving All-Star 80+ overall players to rot in free agency for years at a time. Midway through season 3, however, 3 70 ovrs were in FA's, and a whole lot of mid to high 60's veterans. Nothing egregious though, perfectly acceptable so far.

Class #3

Notes:

Players with 70+ 3pt rating: 7 of 150 (Better)

Players with 70+ Dunk rating: 5 of 150 (Once again, 4 of the 5 are the top 4 prospects.)

Big Men with 60+ Mid or 3pt: 0 of 150 (Highest is 56 on a "Raw Prospect" C)

The top 3 prospects lead every rating category. Complete balance spread across the class again, in the form of spread ratings. No great athletes with no shot, no skilled bigs, no pure shooters, Just the top 8 that are good at everything, then everyone else who are mediocre at everything. We'll see how they turn out.

End of Season 3:

Rookie of the year: SG Leonard McDaniel, rd 1 pick 2, 20.7 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 3.2 apg, .419% 3pt!

The rookie of the year, jumps from an 80 3pt starting rating to an outstanding 88 rating and becomes a dominating scorer in the West for Portland. I am excited again, to see this jump, however not too much seeing as he is not a specialist and I can attribute his good rating to being good overall, rather than carving out a niche.

Elsewhere in the league, I am beginning to eat my words. I am seeing players change their "playstyle" title. While most generated rookies have titles such as "Offensive Minded x" when they enter the league, they are changing. This year, I am seeing "Reliable playmaker", "Point Forward", "Athletic Finisher". League-wide, 3pt rating numbers are still pretty low.. with most generated players combined from all 3 classes holding mid to low 60's ratings. Another thing I noticed is the complete lack of defensive studs in any class. Thinking about it now, I can't remember, nor can I find any titles in relation to defense. LOTS of offensive skills in the draft.. I need more shot blockers and defenders.

Again, to give credit where it is due, I will say I am pleased to see that of the 3 classes thus far, only 1 player has exploded and became a superstar. Clippers PF Garry Moody, who holds the teams highest ovr at 90.

Class #4

Notes:

Players with 70+ 3pt rating: 4 of 150 (Including an "Offensive-Minded" Center!!! Yes!)

Players with 70+ Dunk rating: 6 of 150 (5 of the 6 are the top 5 prospects.)

Big Men with 60+ Mid or 3pt: 6 of 150 (Most I've seen!)

After 3 classes that had absolutely no talent in the big man department... All 5 top prospects are big men! (4 PF's, 1 C.) That is good to see. Some variation and a class with perimeter players ruling the classes. Unfortunatel, aside from the 70 3pt shooting C, (Who, to my positive surprise, has a much higher 3pt Tendency than the other, less skilled shooters..) are all basically the same aside from a few minor attribute differences. In fact, 3 of the Centers and the PF are all labeled "Offensive minded" wheras the last one is "Athletic Center". Fun to see initially and definitely unexpected, but still, not varied enough and too much alike to really fall in love with yet... Hopefully that changes as they progress. I will keep tabs on the 5 and find out.

PF, Ron Mullins "Offensive Minded 4"
C, Blake Cage "Offensive Minded Center"
C, Rasheed Caldwell "Athletic Center"
C, Walt Buford "Offensive Minded Center"
C, Owen Hamilton (My Fave, 70 3pt.) "Offensive Minded Center"

End of Season 4:

Rookie of the year: PF Ron Mullins, Rd 1 pick 3, 20.9 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 1.3 BLKpg

Well, I'll start with an amazing feat. The first ever 1st team All-Rookie squad to field 0 perimeter players.. Yeah, I can't make that up. If you're looking for the list of the All-Rookie 1st teamers, scroll up, they're the 5 bigs I want to keep an eye on. Nice.

The stats are cluttered with big men dominating this rookie class, which should balance out the lack of them we had in the 1st 3 DC's.

The titles of the bigs have changed, Although largely remain the same with a different twist.

PF, Ron Mullins "All-Around Power Forward"
C, Blake Cage "Low Post Star"
C, Rasheed Caldwell "Interior Defender"
C, Walt Buford "Low Post Star"
C, Owen Hamilton (My Fave, 70 3pt.) "Offensive Minded Center"

Nice work there, although the 5 still basically have the same ratings with a few expanding exceptions.

Around the league, 3pt ratings are slowly rising, however it isn't in a specialist role. Mostly, the generated players with high 3pt ratings are already good players in other areas and the 3pt rating is just an additionaly thing that came with progression. Overall it's much better than it used to be in the older 2K games. Before, no one really progressed significantly enough in shooting ratings and the league would eventually find it's way into a league that was all dunkers and slashers. One thing to note about this, though, is that those players that are becoming solid shooters are pretty much 75% PG's, 20% SG's and 5% other. There are very few Small Forwards that have become noticeable in the league, especially shooting the basketball. Hopefully that changes.

Oh yeah, and the MAGIC WON THE TILE! Woohoo! MagicUp! Even with me not touching them and sim GM's taking over, the Magic have managed to procure a roster containing 8 80+ ovr players.. and still maintain $32m in cap space. (not a trend, ORL is the only roster that looks this way. Glad to see inflation hasn't taken over quite yet.)

Frustratingly, 91 OVR Damian Lillard was able to sneak past the FA period without getting a contract... and wasn't signed until January. How annoying.

Midway through Season 5, inflated ratings ARE hitting home at this point, and in combination with the inflated ratings of rookies in the classes, are forcing solid veterans out of a job. About 20 70-74 ovr players are currently looking for work. However, they ARE technically the worst players in the league, even at that rating. With teams prioritizing keep their draftees over LaMarcus Aldridge, it keeps him in FA's. *Note: It isn't just old guys, 24-28 year olds with mid 70s ratings are ignored as well. Again, not SUPER egregious, just a little bothersome. Still acceptable to me and I can fix a little further by knocking down Draft Quality even more.

Class #5

Notes:

Players with 70+ 3pt rating: 5 of 150 (3 out of the 5 top prospects.. Still need to see some specialists.)

Players with 70+ Dunk rating: 12 of 150 (Okay, stop. Again, all of these guys are the best players in the class. The best player should not mean the best dunker. The best athletes are often raw and not complete like these guys are.)

Big Men with 60+ Mid or 3pt: 1 of 150 (80 OVR Center. Only that hight because he's already a stud. Lame.)

Alright. Holy crap. This class is bringing us an 87 OVR PF from Mexico. He is awesome at nearly every category as you would expect from an 87 OVR, but is especially adept at rebounding. His title "Athletic Glass Cleaner" is new to me and, while it took an 87 ovr rookie to get it, is good to see on rookies. Surprising to me, he can't shoot, so that is an anomoly in me "good at one thing, good at everything" argument. (Which still holds true to 80% of the rest of the class.) This 6'11, 270 lb PF is going to destroy this league. Even LBJ didn't have that high of a rating his rookie year. perhaps it's a little to high, as has most of the classes, even on 25 quality.

I also found a "Raw Point Forward" with B potential that actually has a dissernable skill set.. So far it seems like these guys DO exist after all, however they are definitely not as prioritive or abundant as I believe they should be.

End of Season 5:

Rookie of the year: PF Sergio Del Rosario, rd 1 pick 1, 22.0 ppg, 10.0 rpg, 2.0 blkpg, .541% fg's.

At the end of the 5 year focus period, I can say for sure that I am not completely misguided -- only slightly.

I apologize to bitterguy if I insulted him and I am happy to report that I didn't give 2K15's new system a chance and I admit to only focusing on the inital ratings and not paying attention to progression. Now 20 years in after a ton of time simulating seasons, I have a league full of generated players.

League wide, ratings are not as inflated as I thought, but again, the best 3 point shooters are the best players in the league, the role players are not the type of shooters they should be. I would be happier if that number, as well as other types of specialists were higher.

PROS:

• Some Players DO Develop Specific Skillsets
• Rating Inflation can be avoided with the correct roster file and "Draft Class Quality" Slider value
• Centers and Power Forwards are given more respect than in the past
• There is SOME variation in players as they develop
• Players become more than numbers; have attained some likeability

CAN BE IMPROVED:

• Players still look ridiculous; Unrealistic Accessories and Jersey #'s
• Need more specialists and role players
• The Top Players need much more variation; largely all the same; shouldn't all be great dunkers
• Most players that develop jump shots are PG's; Need more SG, SF, and PF shooters
• Slightly lower the potentials league wide; still a little high

Thanks to all that read this long post. It opened my eyes a bit and I think I can change my initial thoughts of the classes now, although a good portion of my inital complaints still exist...

The generated classes are serviceable, and have been vastly improved from years past.

The fictional classes created by the Sim-World team still ultimately reign supreme vs the generated counterparts, but take absolutely forever to make and are a strain on really good people that should be able to enjoy the game without having to spend hours looking at menus. They are still not at a level I would deem ideal, but then again, who am I? I understand that it isn't as easy as I am making it seem, but a great deal of attention into the very thing that makes the franchises be able to go incredibly deep into the future would be amazing. I know 2K is capable of doing them better and I truly believe Bitterguy and his staff will continue to improve.

[CaseIH]

Quote: Originally Posted by JA Money14

I usually don't make threads in here, as I don't want to clutter it even further past the threads that already do that. I do feel, though, that this issue holds enough weight that a logical, real, interesting discussion can and should be held about it. As a few of you may be aware, I am a roster/slider/class editor, so I have a few years of experience dealing with this annoyance. For pretty much forever, the generated draft classes have been the same thing. They are my biggest issues with the game and pretty much the one that holds me back from playing the game like I used to. As you spend hours and hours investing in a roster and sliders that will give you the perfect gameplay, if you're like me, you immediately want to take your creation into the games franchise mode. (Whether it be MyLeague or MyGM, the issue is blatantly obvious in both cases... Even MyCareer, later years along.) However, I can't enjoy it. I can play that first year and be astonished at the gorgeous graphics and stunningly realistic gameplay, but in the back of my mind, I know that past the 1st year, the game is going to progressively get worse and worse. I am not, and cannot play MyTeam, MyPark, or any online stuff anymore. My Sim-World brothers, Dreece, CWSapp, BlindsideNZ, and Ronyell, work their selfs to sleep deprivation to fix this issue, and what they have done far supercedes anything I could have imagined, greatly increasing the depth of franchises, which is what the game mode is supposed to be all about. But those guys can only do so much. I am forced to wait until they post another incredible class, and 2K just picks up dust while that happens. 2K advertised to me that you could play 80 years, but you can't. Sure, they dressed it up very nice and gave the classes some life, this year... which is great... but all they did was wrap a terrible, cheap gift into some expensive wrapping paper. This is the longest I have gone without playing the storied basketball franchise I have enjoyed for 12+ years. The actual issues are obvious (to me) and stick out like a sore thumb in the form of a lack of diverse players, broken ratings, illogical tendencies and just stupid player formation. I hate to name drop in this forum, but the other companies football game isn't perfect, but they have the generated classes done very well. It is something I can look forward to in the offseason! Players have no real consistency in ratings. In a common generated class, there are no such things as specialists: Unless a guy is a top-5 pick, they will not be good at anything. They will just be horribly mediocre in everything. I have never seen a stretch 4 or 5 in this games classes. Ever. 3pt ratings are terrible deflated, again, with the best shooters only being lottery picks, something that is clearly not realistic. The best guys will typically be slashers and athletic finishers and that's about it. Everything is scaled by OVR, not by actual categories. The Tendencies are so far wrong it's crazy. I have NEVER fallen in love with a generated 2K player. It RUINS the game for me and many others that rely on the franchise modes. Asthetically speaking, the players are silly looking as well. The elbow pad and double wrist tape that are different colors, whilst wearing number 39. It totally ruins the immersion for me. 2K's generated draft classes for long-term association and career modes are easily the worst of any sim sports franchise on the market. It isn't close. I really think that us (HEAVY MINORITY) fanbase that looks at things like this that some feel are tedious, would greatly benefit and it would alleviate the stress on the sim draft class creators around the world. Thanks for the rant space. I love 2K and I need it back in the form of a long-term association. Help me, 2K, you're my only hope.

I agree, and I have always been someone who goes deep into Franchise/Association mode over the years, but with NBA2k its a joke, and I haven't even made it thru 1 full yr because of quality of this game since I cant even remember when, probably NBA2k8 if then even. By far the generated Draft Classes are the worst of any of the sports games made. They need to put forth a much better effort to make Association/career modes playable thruout the years in those modes. NBA2k devs worry more about presentation and the online modes for the casuals, rather than concentrate on making a top notch Association sadly.

[Shady Mike]

Quote: Originally Posted by JA Money14

I usually don't make threads in here, as I don't want to clutter it even further past the threads that already do that. I do feel, though, that this issue holds enough weight that a logical, real, interesting discussion can and should be held about it. As a few of you may be aware, I am a roster/slider/class editor, so I have a few years of experience dealing with this annoyance. For pretty much forever, the generated draft classes have been the same thing. They are my biggest issues with the game and pretty much the one that holds me back from playing the game like I used to. As you spend hours and hours investing in a roster and sliders that will give you the perfect gameplay, if you're like me, you immediately want to take your creation into the games franchise mode. (Whether it be MyLeague or MyGM, the issue is blatantly obvious in both cases... Even MyCareer, later years along.) However, I can't enjoy it. I can play that first year and be astonished at the gorgeous graphics and stunningly realistic gameplay, but in the back of my mind, I know that past the 1st year, the game is going to progressively get worse and worse. I am not, and cannot play MyTeam, MyPark, or any online stuff anymore. My Sim-World brothers, Dreece, CWSapp, BlindsideNZ, and Ronyell, work their selfs to sleep deprivation to fix this issue, and what they have done far supercedes anything I could have imagined, greatly increasing the depth of franchises, which is what the game mode is supposed to be all about. But those guys can only do so much. I am forced to wait until they post another incredible class, and 2K just picks up dust while that happens. 2K advertised to me that you could play 80 years, but you can't. Sure, they dressed it up very nice and gave the classes some life, this year... which is great... but all they did was wrap a terrible, cheap gift into some expensive wrapping paper. This is the longest I have gone without playing the storied basketball franchise I have enjoyed for 12+ years. The actual issues are obvious (to me) and stick out like a sore thumb in the form of a lack of diverse players, broken ratings, illogical tendencies and just stupid player formation. I hate to name drop in this forum, but the other companies football game isn't perfect, but they have the generated classes done very well. It is something I can look forward to in the offseason! Players have no real consistency in ratings. In a common generated class, there are no such things as specialists: Unless a guy is a top-5 pick, they will not be good at anything. They will just be horribly mediocre in everything. I have never seen a stretch 4 or 5 in this games classes. Ever. 3pt ratings are terrible deflated, again, with the best shooters only being lottery picks, something that is clearly not realistic. The best guys will typically be slashers and athletic finishers and that's about it. Everything is scaled by OVR, not by actual categories. The Tendencies are so far wrong it's crazy. I have NEVER fallen in love with a generated 2K player. It RUINS the game for me and many others that rely on the franchise modes. Asthetically speaking, the players are silly looking as well. The elbow pad and double wrist tape that are different colors, whilst wearing number 39. It totally ruins the immersion for me. 2K's generated draft classes for long-term association and career modes are easily the worst of any sim sports franchise on the market. It isn't close. I really think that us (HEAVY MINORITY) fanbase that looks at things like this that some feel are tedious, would greatly benefit and it would alleviate the stress on the sim draft class creators around the world. Thanks for the rant space. I love 2K and I need it back in the form of a long-term association. Help me, 2K, you're my only hope.

You are 100% right on the money with what I put in Red, but right after that you then follow it up with a slight over-exaggeration. To say that 2K has the worst generated draft classes of any simulation game is IMO incorrect. I think the draft classes are on par with other sports games, but there are 2 things that you need to understand. (And in reality probably already do understand)

1. Basketball in general is a much more specific game than many other sports...there aren't many other sports that ALLOW you to be successful at ONE position while having a totally different playstyle...for example

At PG you can be a Shooter/Penetrator/Pass First
At SG you can be a Sharpshooter/Slasher/Combo-Guard
At SF you can be a Athletic Wing/Point Forward/ 3&D
AT Pf you can be a Stretch four/High post Faceup/Low Post Star
At C you can be a Defensive Anchor/Aggressive rebounder/Shot blocker etc...

Heck we are even seeing point CENTERS in Bogut/Cousins/Noah! I saw Bogut bring the ball up on 4 different occasions 2 nights ago! Anyways...you get my point, in say the NFL really all you can be is a Pocket passer/mobile qb or a speed/possession WR and even then the attributes are STILL going to be fairly similar so in Madden all you have to do is give a QB a 88 or a 58 speed rating and that determines whether he is a pocket passer or scrambling qb.

Instead of saying it has the worst generated classes I would say that it has the least SERVICEABLE based on what the league needs and what type of players it needs to replace. So basically I'm saying NO the 2K generated draft classes don't go that in depth and im sure it's not because they don't WANT to, but (as a software engineering major myself) I'm sure it's extremely difficult to program a class to have X amount of pg/sg/sf/pf/C then Make X amount a Combo guard/sharpshooter/Point Forward/faceup four/Rim protector and THEN decide how many of them are going to be busts or not...idk, knowing what I know, right now I think that may be a ways in the future before we get a system like that...although I would like to see them move towards a system like that one day.

2. I don't think any other sport in the world has as high a failure rate as the NBA, I mean rookies are out of the league in 2 years sometimes...I mean I am dead serious I read somewhere that like 75% of the drafts end up not making it 10 years in the league or something like that. Take into account that they also have to determine potential ratings, and attributes and all that...idk

At the end of the day NBA 2K is a videogame, and I hate saying stuff like this because I love innovation and who knows with the millions that 2K makes what they are capable of for now, but honestly this is one of those things that we just have to chalk up as a limitation of a video game FOR NOW. I do think that this may be something that could be expanded upon in the future, but just trust me when I say randomly generated stuff is not as random as people like to think and it takes a lot of time and effort to make sure things even come out right (as in not having 7'2 pg's...)

[JA Money14]

Quote: Originally Posted by Shady Mike

You are 100% right on the money with what I put in Red, but right after that you then follow it up with a slight over-exaggeration. To say that 2K has the worst generated draft classes of any simulation game is IMO incorrect. I think the draft classes are on par with other sports games, but there are 2 things that you need to understand. (And in reality probably already do understand) 1. Basketball in general is a much more specific game than many other sports...there aren't many other sports that ALLOW you to be successful at ONE position while having a totally different playstyle...for example At PG you can be a Shooter/Penetrator/Pass First At SG you can be a Sharpshooter/Slasher/Combo-Guard At SF you can be a Athletic Wing/Point Forward/ 3&D AT Pf you can be a Stretch four/High post Faceup/Low Post Star At C you can be a Defensive Anchor/Aggressive rebounder/Shot blocker etc... Heck we are even seeing point CENTERS in Bogut/Cousins/Noah! I saw Bogut bring the ball up on 4 different occasions 2 nights ago! Anyways...you get my point, in say the NFL really all you can be is a Pocket passer/mobile qb or a speed/possession WR and even then the attributes are STILL going to be fairly similar so in Madden all you have to do is give a QB a 88 or a 58 speed rating and that determines whether he is a pocket passer or scrambling qb. Instead of saying it has the worst generated classes I would say that it has the least SERVICEABLE based on what the league needs and what type of players it needs to replace. So basically I'm saying NO the 2K generated draft classes don't go that in depth and im sure it's not because they don't WANT to, but (as a software engineering major myself) I'm sure it's extremely difficult to program a class to have X amount of pg/sg/sf/pf/C then Make X amount a Combo guard/sharpshooter/Point Forward/faceup four/Rim protector and THEN decide how many of them are going to be busts or not...idk, knowing what I know, right now I think that may be a ways in the future before we get a system like that...although I would like to see them move towards a system like that one day. 2. I don't think any other sport in the world has as high a failure rate as the NBA, I mean rookies are out of the league in 2 years sometimes...I mean I am dead serious I read somewhere that like 75% of the drafts end up not making it 10 years in the league or something like that. Take into account that they also have to determine potential ratings, and attributes and all that...idk At the end of the day NBA 2K is a videogame, and I hate saying stuff like this because I love innovation and who knows with the millions that 2K makes what they are capable of for now, but honestly this is one of those things that we just have to chalk up as a limitation of a video game FOR NOW. I do think that this may be something that could be expanded upon in the future, but just trust me when I say randomly generated stuff is not as random as people like to think and it takes a lot of time and effort to make sure things even come out right (as in not having 7'2 pg's...)

I'm not saying that they didn't try. I understand with all the complexities (that far supersede my understanding of video game programming) are tough to just fix with the press of a button.. But even you can agree, if you want to say it's a limitation, that maybe it is, but it could be much better.

As I mentioned, the exact same issues with draft classes in 2K15 are around in 2K11. They haven't touched the system at all or if they have, it has been minimal enough for someone like me, a loser that spends hours every season editing the bogus rookies, to notice.

I really find it annoying and redundant to keep doing that every season, though, you know? It kills the fun. I really need that to be improved and I will tell you first hand that I am a huge 2K supporter and usually give them the benefit of the doubt with things people attack them with.

I am not at all undermining how difficult it is to do all that.. But they aren't exactly a company with limited resources either, you know?

I just want 2K to make some changes to it and make rookies fun to play with and vary them a bit. I am maybe exaggerating with that quote a little bit, but I honestly think they are the worst.

The Show
NFL 2K
Madden
College Hoops 2K8
FIFA (Youth Players)
Pretty much any greenlight text-sim

All of those are better.. Some lightyears ahead. Again though, as an NBA crazy person, I understand the complexities of our game and all that goes into it. The dumb bar guy would just like you to think its tall guys throwing a ball in a hoop but I know how detail oriented players and teams are... Which is why I love basketball.

Edit: I also refuse to label them as "serviceable". I cannot play the game knowing the classes are in effect.

"Oh, the top guy is an 80 ovr SG with 99 dunk 89 layup and mid 60s shooting."

"oh, there is no lottery worthy center."

"Maybe I can get some guy that can only shoot or rebound or jump in the 2nd round.. Oh they don't exist."

Everything is on an overall scale and nothing is slotted. Either a guy id awesome at almost all the ratings (pertinent to his position) or he's mediocre and useless at everything. No specialists. I have never seen a PF or C with 70s or higher shooting ratings. Ever. Highest I've seen is like 65 mid... Only because he was the #1 guy and EVERYTHING was high.

[bitterguy]

Quote: Originally Posted by JA Money14

As I mentioned, the exact same issues with draft classes in 2K15 are around in 2K11. They haven't touched the system at all or if they have, it has been minimal enough for someone like me, a loser that spends hours every season editing the bogus rookies, to notice. ... The Show NFL 2K Madden College Hoops 2K8 FIFA (Youth Players) Pretty much any greenlight text-sim All of those are better.. Some lightyears ahead.

as the person most responsible for generating the draft classes, and coincidentally the one that wrote the code for generated players in choops as well, i'm super interested in how the generated players in choops were so much better than the players generated in nba 2k15, because i spent a good deal of time last year making the draft classes a lot more interesting and i guarantee you that it does a lot better job of providing variety and interesting prospects than choops ever did.

and fyi, having a discussion about draft classes without bringing up player progression is pointless. what a player's initial attributes are is somewhat interesting but what's really important is where that player's attributes are in 5-10 years, when he will be expected to be at the top of his game and maybe the league. what was james harden's rating when he was a rookie, compared to now? where was steph curry 5 years ago? rookies are almost never the best players at anything. they're rookies, they need years of playing to perfect their skills and develop specialties.

the player generation and progression work together in 2k15 to make by far the best looking league 20 seasons down the road that nba 2k has ever had and miles ahead of other games that you mention.

[Comduklakis]

My biggest issue with the generated classes continue to be the same as in year's past: low shooting percentages and horrible tendencies. For several years now I would sim for years just to see if LeBron broke the scoring mark or who turned into a 1st team all NBA guy. In that time though, year after year, I saw generated draft classes turning out guys who couldn't shoot and didn't get any better. And I saw way too many guys with ridiculously low shot tendencies. If I actually played a season I would have to edit touches, shot tendency, shooting ratings, etc. Way too many big stiffs that were 7 ft plus and pretty much just a body to set screens.

[JA Money14]

Quote: Originally Posted by bitterguy

as the person most responsible for generating the draft classes, and coincidentally the one that wrote the code for generated players in choops as well, i'm super interested in how the generated players in choops were so much better than the players generated in nba 2k15, because i spent a good deal of time last year making the draft classes a lot more interesting and i guarantee you that it does a lot better job of providing variety and interesting prospects than choops ever did. and fyi, having a discussion about draft classes without bringing up player progression is pointless. what a player's initial attributes are is somewhat interesting but what's really important is where that player's attributes are in 5-10 years, when he will be expected to be at the top of his game and maybe the league. what was james harden's rating when he was a rookie, compared to now? where was steph curry 5 years ago? rookies are almost never the best players at anything. they're rookies, they need years of playing to perfect their skills and develop specialties. the player generation and progression work together in 2k15 to make by far the best looking league 20 seasons down the road that nba 2k has ever had and miles ahead of other games that you mention.

This thread isn't meant as a slight or an insult (although it's easy to interpret it that way) and I salute you for the work you've done.As someone who has played and tested down the road for multiple games including (although far less than other years) 2K15, I can tell you that progression matters, but again it doesn't. There are still no role players in the league.

Guys don't come into the league great at everything and I never said they did. But coming out of College, players have a distinct strength and variation to their games that I haven't seen in 2K. The system hasn't been noticeably altered enough to the point that all the old issues still exist.

There aren't guys that can shoot lights out, yet remain unathletic (Jimmer) or guys that aren't really skilled but become awesome rebounders. (Faried, DJ)

Everything seems to inflate at the same time and make every player and all-around player rather than varied. Ignoring all of the gross asthetics, because after all, they are only visually pleasing which isn't a huge problem, the players lack distinction.

You mentioned that players change drastically from their rookie year, but the initial stats are pivotal in explaining how he will progress. At it's current state a 64 OVR PF with huge potential will have no use his first few seasons then will just be good at everything. Rather than having inflated Dunk and Layup ratings, I would like to see more variation and less super super stars in the draft. The top player is ALWAYS the same.

Perimeter based -- Bad shooter -- great slasher -- average at everything else with huge potential. Bigs are disrespected and very rarely become serviceable in lieu of the players they are meant to replace.

Speaking of shooting... That's another issue I have with the game there are very few if any players with useful shooting ratings in the game. I honestly don't think real entire classes of NBA Rookies come into the league without at least some of them having a keen ability to shoot. You know those guys exist and I shouldn't have to wait 5 or 10 years for the 1st draft class to be able to shoot the ball decently.

Perhaps I haven't done enough testing in game. When I get home, I will post my findings on here and run with 20 years of simulated classes.

I hope you don't feel like I personally attacked you in any way. That's not what the intention was. I just wanted to point out my main issue with an otherwise brilliant game.. One that keeps me fro. Enjoying it.

[Shady Mike]

Quote: Originally Posted by JA Money14

This thread isn't meant as a slight or an insult (although it's easy to interpret it that way) and I salute you for the work you've done.As someone who has played and tested down the road for multiple games including (although far less than other years) 2K15, I can tell you that progression matters, but again it doesn't. There are still no role players in the league. Guys don't come into the league great at everything and I never said they did. But coming out of College, players have a distinct strength and variation to their games that I haven't seen in 2K. The system hasn't been noticeably altered enough to the point that all the old issues still exist. There aren't guys that can shoot lights out, yet remain unathletic (Jimmer) or guys that aren't really skilled but become awesome rebounders. (Faried, DJ) Everything seems to inflate at the same time and make every player and all-around player rather than varied. Ignoring all of the gross asthetics, because after all, they are only visually pleasing which isn't a huge problem, the players lack distinction. You mentioned that players change drastically from their rookie year, but the initial stats are pivotal in explaining how he will progress. At it's current state a 64 OVR PF with huge potential will have no use his first few seasons then will just be good at everything. Rather than having inflated Dunk and Layup ratings, I would like to see more variation and less super super stars in the draft. The top player is ALWAYS the same. Perimeter based -- Bad shooter -- great slasher -- average at everything else with huge potential. Bigs are disrespected and very rarely become serviceable in lieu of the players they are meant to replace. Perhaps I haven't done enough testing in game. When I get home, I will post my findings on here and run with 20 years of simulated classes. I hope you don't feel like I personally attacked you in any way. That's not what the intention was. I just wanted to point out my main issue with an otherwise brilliant game.. One that keeps me fro. Enjoying it.

Look forward to see what you come up with! I look forward to seeing how the top 20 players vary in skill! I hope you share your results!