NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

[ChaseB]

Quote: Originally Posted by tril

as far as the turbo defender, its simple. once the defender is out of position, or over commits on defense, the offensive ai should break out of set offense and drive to the hoop or take the open shot. An aggressive offensive player always takes what the defnse gives them. This isnt properly reflected in the game-play. There are more than enough times when the user defender gets lost and the AI controlled player does not take advantage. the end result to this, would most likely be that users would be forced to play more controlled and sim style defense. this should be applicable across the board. A reach in foul should always be a reach in, a blocking foul should always be a blocking foul. On offense, a player that turbos throughout the game should be equivalent to player lowering their shoulder and driving, which then should increase the chances of it being an offensive foul.

The only thing I would say in response to the type of binary (yes/no) stuff you're talking about here would be tough to manage in terms of X always being a blocking call etc. I do think more can be done to keep "turbo spammers" in check, and charging calls is certainly an aspect to it, but charges have been really pulled back over the years in this game because people complained a lot about them (though off-ball, charges still work oddly well in certain modes). I think what was happening with charges in old games is that even when you weren't using turbo you would still be rung up on charging calls, and that could be infuriating.

But I really like the first part talking about choosing what type of on-ball defense you choose to take and being punished accordingly. That I agree with and, again, is why I point out the turbo jumping on defense etc. as a crutch at times.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nevertheles109

Well written, Chase. I'll partake Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it? I'm okay with it IF the user is running an set offense (aka a play from playbook, freelance offense, utilizing proper spacing within the natural flow of his offense ect.) I'm not okay with it if he just choosing to shoot that shot and I see it coming a mile away. I do agree with some of your assessment regarding hand up defense though but if Kobe was closer and had a hand in his face, that defense is effective in real life depending on the proximity. 2K needs to simulate the distance on hands up defense, especially mid-range as some people are barely effected with a slight contest in the mid-range area (Aldridge, Lebron, Melo, Kawhi, Dirk, Kobe back in the day, ect.)

I really like something you touched on here near the end. I could be wrong, but yes, it does feel like everyone has those "contested shot" animations when shooting, when really they aren't always applicable to everyone. Now, guys like Dirk have those signature fades in the post that don't get contested like this, but even his jumper Dirk is just rising up pretty much no matter the person that's there.

And I wasn't saying Kobe's defense in that GIF wasn't viable, just that contesting even at close range isn't some cure-all.

Quote: Originally Posted by Nevertheles109

Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes? Yes and no. For the rare specimens aka Steph, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie ect. It should be a LITTLE more effective but for most players it is fine where it remains. They patched stepbacks and leaning jumpers making them a little more effective and it was a welcome change... Imagine if you had Kyle Korver iso on you and pull a step-back three? That's where that rabbit hole would lead us to; Players not playing to their true strengths and users abusing attributes.

The caveats here I agree with, and like with everything, it would have to be built around making players stand out who do these things. To me though, It just feels like pretty much no guards can hit these shots at all, while guys like the Haywards and some other players you mentioned need to be able to hit this a bit more. But yeah, no Korver stepback 3s (especially because right now he's a bit of a husk of his former self).

Quote: Originally Posted by Nevertheles109

My tangent for you to ponder Chase. The video you posted along your first post in this thread showed a stationary three by Steph. Yes, we all know he's an assassin from three but in my opinion there's always a rhythm or flow to most of the three's he shoots in real life. If you are simply pressing a button with no rhythm, timing or concept of that little bit of space you need in real life, do you think that shot should go in? The reason I ask is because in my opinion 2K does a pretty good job of rewarding those mechanics I mentioned above as long as you create a bit of space, run a good play and of course time the top of the release correctly. I've made crazy contested shots against my friends and they try the same without any rhyme or reason behind their shots and it's damn near an air-ball. Similar shots but vastly different methods to our madness yields very different results. Contested shots do need work but if its more or less just tapping a button because the percentage indicates that shot goes in one out of three times, what are we really get ourselves into? If you got the shot the right way by all means let the percentages play their part. If not, in my opinion, ignorant basketball should never be rewarded, regardless of the percentages.

Well, I think as you touched on earlier (and I have in old articles) is that we need to take Steph out of the equation. Because, yes, I do think he would have no issue taking and making that shot. He takes plenty of good shots, but he also takes plenty of out-of-rhythm, "random room" video game shots as well that go in as well.

As for the overall point though, I do think 2K seems to award those with crisper ball movement and have some semblance of flow to their dribble moves before rising up to shoot. That being said, I'm not sure if that's based on badges, if it's just a placebo effect, or there's more going on than we know about.

But your final point is one I made in the conclusion of the article I think in terms of not just rewarding turbo spam just because the final shot was only semi-contested. At the same time, we do have to remember that in reality most of the "sim" people probably call more plays than actually are called in a NBA game. Teams are not running 20 elevator sets in a game etc. They'll have base sets and motion, but a coach holding up a finger and saying what to run is more minimal at times than perhaps we realize. So deciding what factors into running something with "flow" vs. just jacking it up is a tricky thing to split up. Anyway, yeah, my intent is not to say heavily contested shots and the like should go in 30 percent of the time "just cause" which is why I tried to point out various elements that could be tweaked to help push folks towards both taking better jumpers and feeling as if the rewards will come more often.

[Nevertheles109]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChaseB

The only thing I would say in response to the type of binary (yes/no) stuff you're talking about here would be tough to manage in terms of X always being a blocking call etc. I do think more can be done to keep "turbo spammers" in check, and charging calls is certainly an aspect to it, but charges have been really pulled back over the years in this game because people complained a lot about them (though off-ball, charges still work oddly well in certain modes). I think what was happening with charges in old games is that even when you weren't using turbo you would still be rung up on charging calls, and that could be infuriating. But I really like the first part talking about choosing what type of on-ball defense you choose to take and being punished accordingly. That I agree with and, again, is why I point out the turbo jumping on defense etc. as a crutch at times. I really like something you touched on here near the end. I could be wrong, but yes, it does feel like everyone has those "contested shot" animations when shooting, when really they aren't always applicable to everyone. Now, guys like Dirk have those signature fades in the post that don't get contested like this, but even his jumper Dirk is just rising up pretty much no matter the person that's there. And I wasn't saying Kobe's defense in that GIF wasn't viable, just that contesting even at close range isn't some cure-all. The caveats here I agree with, and like with everything, it would have to be built around making players stand out who do these things. To me though, It just feels like pretty much no guards can hit these shots at all, while guys like the Haywards and some other players you mentioned need to be able to hit this a bit more. But yeah, no Korver stepback 3s (especially because right now he's a bit of a husk of his former self). Well, I think as you touched on earlier (and I have in old articles) is that we need to take Steph out of the equation. Because, yes, I do think he would have no issue taking and making that shot. He takes plenty of good shots, but he also takes plenty of out-of-rhythm, "random room" video game shots as well that go in as well. As for the overall point though, I do think 2K seems to award those with crisper ball movement and have some semblance of flow to their dribble moves before rising up to shoot. That being said, I'm not sure if that's based on badges, if it's just a placebo effect, or there's more going on than we know about. But your final point is one I made in the conclusion of the article I think in terms of not just rewarding turbo spam just because the final shot was only semi-contested. At the same time, we do have to remember that in reality most of the "sim" people probably call more plays than actually are called in a NBA game. Teams are not running 20 elevator sets in a game etc. They'll have base sets and motion, but a coach holding up a finger and saying what to run is more minimal at times than perhaps we realize. So deciding what factors into running something with "flow" vs. just jacking it up is a tricky thing to split up. Anyway, yeah, my intent is not to say heavily contested shots and the like should go in 30 percent of the time "just cause" which is why I tried to point out various elements that could be tweaked to help push folks towards both taking better jumpers and feeling as if the rewards will come more often.

Aye man I'd have a rebuttal but I have none. I'm in agreement that the contested shots need work but I don't want it changed too much.

It's a hard balance to achieve but threads like this are great to push the game to the next level.

Here's a thought and it may already be in the game: what do you think about contested shot attributes based on data for mid-range, close and three? That way Steph plays like Steph and Melo can rise up with his signature triple threat mid-range J.

Now that individualizes contested shot makes and misses and also a step-back attribute for make & miss would be a thought, if it already isn't in the game.

[videlsports]

I think if you catch the d off Guard with a moving dribble combo or a hesi- pull up then percentages should be a little higher depending on the player. 3 point shots are pretty good

[nova91]

2K cant figure out whats a good shot contest and what is not coupled with the ball being selectively live, shot contests are not good at all. You can really see this when you play MC. Opposing CPU defenders just have to be somewhat in the area and you see your teammates blow layups, dunks, and brick fairly easy jumpers. On the other hand since 2K decided to nerf user AI shot contests to encourage on ball defense in h2h the CPU drains heavily contested jumpers or AI defenders just stand there until a shot is released and then contest or don't contest at all.