NBA 2K16: The Contested Shot Conundrum (Part 2)

[dema]

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot.
So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

[A6_Foul_Out]

Quote: Originally Posted by dema

I think the reason they currently can't have contested jumpers going in at a realistic percentage is that it would be too easy to just jack them up all game and still have a decent offence. This is because what 2k doesn't really simulate is the footwork of a player before his shot. That means coming off screens, pulling up for shots off the dribble etc, Included in that equation should be the pass that a player gets as well, what angle his receiving it at and how accurate is it. In the NBA you can see there are some players who are much better at getting into their shot in various situations that other players would probably put up an awkward shot. So what i'm saying pretty much is the bit before the actual shot isn't simulated well. (probably because it would hard for 2k to do) But making that pre-shot part of the game skill based on the in game player and the user would make hitting a contested jumper seem less "unrealistic", and it can't just be under the hood calculations, the game has to show it. Because then the player knows "oh, he got that in because he set his feet right, the pass was straight to his chest and he followed through and released above the defender".

This is what dimer and pass accuracy stats are supposed to be good for.

[dema]

Quote: Originally Posted by A6_Foul_Out

This is what dimer and pass accuracy stats are supposed to be good for.

Yeh but i think often that stuff happens without any visual representation, if you've got a really bad passer you get the tough catch animation but otherwise its pretty hard to tell that it was good pass that let the guy get straight into his shot. Also footwork still isn't really apart of the game shooting wise.

[JoFri]

absolutely agree with this writeup. this stmt is just so well made, "but if we want “sim-oriented” games, we also have to accept that "perfect" defense can still be trumped at times." the shooting % having one out of 3 with "fake" contest by defenders is fine imo. for real fake contest, if i can propose using the jump button, should lower the success rate. why? its a choice to make. when playing defense irl, i pick my poise whether to jump to try blocking the shot or just raise my hand. in video gaming if i choose to jump contest bcos i want to play better defense, then i need to be mentally prepared for jump ball fakes foul. i need to be smarter when playing defense. having hand raise using the right stick or like what u illustrated running towards the shooter should have less effect to alter the success rate of making that shot.

[2_headedmonster]

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read.

-One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning.

- There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way.

- I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler.
In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

[Oldhead80]

Quote: Originally Posted by 2_headedmonster

Great write up man. Enjoyed the read. -One thing i found odd, is when you talked about the contested shots you mentioned how the shots go in at a 30% clip, maybe less above the arch ( sub 30%), then rounded the percentage up to 33%. I didn't get that reasoning. - There should definitely be shooting fouls for running into shooters, great point there, i've always felt that way. - I like how you mentioned the defensive give and take. I feel contested shots and the mid-range game are heavily effected by the backwards implementation of on-ball defense currently in 2k. The game rewards defenders for getting far too close with bumping animations, Mario runs and by forcing hesitations on the ball-handler. In addition, turning, planting and their effects on elevation when contesting shots aren't done well, so as a result created space isnt as “true” as it is in real life. For example Look at the way Hibbert moved when trying to contain McCollum off the pick and roll in your gif and how 2k represents that and you will see a stark contrast. 2k still has warping, sliding, defenders going forward rather than giving ground and an over-use of their high-speed, crab-shuffle defensive movement rather than proper foot-work. All these advantages afforded to the defense lead to the over use of the Limit Perimeter IMO.

One of the big reasons why the footwork and overall defensive posture on defense needs to be completely redone. This hunchback, crouched posture with big steps not only looks ridiculous but it's not a representation of the movement and quick footwork NBA players use on defense.

[Baebae32]

Exactly. Defender in 2K arent capable of the short backwards strides necessary to contain the ball so they have to overdo the bumping (which is a foul every single time in the NBA)

[Nevertheles109]

Well written, Chase. I'll partake

Community Question: If the shot in the GIF above went in one out of three times in NBA 2K (assuming you’re using a viable 3-point shooter), would you be okay with it?

I'm okay with it IF the user is running an set offense (aka a play from playbook, freelance offense, utilizing proper spacing within the natural flow of his offense ect.) I'm not okay with it if he just choosing to shoot that shot and I see it coming a mile away. I do agree with some of your assessment regarding hand up defense though but if Kobe was closer and had a hand in his face, that defense is effective in real life depending on the proximity. 2K needs to simulate the distance on hands up defense, especially mid-range as some people are barely effected with a slight contest in the mid-range area (Aldridge, Lebron, Melo, Kawhi, Dirk, Kobe back in the day, ect.)

Community Question: With that in mind, do you think you come anywhere close to a third of your shots coming from mid-range in your average NBA 2K game?

Yes. But I run a lot of plays to get my shots. I think 2K did a fine job of simulating the mid-range game upon release but the masses complained, and slowly but surely we have a slightly different game with the mid-range game being a lost art again. Even so, the contested mid-range needs to go in more. Even upon release the hand-up contest from mid was too effective (Aka pivot, face-up, jab-step and shoot is almost non-existent) when some players are very good from the elbow in those situations.

Community Question: Would you like to see more stepback jumpers and leaning jumpers end in successful makes?

Yes and no. For the rare specimens aka Steph, Harden, Lillard, Kyrie ect. It should be a LITTLE more effective but for most players it is fine where it remains. They patched stepbacks and leaning jumpers making them a little more effective and it was a welcome change... Imagine if you had Kyle Korver iso on you and pull a step-back three? That's where that rabbit hole would lead us to; Players not playing to their true strengths and users abusing attributes.

Community Question: Do you think there’s an A-minus to D-minus difference in these shots just because Steph is leaning in one, while sprinting and coming to a stop in the other?


A- to C+ difference, in my opinion. The shot grade was drastically lower because of what you stated but for such an elite moving three-point shooter, arguably the best ever as it stands, it shouldn't be that drastic. For anyone else, hell yeah. But at this point Steph almost needs his own unique shot grades which would cause trillions of cheese moments with the right user playing with him.


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My tangent for you to ponder Chase. The video you posted along your first post in this thread showed a stationary three by Steph. Yes, we all know he's an assassin from three but in my opinion there's always a rhythm or flow to most of the three's he shoots in real life. If you are simply pressing a button with no rhythm, timing or concept of that little bit of space you need in real life, do you think that shot should go in?

The reason I ask is because in my opinion 2K does a pretty good job of rewarding those mechanics I mentioned above as long as you create a bit of space, run a good play and of course time the top of the release correctly. I've made crazy contested shots against my friends and they try the same without any rhyme or reason behind their shots and it's damn near an air-ball. Similar shots but vastly different methods to our madness yields very different results.

Contested shots do need work but if its more or less just tapping a button because the percentage indicates that shot goes in one out of three times, what are we really get ourselves into? If you got the shot the right way by all means let the percentages play their part. If not, in my opinion, ignorant basketball should never be rewarded, regardless of the percentages.