NBA 2K16 Player Ratings & Screenshots - Day Five: Morrow, Johnson, Turner & More

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trackball

10char

2000 Centers - Just 5 years after 95 (and well before the defensive rule changes of this era).

2000 EAST
Pacers (56): Rik Smits (17.3), Sam Perkins (12.1)
Heat (52): Alonzo Mourning (25.8), Otis Thorpe (11.1)
Knicks (50): Patrick Ewing (16.9), Marcus Camby (19.0)
Hornets (49): Elden Campbell (14.6), Brad Miller (18.9)
Sixers (49): Theo Ratliff (16.7), Matt Geiger (13.9)
Raptors (45): Antonio Davis (15.1), Kevin Willis (12.3)
Pistons (42): Christian Laettner (14.8), Mikki Moore (19.6)
Bucks (42): Ervin Johnson (12.7), Scott Williams (15.6)
Magic (41): John Amaechi (13.2), Michael Doleac (13.3)
Celtics (35): Vitaly Potapenko (13.8), Tony Battie (15.1)
Cavaliers (32): Mark Bryant (8.9), Andrew DeClercq (11.4)
Nets (31): Jim McIlvaine (10.0)
Wizards (29): Jahidi White (15.7), Issac Austin (10.2)
Hawks (28): Dikembe Mutombo (19.4), Lorenzen Wright (13.9)
Bulls (17): Dickey Simpkins (5.5), Will Perdue (6.6), Chris Anstey (15.1)

2000 WEST
Lakers (67): Shaquille O'Neal (30.6), Travis Knight (9.5)
Blazers (59): Arvydas Sabonis (20.3), Jermaine O'Neal (13.3)
Jazz (55): Olden Polynice (10.4), Greg Ostertag (13.5)
Spurs (53): David Robinson (24.6)
Suns (53): Luc Longley (8.8), Oliver Miller (15.6)
Wolves (50): Rasho Nesterovic (11.0), Dean Garrett (9.0)
Sonics (45): Vin Baker (14.0), Jelani McCoy (13.2)
Kings (44): Vlade Divac (18.0), Scot Pollard (15.8)
Mavericks (40): Shawn Bradley (17.0), Sean Rooks (11.8)
Nuggets (35): Raef LaFrentz (16.3)
Rockets (34): Hakeem Olajuwon (16.7), Kelvin Cato (15.9)
Grizzlies (22): Bryant Reeves (10.6), Cherokee Parks (10.9)
Warriors (19): Adonal Foyle (12.3), Erick Dampier (9.6)
Clippers (15): Michael Olowokandi (10.4), Keith Closs (14.1)

While both leagues were top-heavy, the notable difference between 95 and 00 is that quality backups started popping up. We were introduced to Marcus Camby, a running/dunking center who didn't need to post up to have an impact. Teams would go on to utilize this once unique mold of center.

There was still plenty of trash to go around. Jason Smith (12.0 PER) was the worst starting center in the league last season and there were 8 teams with a starter worse than that in 2000 (nearly 1/3 of the league!).


I do realize it takes more than factual evidence to dispel myths that have been drummed into the heads of sheeple over an extended period of time.

Keep the spit coming.

[Mauer4MVP]

Quote: Originally Posted by 8KB24

Because using only PER is the right way to go regarding player evaluation. I always respect what Rashidi has to say but this is...idk man

I think PER is pretty useless as well, but you can just look at the names themselves. In 95, 1-6 would still be 1-6 today most likely.

After that, it's today by a pretty wide margin.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mauer4MVP

I think PER is pretty useless as well, but you can just look at the names themselves. In 95, 1-6 would still be 1-6 today most likely. After that, it's today by a pretty wide margin.

I would contend that offensively Ewing/Zo would not be as effective today due to their poor passing ability. Back then a passer like Vlade Divac was abnormal for the center position, but now a post player can't succeed unless they have that level of touch/vision.

Post players had a ton of time/space/physicality to work with 20 years ago that they simply don't enjoy anymore.

Someone like Andrew Bogut is a great, subtle example. A low usage player in a dynamite offense who averages 2.7 APG in only 24 MPG despite his limited number of touches/possessions.

1995 A/T Ratio
1.60 Vlade Divac (20 USG%)
1.07 Hakeem Olajuwon (32 USG%)
0.82 Patrick Ewing (31 USG%)
0.46 Alonzo Mourning (26 USG%)
0.25 Felton Spencer (17 USG%)

2015 A/T Ratio
2.44 Al Horford (22 USG%)
1.74 Marc Gasol (25 USG%)
1.69 Andrew Bogut (13 USG%)
0.98 Rudy Gobert (14 USG%)
0.80 Tyson Chandler (13 USG%)

Without going too deep or crazy, it goes without saying that if players like Ewing struggled with traps/doubles back then that garbage stiffs like Spencer (who STARTED for a 60 win team) would not be able to handle today's speed/pressure (which is quantifiably why those players no longer exist).

Conversely, as I've previously expressed, I likewise have no doubts that Marc Gasol would thrive in a less hostile post-environment.

[Mauer4MVP]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

I would contend that offensively Ewing/Zo would not be as effective today due to their poor passing ability. Back then a passer like Vlade Divac was abnormal for the center position, but now a post player can't succeed unless they have that level of touch/vision. Post players had a ton of time/space/physicality to work with 20 years ago that they simply don't enjoy anymore. Someone like Andrew Bogut is a great, subtle example. A low usage player in a dynamite offense who averages 2.7 APG in only 24 MPG despite his limited number of touches/possessions. 1995 A/T Ratio 1.60 Vlade Divac (20 USG%) 1.07 Hakeem Olajuwon (32 USG%) 0.82 Patrick Ewing (31 USG%) 0.46 Alonzo Mourning (26 USG%) 0.25 Felton Spencer (17 USG%) 2015 A/T Ratio 2.44 Al Horford (22 USG%) 1.74 Marc Gasol (25 USG%) 1.69 Andrew Bogut (13 USG%) 0.98 Rudy Gobert (14 USG%) 0.80 Tyson Chandler (13 USG%) Without going too deep or crazy, it goes without saying that if players like Ewing struggled with traps/doubles back then that garbage stiffs like Spencer (who STARTED for a 60 win team) would not be able to handle today's speed/pressure (which is quantifiably why those players no longer exist). Conversely, as I've previously expressed, I likewise have no doubts that Marc Gasol would thrive in a less hostile post-environment.

I think they'd still have tremendous value as rim protectors. That's also the tough thing when comparing players in completely different eras. Like you said, they may struggle with double teams because of their passing because of the different play styles and schemes. Would they have developed those skills had they been born 15-20 years later?

Anyways, we're completely on the same page. I always bring up the fact that I think the center position is deeper than ever and get laughed out of the room usually because people just love thinking of Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing, Zo, etc.

[8KB24]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

Would you care to use other means to discuss the skill/ability/effectiveness of Jon Koncak versus Kosta Koufos in an expeditious manner?

Using PER to compare and evaluate players is like using how good of an *** a girls has to evaluate if she's wife material.

You gotta have eye test, context, all possible stats to compare players. You can't just use PER and say 'brah, Iggy is worse player than Green by 4 PER points'. It's just wrong.

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by 8KB24

Using PER to compare and evaluate players is like using how good of an *** a girls has to evaluate if she's wife material.

That is pretty erroneous given that...

Quote:

You gotta have eye test, context, all possible stats to compare players. You can't just use PER and say 'brah, Iggy is worse player than Green by 4 PER points'. It's just wrong.

....we have all of that available, and none of it really diminishes anything I posted.

You can make snide remarks and then try to compare players that play two different positions all you want.
Jon Koncak, Felton Spencer, etc (your average 90s center) were bad via eye test, context, and all possible stats.

PER isn't the end all-be-all, and never has been intended to, but for the intents and purposes of this discussion (which involves centers, not low-usage defensive wings), it's close enough.

[8KB24]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rashidi

That is pretty erroneous given that... ....we have all of that available, and none of it really diminishes anything I posted. You can make snide remarks and then try to compare players that play two different positions all you want. Jon Koncak, Felton Spencer, etc (your average 90s center) were bad via eye test, context, and all possible stats. PER isn't the end all-be-all, and never has been intended to, but for the intents and purposes of this discussion (which involves centers, not low-usage defensive wings), it's close enough.

Why don't you include VORP, BPM, OWS, DWS, WS/48 and other statistics?
Lemme give you one example.

Gasol brothers. Both centers for their teams. Pau has better PER but is he a better player? Nope. Marc is miles better at VORP, DWS, BPM etc except at ws/48 which Pau has marginal advantage. Marc also is better on defense and Pau has marginal advantage on offense (eye test + stats)

Also, how is comparing Iggy(48% at SG, 51 at SF) and Green(54% at SG, 43 at SF) comparing players that play different positions? Both are wings and both have comparable USG% (18.7 compared to Green's 17.1)

[Real2KInsider]

Quote: Originally Posted by 8KB24

Why don't you include VORP, BPM, OWS, DWS, WS/48 and other statistics?

1. Time.
2. This is a forum.
3. Why don't you include them? Let me know how far you get.
4. It's not necessary. Why not?

Quote:

Gasol brothers. Both centers for their teams. Pau has better PER but is he a better player? Nope. Marc is miles better at VORP, DWS, BPM etc except at ws/48 which Pau has marginal advantage. Marc also is better on defense and Pau has marginal advantage on offense (eye test + stats)

You are comparing two players and I am comparing an entire league. Significant difference in application with regard to a standardized rating.

Nitpicking which Gasol is better than the other is not the point - they are pretty clearly top players in the league relative to everyone else. It does nothing to disprove that centers are significantly more effective than they were 20 years ago.

A ball park figure will suffice when comparing 400 player leagues, and PER is certainly that.