Donny Moore, the 'Madden Ratings Czar', Leaving EA

[capa]

Great analysis and work DCEBB.

But you are correct. It will be a tough sell to get Madden to change the way their engine works in all their algorithms for individual player performance on the field. Not that it is a huge undertaking if designed and approached correctly...just that it will be a tough sell to get them to take this on I think.

They have an engine that "works" (in their opinion) with the current ratings system. We all know it is severely flawed and not realistic at all. But it works. Convincing them that there needs be such a huge design change will be a challenge.

I hope you can pull it off because this is the only way we will get the game finely tuned. It can't and won't happen with sliders no matter how they tweak them. I have always believed that the path to realism on the field is in the player ratings...for ALL sports games.

C

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by MustangLife03

They definately need to update elusiveness to how the big scouters like pro football focus and the others do. Since madden throws elusiveness with how often/good they are at using juke/spin plus slippery. But pro football focus rates elusiveness on breaking out of tackles exclusively. Eddie lacey, jonathon stewart, lynch, mccoy, are the top most elusive guys from 2014 according to pff. Head fake needs to be added by juke and spin, head fake is real and happens.

I agree that there is a better way to rate the ELU attribute, but PFF is not it. They are not scouts. Everything they do is performance based. They will not tell you what an individual is actually capable of because they only look at the result of the play. They look at production, not traits. I would not recommend using PFF for anything aside from assigning tendencies.

[Steel4Reel]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I agree that there is a better way to rate the ELU attribute, but PFF is not it. They are not scouts. Everything they do is performance based. They will not tell you what an individual is actually capable of because they only look at the result of the play. They look at production, not traits. I would not recommend using PFF for anything aside from assigning tendencies.

Brilliantly put about PFF.

Too many people cite PFF as some kind of all knowing source. They arent. Their grades are often utter garbage and are often not a good reflection of how good/bad certain players were.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Steel4Reel

Brilliantly put about PFF. Too many people cite PFF as some kind of all knowing source. They arent. Their grades are often utter garbage and are often not a good reflection of how good/bad certain players were.

All you need to do is read their FAQ page. Lot's of stuff that should raise red flags in there. Here are some quotes:

"All of the data is collected in order to build a detailed picture of each player’s performance and production over the course of a season."

"We offer a different type of scouting, strictly based on performance and not technique or upside"

"We are looking for the result of that poor technique, not the poor technique itself. If poor technique results in a positive play, that is graded at the same level as good technique yielding a positive play."

"Essentially, we’ve created a new type of scouting that strictly looks at performance, not necessarily the process that gets there. In our dealings with NFL clients, we’ve referred to this as supplying the “what” as they supply the “why.” We can tell a team that an offensive tackle gives up an inordinate amount of bullrush pressure and they can determine if it’s a lack of technique, functional strength, or perhaps a combination of the two."



To me, PFF doesn't tell you how good a player is. Instead it tells us how well a player produces. There is a big difference between the two. They only look at the result of the play. Anytime someone attempts to justify rating players in Madden with PFF stats, I just roll my eyes and ignore it.

[charter04]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

All you need to do is read their FAQ page. Lot's of stuff that should raise red flags in there. Here are some quotes: "All of the data is collected in order to build a detailed picture of each player’s performance and production over the course of a season." "We offer a different type of scouting, strictly based on performance and not technique or upside" "We are looking for the result of that poor technique, not the poor technique itself. If poor technique results in a positive play, that is graded at the same level as good technique yielding a positive play." "Essentially, we’ve created a new type of scouting that strictly looks at performance, not necessarily the process that gets there. In our dealings with NFL clients, we’ve referred to this as supplying the “what” as they supply the “why.” We can tell a team that an offensive tackle gives up an inordinate amount of bullrush pressure and they can determine if it’s a lack of technique, functional strength, or perhaps a combination of the two." To me, PFF doesn't tell you how good a player is. Instead it tells us how well a player produces. There is a big difference between the two. They only look at the result of the play. Anytime someone attempts to justify rating players in Madden with PFF stats, I just roll my eyes and ignore it.

I'm sure PFF is one of the sources that was used to rate players by Donny Moore. Madden ratings usually change based on production just like PFF. It's one of the reasons the ratings aren't accurate.

Example: DeMarco Murray got huge ratings boosts as the season went on last year.

But, did he really get better? Or was the line and his carries what raised production?

He even got a one point raise in his speed rating?! Lol so as the year went on he even got faster?! Makes no sense.

EA has been doing ratings backward for a while.

[fballturkey]

Quote: Originally Posted by charter04

I'm sure PFF is one of the sources that was used to rate players by Donny Moore. Madden ratings usually change based on production just like PFF. It's one of the reasons the ratings aren't accurate. Example: DeMarco Murray got huge ratings boosts as the season went on last year. But, did he really get better? Or was the line and his carries what raised production? He even got a one point raise in his speed rating?! Lol so as the year went on he even got faster?! Makes no sense. EA has been doing ratings backward for a while.

Agreed 100% and this is the problem I have with the whole XP system as well. A player doesn't get better by making big plays on the field. They make big plays on the field because they're good. It makes no sense to reward players in a CCM that play well with ratings boosts.

[ggsimmonds]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

All you need to do is read their FAQ page. Lot's of stuff that should raise red flags in there. Here are some quotes: "All of the data is collected in order to build a detailed picture of each player’s performance and production over the course of a season." "We offer a different type of scouting, strictly based on performance and not technique or upside" "We are looking for the result of that poor technique, not the poor technique itself. If poor technique results in a positive play, that is graded at the same level as good technique yielding a positive play." "Essentially, we’ve created a new type of scouting that strictly looks at performance, not necessarily the process that gets there. In our dealings with NFL clients, we’ve referred to this as supplying the “what” as they supply the “why.” We can tell a team that an offensive tackle gives up an inordinate amount of bullrush pressure and they can determine if it’s a lack of technique, functional strength, or perhaps a combination of the two." To me, PFF doesn't tell you how good a player is. Instead it tells us how well a player produces. There is a big difference between the two. They only look at the result of the play. Anytime someone attempts to justify rating players in Madden with PFF stats, I just roll my eyes and ignore it.

Depends on what you use or expect from PFF. To me nothing you quoted raises any kind of red flags. Sure, if a guy says player X must be better than Y because his grades are higher that would be unwise, but that is hardly the blame of PFF.

As for the use of PFF to rate players in Madden, I think there absolutely is justification. Madden's goal should be to replicate what happens in real life. PFF is results centric. The two go hand in hand. Not saying that ratings should be determined by PFF, but results based metrics should be considered. If someone has the position that because PFF is production based it should not play a role in rating players, then the only logical conclusion is that nothing production based should play a role. Meaning only rate players by scouting data. To me that is just as foolish as only relying on PFF or conventional stats.

I could be wrong, but Dan I think we have had this discussion before in the FBG thread.

[charter04]

Quote: Originally Posted by ggsimmonds

Depends on what you use or expect from PFF. To me nothing you quoted raises any kind of red flags. Sure, if a guy says player X must be better than Y because his grades are higher that would be unwise, but that is hardly the blame of PFF. As for the use of PFF to rate players in Madden, I think there absolutely is justification. Madden's goal should be to replicate what happens in real life. PFF is results centric. The two go hand in hand. Not saying that ratings should be determined by PFF, but results based metrics should be considered. If someone has the position that because PFF is production based it should not play a role in rating players, then the only logical conclusion is that nothing production based should play a role. Meaning only rate players by scouting data. To me that is just as foolish as only relying on PFF or conventional stats. I could be wrong, but Dan I think we have had this discussion before in the FBG thread.

It depends on how truly accurate you want ratings to be. If you want productions based ratings then EA's traditional ratings should work for you. It's the same basic method Tecmo Super Bowl used. That's why the TB Bucs had the best CB in that game. He had like 12 ints the year they based everything on. He wasn't even that good of a corner though. He just had one of those years.

Kind of like Larry Brown getting 2 ints in the Super Bowl and winning the MVP but, was an average talent and more a result of the system and just being at the right place at the right time.

I would rather let actual scouting data determine how players are rated and the results will be what they are. Just like real life.


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