The Tough Road of Being a Sports Developer, Featuring Mike Wang

[Sovartus]

Quote: Originally Posted by Melbournelad

So association players should never see any association issues fixed? Because if it is still "low priority" after 4 years then it will never get fixed. How can a whole mode be "low priority" for 4 years in a row? It's not just "one issue" in association. There are many of them and code related development should take much less time than art related development.

I understand your position Melbournelad and think we need to see the reality in the game development world. For all we know, there could be a team of 1 or 2 people working on that part of the game. And honestly, there aren't that many developers (from what I understand) that actually do code work these days. They really don't have to be able to do that. I believe there is tech out there that makes it unnecessary.

Experts chime in if I'm misinformed... lol I'm no expert for sure.

Between manpower and time constraints, it could simply be "low priority". Especially if it doesn't really affect to overall functioning of the mode and doesn't really cause a true lack of realism. (I don't know what your issue is so I'm generalizing quite a bit.)

[23]

I'd honestly like to know since the architecture is more unified and so on is it a little easier for them to develop the games, rather than doing it on 2 different systems and being ported from one to another

[Melbournelad]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sovartus

I understand your position Melbournelad and think we need to see the reality in the game development world. For all we know, there could be a team of 1 or 2 people working on that part of the game. And honestly, there aren't that many developers (from what I understand) that actually do code work these days. They really don't have to be able to do that. I believe there is tech out there that makes it unnecessary. Experts chime in if I'm misinformed... lol I'm no expert for sure. Between manpower and time constraints, it could simply be "low priority". Especially if it doesn't really affect to overall functioning of the mode and doesn't really cause a true lack of realism. (I don't know what your issue is so I'm generalizing quite a bit.)

Oh I didn't realise you didn't know what the association issues were. Well trust me if they didnt affect the overall functionality of the mode, association players would be alot more understanding (even after 4 years). But unfortunately they do. The issues pretty much break the whole mode.

There are many more issues, but here are the most basic ones which wreck the whole mode:

Player progression is ridiculously messed up. After a couple seasons every team has numerous 90+ and 80+ rated players which means great players don't stand out, great teams don't stand out and most teams are around .500. This also leads to half the league looking for max contracts. It's just an absolute mess. And this also means no one can start a realistic association until a quality roster team has spent several months adjusting every single player rating and potential. This is such a basic issue to fix if they actually tested association. Players all decline and hit their peaks at the exact same stage in their career's.

The default generated draft classes are just as bad, if not worse, then the real players ratings. They also have extremely high potential. No busts, all end up rated as stars. To make it worse, they have extremely low tendencies. You have big men with high 3pt tendencies even though they are horrible 3pt shooters. Guards with high close and inside shot tendencies even though they are horrible inside but good outside shooters.

Trade and FA logic is horrible. You will have Cp3 choosing to sign with teams like the cavs and twolves even though he would never do so in real life, not to mention they already have quality point guards! Kyrie Irving ends up as a backup point guard! The only trades that ever occur are involving bench warmers and role players. Never any starters or stars. Players are handed out contracts depending on their overall and potential rating, instead of how they played during the preceeding season. A player who had 6 points on 45% shooting and played 10 minutes could get a max contract.

There is no logical team building for any CPU teams. What they do just does not make sense. They have no plan for their team. What SHOULD happen is: Rebuilding teams should trade veterans for young assets and picks. Contending teams may be inclined to do the opposite. A season could be given up as a team sets up cap space for a big FA class etc. Or there could even be teams that perennially contend for 6-10 seeds because that's what their owners tell them to do.

Teams aren't given the correct draft picks. For example the Lakers have all their draft picks for the next 5 years even though in real life we have traded half of them away. You can't trade protected picks. You can't stash picks in Europe. You can't trade picks that are more than 2 years away.

The draft logic is terrible. You might have a draft where Andrew Wiggins is by far the best prospect. But the CPU will go ahead and not draft him until the 18th pick.

They removed the D-league for no apparent reason.

Player roles makes no sense. It's guaranteed that all players rated above 66 want to be a role player. All players rated above 72 want to be a sixth man. All players rated above 80 or so want to be a starter. Players in real life who are sixth men such as JR Smith, Manu etc will never be set as sixth men by the CPU. They will always start. The CPU also generically assigns the same amount of minutes for the same rated players. For example a player will always be given 36 minutes if they are rated between 80-84. There are no defensive specialists or 3pt specialists. Star players are always happy no matter what when given sufficient playing time. They never get frustrated at their team not winning or not being number one option etc.

The salary cap randomly goes up by 2 million every year so in 10 seasons it will be set at 78 million (Its 58 million in real life).

80% of the leagues coaches are fired each season for no reason. Every single single generic coach that replaces them are given A ratings in offense and defense. All scouts, nba scouts, trainers are generic. All staff in the coaching pool is generic. Assistant coaches can't be promoted to head coach.

Assist leaders rarely have over 9 a game. Rebound leaders rarely have over 10 a game. Scoring leaders rarely have over 25 a game. Team stats each season are really messed up compared to real life. Minutes leaders rarely have over 37 a game. MVP's are rarely given to the best player. Same with DPOY and MIP. The stats engine just has to have a bigger range of results. Also teams take way to many FTA and barely any 3FGA every season.

You can't have 4 team trades.

Players are never rested, matchups never change, and coaches never experiment with different lineups. In real life game to game players recieve different amounts of playing time depending on if they are playing well. In the Playoffs each series coaches should be using specific lineups depending on what type of team they are playing.


Every year in the playoffs you will have 6th and 8th seeds in the conference finals.

Teams in FA never overpay (or get players under market value) like they do in real life.

When players suffer significant season ending injuries there are no consequences. They should automatically have their potential and/or durability lowered. Look what happened to Brandon Roy and Greg Oden.

In the playoffs and at the end of close games the crowd is never animated as they should be.



I'm sure there are things that I have left out, and trust me there are many more smaller issues. I know this seems like a very long list, and some of these might not seem that significant, but they really get in the way of a solid association mode. Also, everything I have listed is just existing issues that should be fixed. We would just be happy with this, let alone all the new features which could be added (Improved draft scouting, get rid of the overall rating system, expansion, summer league, dynamic player progression system allowing for busts such as what PES has, ability to be an owner and dictate the financial aspect of the team, intricate player moral system, the ability to watch a game in progress (just watch it in hoopcast, which 2k already has) and intervene in the 3rd or 4th quarter liked Live used to have, etc).

*** Highlighted IMO what are the absolute worst issues.

[mango_prom]

Quote: Originally Posted by Melbournelad

Trade and FA logic is horrible. You will have Cp3 choosing to sign with teams like the cavs and twolves even though he would never do so in real life, not to mention they already have quality point guards! Kyrie Irving ends up as a backup point guard!

Yeah, and this is where AI gameplay breaks down by the way. I've mentioned this too often, but CP3 is a great example, and maybe some dev will read this accidentally, so just ignore this if you're bored already, lol. If you play against a PG like CP3 after he signed with another team than the default one, the CPU ignores him while calling plays. The only PnRs you'll see are either out of High/Low sets with a pick as an option after the post entry is denied or part of the transition scripting kicking in after defensive rebounds/turnovers (if you don't tweak coaching profiles to fastbreak and run plays at 0) where the ball handler is running straight into his defender at the 3pt line with a big man often setting the pick behind the ball handler, who is already stuck in the drive spam scripting.

Just annoying. Why should I even play against the CPU, if the whole thing doesn't work with trades/FA/generated rookies? I mean the whole mode is basically unplayable that way, at least for me. The only workaround is to set the association save game to read-only (only way to stop auto save) and adjust touches to some stupid stuff like PGs at 100 and everybody else scaled to something like 60 at most. But it's a total crapshoot and you have to do trial and error with every team individually to work around this. I've tried everything, and it's just not working. If a team signs Chris Paul, and he has the highest touches on the team, he should get the most plays called, period.

Maybe after 2k14 is released I'll have to take everything back and look like an idiot, lol. So no more complaining from me, it's too late anyway.

[Da_Czar]

Quote: Originally Posted by mango_prom

Yeah, and this is where AI gameplay breaks down by the way. I've mentioned this too often, but CP3 is a great example, and maybe some dev will read this accidentally, so just ignore this if you're bored already, lol. If you play against a PG like CP3 after he signed with another team than the default one, the CPU ignores him while calling plays. The only PnRs you'll see are either out of High/Low sets with a pick as an option after the post entry is denied or part of the transition scripting kicking in after defensive rebounds/turnovers (if you don't tweak coaching profiles to fastbreak and run plays at 0) where the ball handler is running straight into his defender at the 3pt line with a big man often setting the pick behind the ball handler, who is already stuck in the drive spam scripting. Just annoying. Why should I even play against the CPU, if the whole thing doesn't work with trades/FA/generated rookies? I mean the whole mode is basically unplayable that way, at least for me. The only workaround is to set the association save game to read-only (only way to stop auto save) and adjust touches to some stupid stuff like PGs at 100 and everybody else scaled to something like 60 at most. But it's a total crapshoot and you have to do trial and error with every team individually to work around this. I've tried everything, and it's just not working. If a team signs Chris Paul, and he has the highest touches on the team, he should get the most plays called, period. Maybe after 2k14 is released I'll have to take everything back and look like an idiot, lol. So no more complaining from me, it's too late anyway.

Mango that is an issue with a different system it just rears it's head in association mode. We went hunting for this one when I was there and listen there were ton's of lines of code to go through. The engineer found something that I hope relieves this issue but as I say often it can be many small issues that together add up to a bigger issue.

Knowing what is wrong is only a small part of the problem. Actually finding it can be a big problem with a game this size. This game is MASSIVE. And the kicker is every time. EVERY TIME you change something you could be creating another issue somewhere else. Gamers just have no clue how interconnected these games can be.

I have also said this. Just because something is breaking one part of the game does NOT mean it isn't also fixing something else.

I have personally seen where they go in for what appears to be a simple change and the rabbit hole opens up and a week of engineer time is lost figuring out something that in all honestly very few people may even notice. You may say so what to that. Until you find the same dude is working on another more important core element of gameplay that needs to be addressed.

So again if it was all that simple trust me they have rocketscience level engineers there it would have been fixed. Add that into questions about priorities, time, workload, management, bug fixes. There is plenty for someone to be working on.

And let's not pretend this isn't real world here. In the real world management looks at stats to find out where they get the most bang for your buck. If no one is playing a mode(relatively speaking) and your sales increase a couple million when you added a certain other mode(speculation) What is your manager going to tell you when you say hey I want to burn a month fixing so and so ?

When it isn't your precious favorite videogame we clearly understand decisions like that in the real world but when its our personal favorite mode #AintNoBodyTryingToHearThat lol.

And 1 last thing on the bridging the gap between gamers and developers soapbox. Just because something isn't fixed does not mean it wasn't worked on. Sometime a fix is implemented but it isn't sufficient because there are multiple underlying issues.

Again I remember when I had the same thoughts on why this and why that so I try to share as much as I can to help you understand that regardless of the developer there are very real barriers or obstacles to making a really good solid well rounded bug free sports game and even if a dev team did everything perfect the quality of the games wouldn't increase much more than they are now because of the problems with the "system' of creating a game in a 9-10 month cycle.

Having said all that dev's are not perfect and also make mistakes and managment can make a bad decision or two which makes waters even more murky.

Think of it like this of all the people in the world there are only 2 teams that if lucky total 250 people between them... that are working on a sim basketball game. Your dealing with the best people in the world at what they do from engineers to artists to producers. You have a better chance of making it into the NBA than working on one of these games. Think about that.

I point that out just to say if the best in the world are struggling to make a great game in 10 months it must be more difficult that we imagine to accomplish. (now watch live release a perfect game first year out and make a fool out me LOL)

[Melbournelad]

Quote: Originally Posted by Da_Czar

Mango that is an issue with a different system it just rears it's head in association mode. We went hunting for this one when I was there and listen there were ton's of lines of code to go through. The engineer found something that I hope relieves this issue but as I say often it can be many small issues that together add up to a bigger issue. Knowing what is wrong is only a small part of the problem. Actually finding it can be a big problem with a game this size. This game is MASSIVE. And the kicker is every time. EVERY TIME you change something you could be creating another issue somewhere else. Gamers just have no clue how interconnected these games can be. I have also said this. Just because something is breaking one part of the game does NOT mean it isn't also fixing something else.

If it is difficult to fix issues which apply to every mode in the whole game because they are interconnected, why can't they fix any issues which ONLY apply to association? Many of the things i listed are not related to any other mode and are also just code and testing, which means they would be the quickest to fix compared to gameplay and player models.

[Boilerbuzz]

Quote: Originally Posted by Melbournelad

If it is difficult to fix issues which apply to every mode in the whole game because they are interconnected, why can't they fix any issues which ONLY apply to association? Many of the things i listed are not related to any other mode and are also just code and testing, which means they would be the quickest to fix compared to gameplay and player models.

He's saying interconnected within that mode. A franchise mode, in of itself is whole world of its own. For example, one of your issues was the trading of players. Well, there is a human element of not trying to trade super stars. So you see a lot of trades of mid level guys. The risk is that you would never see a Melo trade. Or Dwight Howard. But they have to trigger somehow. So, you try to write that element in, and bam, for some odd reason, CP3 gets traded.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

[Melbournelad]

Quote: Originally Posted by Boilerbuzz

He's saying interconnected within that mode. A franchise mode, in of itself is whole world of its own. For example, one of your issues was the trading of players. Well, there is a human element of not trying to trade super stars. So you see a lot of trades of mid level guys. The risk is that you would never see a Melo trade. Or Dwight Howard. But they have to trigger somehow. So, you try to write that element in, and bam, for some odd reason, CP3 gets traded. Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4

True, but it's more the mid level guys that need to be traded and aren't actually. All the trades are involving players that never have any game time. If they can't code star player's to be traded occaionally without it happening too often, at least code it so role player's and starter's are more frequently. I have rarely ever seen a player traded that was more then a 10th man.