Madden NFL 25 - Formation Audibles (UPDATED)

[californ14]

Band aids are what we are getting until the whole game is over hauled...Until next gen is grounded and programmers can truly use all that is available, 2 or 3 years from now, ill take the band aid over the continued exploits.

I believe EA Tiburon knows what they need to do in regards to physics; though I do not know why currently a player with rating 5 on all his attributes, creating an overall player rating of 12, can still block a player with an overall of 9o, but I am hoping EA Tiburon knows why and it is on the fix list in the next gen....

It does bug me beyond belief, to the point of not playing or buying the game, knowing that really, not only does size not matter, but attributes are basically useless....Maybe sliders are what dictate it all and the player attributes are window dressing? If that is the case, EA Tiburon can go screw themselves....Hell, for never giving a full explanation on this stuff, they can go screw themselves....

I still do not see as much shifting and mixing of formations and personnel as some seem to be seeing...Fact remains still, no WR lines up to block from a TE position and then a run play is called to his side....Doesn't happen...

[PSUEagle]

I don't see how you can be a proponent of a true simulation game and not see where BezO is coming from.

In real life formations are merely where players align: a team can choose to put players in whatever spot they so desire. For instance, I remember a play where the Vikings split FB Jerome Felton all the way to the field as the #1 WR in an Empty set. Felton had I think two catches on the year to that point, but the defense still had to spread out and honor him. And since a CB aligned over him, it became a clear indicator to QB Christian Ponder that it was zone coverage (if a linebacker/safety had walked out over him it would have almost certainly meant man to man coverage).

The above is but one of hundreds of similar scenarios you can find all throughout the league that most team use (the Saints are probably the very best at doing this, FWIW). Coaches will move guys around all the time in order to force the defense to declare coverage/get them into various checks (i.e. Empty check, 3X1 check, etc).

The problem with this series is that players are hard coded into specific spots based on formation as opposed to dynamically adjusting based on what position they play. So if I call a set with the Patriots using a "TE Wide" type of package (something that puts one of their TE's out as the #1 WR) but want to no huddle afterwards into something like SB Ace because the defense has their nickel package on the field, the game should recognize this and move the TE I have out wide in tight. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you're an acne riddled tourney style douche bag) in this series though a WR will end up as one of the TE's.

The same issue occurs with many other personnel packages in this game. Hell, for a lot of sets things are so badly coded that you don't even need to use packages to get a WR at TE: if you audible from Gun Trio to Gun Doubles a WR (can't remember which one on the depth chart) will actually end up at TE! So because EA can't even properly QC the basics of their very flawed system you end up with crap like Mike Wallace at TE getting a free release each play being covered by a linebacker.

And honestly, I can already see some loopholes in this "fix" that your garden variety online ******s will use to get a Desean Jackson lined up a FB/TE: I guarantee you the "personnel on the field" is coded to what personnel is in the default formation (i.e. Ace Bunch=11 personnel). So when someone uses a package in that set (say "All WR") the game will still recognize the set as 11 personnel (even though 10 personnel is what's actually on the field), thus enabling someone to get a WR lined up at TE. I challenge someone to prove me wrong on this one.

The bottom line is that this series is broken because this entire generation has been nothing but quick fixes, band-aids, and shortcuts. The only way you'll see a game where no one is going to try to get Mike Wallace at TE or Desean Jackson at HB is to build it from the ground up and base it on physics and a defense that has defined "rules" in place that govern how they play run and pass (i.e. not the current system which is basically "run to the footbaw"). Since that will require a massive overhaul, color me pessimistic.

[juicer420]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

No need to separate personnel from formations in that case. IRL, a defensive coordinator is basing his personnel on the offense's personnel (also considering down & distance). He doesn't know what formation the offense will come out in. Have you not seen a team in base personnel split 1 or both RBs? TE lined up outside a WR? It's not only done with versatile players. It's sometimes done with players that will probably never catch a pass from there just to dictate & reveal coverage. Teams will send their blocking, no hands FB out to WR just to see what the defense will do. Do you send a LB, SS or CB? What does that say about the coverage & who does that leave to cover the other 4 eligible receivers? The RB is not always sent out there because he's the next coming of Marchall Faulk.

You can come out in a base formation and motion the FB out wide. All these things can still be accomplished with motions and substitutions. The limitations are there to prevent unrealistic formations from personnel groupings that you would never see. Sure, there are unconventional sets in the NFL, but I don't see how limiting the audibles denies us from doing all these things you mention.

I guess I just dont understand your gripe with this. This will make the game more realistic IMO. We have a more expansive hurry up/audible system. What's not to like? It's got to be better than what was there previously. I guess I just don't see how this is a band aid fix. This seems like a step in the right direction to me. Hopefully it's well implemented.

I agree that other things need to be fixed and there are more pressing needs, but this is a welcomed addition in my book.

[juicer420]

Quote: Originally Posted by PSUEagle

I don't see how you can be a proponent of a true simulation game and not see where BezO is coming from. In real life formations are merely where players align: a team can choose to put players in whatever spot they so desire. For instance, I remember a play where the Vikings split FB Jerome Felton all the way to the field as the #1 WR in an Empty set. Felton had I think two catches on the year to that point, but the defense still had to spread out and honor him. And since a CB aligned over him, it became a clear indicator to QB Christian Ponder that it was zone coverage (if a linebacker/safety had walked out over him it would have almost certainly meant man to man coverage). The above is but one of hundreds of similar scenarios you can find all throughout the league that most team use (the Saints are probably the very best at doing this, FWIW). Coaches will move guys around all the time in order to force the defense to declare coverage/get them into various checks (i.e. Empty check, 3X1 check, etc). The problem with this series is that players are hard coded into specific spots based on formation as opposed to dynamically adjusting based on what position they play. So if I call a set with the Patriots using a "TE Wide" type of package (something that puts one of their TE's out as the #1 WR) but want to no huddle afterwards into something like SB Ace because the defense has their nickel package on the field, the game should recognize this and move the TE I have out wide in tight. Unfortunately (or fortunately if you're an acne riddled tourney style douche bag) in this series though a WR will end up as one of the TE's. The same issue occurs with many other personnel packages in this game. Hell, for a lot of sets things are so badly coded that you don't even need to use packages to get a WR at TE: if you audible from Gun Trio to Gun Doubles a WR (can't remember which one on the depth chart) will actually end up at TE! So because EA can't even properly QC the basics of their very flawed system you end up with crap like Mike Wallace at TE getting a free release each play being covered by a linebacker. And honestly, I can already see some loopholes in this "fix" that your garden variety online ******s will use to get a Desean Jackson lined up a FB/TE: I guarantee you the "personnel on the field" is coded to what personnel is in the default formation (i.e. Ace Bunch=11 personnel). So when someone uses a package in that set (say "All WR") the game will still recognize the set as 11 personnel (even though 10 personnel is what's actually on the field), thus enabling someone to get a WR lined up at TE. I challenge someone to prove me wrong on this one. The bottom line is that this series is broken because this entire generation has been nothing but quick fixes, band-aids, and shortcuts. The only way you'll see a game where no one is going to try to get Mike Wallace at TE or Desean Jackson at HB is to build it from the ground up and base it on physics and a defense that has defined "rules" in place that govern how they play run and pass (i.e. not the current system which is basically "run to the footbaw"). Since that will require a massive overhaul, color me pessimistic.

I see what you're saying, and that's why I think formation substitutions are sorely needed. And I mean outside of the game and not just on the fly subs.

If you can set your formations, then the game should recognize those as the default. And not necessarily by player, but by position. So if you want your TE in as a wideout in a certain formation, the game should recognize this formation as a formation that fits your personnel group.

I don't know if you guys remember how it used to work...formation subs that is. It used to work where you put specific players in different positions. But what if you could set it up by position.

So lets say, a 3WR/1HB/1TE formation is what you want to adjust. Instead of saying you want Vernon Davis as a wideout and making that sub. Why not just change the wideout to TE1. Then the TE position can be set to TE2. The HB to HB1. And the other 2 receivers as WR1 and WR3 or WR2 and WR1, whatever you want.

The numbers represent the player on the depth chart.

Anyway, you set this formation and when you want to run hurry up or call an audible, the game recognizes that you have 2wrs/2tes/1hb on the field even though you are in a formation that is typically 3wrs. Now you can audible to any formation that you have set up that matches that personnel.

Hopefully I explained that well enough, but essentially it would allow us to call audibles to formations that match the personnel we set.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

Same matter to me. Audibles are based on the formations/personnel available in the huddle, no? So, If I come out in base personnel, I can't audible to any formation that EA doesn't connect to that personnel. In the huddle or at the LOS, it's the same limitation. My problem is not with the audibles per se, as their just a product of the playbooks & play calling set up. I have a problem with the entire play calling mechanic. I have the same problem with this as I had with defensive hot routes / audibles in your thread. The limitations provided / asked for are not aligned with football. They're Madden band-aids based on other broken Madden elements. Everything is this big, complicated thing that can't be implemented right away... until the masses start asking for it, then all of a sudden, it wasn't so hard after all. Anyone remember EA saying last gen consoles couldn't handle multi-defender tackling? Another game implemented it that same year. EA followed shortly after. I see the same things here every year. Folks complain about the micro issues. EA fixes the micro issues. Rinse, repeat. Nothing ever gets fixed. But I get it, somewhat. Folks play online against randoms, many of which cheese every facet of the game they can. I just wish folks put in as much complaining/suggestion time towards real fixes as they did these micro issues.

I completely understand the fundamental issue with limiting formation sub personnel but I don't see what that has to do with audibles into players "out of position". Meaning in the NFL why would a team ever audible from 5WR to a goal line formation?

I know that's extreme example but that's the kind of stuff that happens in Madden. Again, I get that you are saying that's not against the NFL rules, which it actually probably is technically with certain restrictions on shifts, players being lined up correctly, etc, but for the sake of this discussion we will say it's not. Anyway, the game would have to account for the real world risk/reward to doing something like that, which it currently doesn't.

I guess there is no need to go any further into that because we disagree on what to do until that's the case. I would agree with you that if audibles are going to be in the game, then they need to be realistic but I disagree that until that happens to leave them as is. My stance is pretty clear that until x can be done right, it should be limited appropriately to prevent exploitation.

That's where you and others lose me because what you basically seem to be saying is leave it broken and unlimited, if it can't be fixed and unlimited.

[TreFacTor]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

Plus that play isn't something Madden is even trying to stop, that was the Broncos adjusting from a bunch formation with tight ends to a stretch which is a perfectly common play. They are trying to prevent users from adjusting wideouts into bunch formations to exploit the AI which is not something you see.

I would hope that for next gen Madden they dig at the crux of the problem though. The reason people can do it and get away with it is the lack of intelligent ai to recognize the mismatch even though the formation has changed and no subs were made. One of the biggest underlying problems with the game IMHO.

[californ14]

On a side note, but in relation to Ai and attributes, I went into the Packers and brought every offensive lineman down to "5" across the board, except for "injury," "Stamina," and "Toungness," which I kept the same....

A "5" rating for all the OL attributes gives a player overall of "12."

I noticed in game that the pass rush by the Bears was more intense but I had about 3 seconds in the pocket or so; in fact the pass rush seemed more realistic at this setup...The running game, no so good; got a couple runs of 3 to 4 yards and then a number of stops at the LOS - though I must note, I am not that good at running anyway...

I also dropped my DE's and DT's all down to "0." This really didn't see much of a negative effect; in fact on one play NT Raji got around Bears' center Garza, split RB Forte and FB Rodriquez and sacked QB Cutler....So no real negative here either....

Either OL and DL attributes are not used at all or there is no significant difference between great and absolute zero in Madden ratings....If anything, do not bother with OL or DL in CCM, save your money for teh skill positions only....

As I did notice after I dropped the TE's all down to a "5" rating in all teh attributes, TE Finley dropped 1 out of 2 passes, which considering his hands in real life, may be spot on, but on his one catch he had no run speed; but prior to the catch TE Finley seemed to run his route at normal speed, or at least I could not tell the difference....

[FlyEaglesFly3]

Quote: Originally Posted by californ14

On a side note, but in relation to Ai and attributes, I went into the Packers and brought every offensive lineman down to "5" across the board, except for "injury," "Stamina," and "Toungness," which I kept the same.... A "5" rating for all the OL attributes gives a player overall of "12." I noticed in game that the pass rush by the Bears was more intense but I had about 3 seconds in the pocket or so; in fact the pass rush seemed more realistic at this setup...The running game, no so good; got a couple runs of 3 to 4 yards and then a number of stops at the LOS - though I must note, I am not that good at running anyway... I also dropped my DE's and DT's all down to "0." This really didn't see much of a negative effect; in fact on one play NT Raji got around Bears' center Garza, split RB Forte and FB Rodriquez and sacked QB Cutler....So no real negative here either.... Either OL and DL attributes are not used at all or there is no significant difference between great and absolute zero in Madden ratings....If anything, do not bother with OL or DL in CCM, save your money for teh skill positions only.... As I did notice after I dropped the TE's all down to a "5" rating in all teh attributes, TE Finley dropped 1 out of 2 passes, which considering his hands in real life, may be spot on, but on his one catch he had no run speed; but prior to the catch TE Finley seemed to run his route at normal speed, or at least I could not tell the difference....

As I expected. Continue trying this, with all positions, and you'll find that about 3 positions will have a negative impact when you drop their attributes incredibly low. QB, RB, WR.

I think LBs will still tackle, CBs will still cover, and everyone else will do their job.

Outside of pure speed though, keep speed up and focus on the actual positional skills.

Madden needs to do three things to make the game and its players special.

Build a team of "ratings gurus"

Make every rating have an impact on the game. No secret modifiers or math problems, just pure ratings.

After that's fixed, rate everyone and their attributes on a scale from 0-99.

That all should result in:
-Noticeable difference between camp bodies, practice squad, special teamers, backups, and starters.
-Allowing offenses to avoid certain plays towards said player, and make defenses focus more on said player.
-making trades more accurate.
-a bigger OVR spectrum.
-players notice a considerable drop off in game if an injury occurs to starter.
-create a very rough task in rebuilding or doing a rags to riches franchise/SS
-make drafting a "bust" a much more detrimental event.
-Lastly, it will make users pay attention to who is on the field, matching up vs who, and add strategy/depth