FBGRatings Seeks to Recalibrate Madden Ratings, Change Game

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

The whole issue I think people would have with Welker being a better blocker than the average TE is size and strength. I guess Madden accounts for that variable by causing players that are out of position, ie editing Wes Welker to a TE, by having their skill set lowered at that position. This actually makes sense because even with scouts grading Wes Welker as a blocker, they are doing so based on him blocking as a WR against mostly CB, not more skilled block shedding defenders. So I guess the universal element of ratings would easily apply to measurable ratings, like speed but for skill ratings it would need to be more position, size based, to be closer to accurate.

Welker is not always blocking CBs though. He plays in the slot the majority of the time where he faces OLB/S combinations in addition to nickel and dime CBs. I guess the biggest factor for me is that since all WRs and TEs are graded on the same scale using the same factors for ability (not expectation) then those abilities should be reflected in the ratings. If Welker shows the ability to be better at RBK than a TE, then so be it. Or am I missing something here? Would it make more sense to give RBK/PBK different ranges based on actual position (like WR vs. TE) rather than positional grouping (WR/TEs vs. RBs/FBs) like the scouting data designates?

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by JMP

Darth Hoodie! I love it. What stands out here is that the ratings aren't universal at all, but contextual; they're based on data gathered mostly in the context of blocking defensive backs or the occasional chip. I'd think that'd make a difference, since no statistics and no data are produced in a vacuum. In any case, I'm proud of Wes, who has proven to be objectively valuable at multiple positions. There's no good reason for him to be rotting on the bench as he is now.

Welker does play in the slot against OLBs and Ss/Nickel/Dime backs though right?

The scheme should be disregarded, IMO, simply because the grades are based on the ability IF everything was equal and set in a vacuum.

[Mavmoses07]

DCEBB2001, would you mind explaining how these blocking grades are calculated, or providing a link? I didn't see any explanation on the FBG ratings website. If I understood and agreed with how this grades were calculated, then I'd be fine with Welker having a higher Gronk since Welker grades out better than Gronk. I'm just skeptical on how this grade is calculated. Do these grades take into account who a blocker is blocking? I have no doubt that Welker is one of the better blocking WR's, just don't feel he's better than Gronk.

The profootballfocus website calculates similar blocking ratings for each player at each position. I've spoken with them about their ratings. Their ratings do not factor in the position of a blocking assignment (e.g., if a WR is blocking a DB vs. a TE blocking a LB). I disagree with this approach as I feel one should be given for more credit for successfully blocking a LB as opposed to a DB. Does the FBG grading system take this into account?

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Welker is not always blocking CBs though. He plays in the slot the majority of the time where he faces OLB/S combinations in addition to nickel and dime CBs. I guess the biggest factor for me is that since all WRs and TEs are graded on the same scale using the same factors for ability (not expectation) then those abilities should be reflected in the ratings. If Welker shows the ability to be better at RBK than a TE, then so be it. Or am I missing something here? Would it make more sense to give RBK/PBK different ranges based on actual position (like WR vs. TE) rather than positional grouping (WR/TEs vs. RBs/FBs) like the scouting data designates?

This stuff for me mainly is different because of Welker's size and strength. For example the Redskins moved Niles Paul from WR to TE due to his size being conducive to handle that change. However, I doubt that would have been possible for Santana Moss, lol. Same thing with this Welker at TE scenario, I would think his skill at blocking in the TE position would have to be effected by his size and strength. Another thing is that from the WR position, those blocks are from an upright starting position off the LOS, where as with a TE he would likely be coming off the LOS from a three point stance.

So in a nutshell a position change like that would need to consider the difference in technique effecting the skill set of the player. Again though, I think this likely fall more inline with Madden not having enough animation variation but I guess the ratings change when putting players in different positions is meant to account for that.

So in a universal ratings system where ratings do NOT adjust when changing positions, I would think that Wes Welker would have to rated lower at blocking than the average TE. Reason being that scale should rating every player, in every rating, based on the best and worst at that rating. So Welker would be on a scale for the best run blockers, not just the best WR/TE run blockers, if that makes sense. I have no idea how to calculate thought since again the scouting data is likely not accounting for technique/blocking stance.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mavmoses07

DCEBB2001, would you mind explaining how these blocking grades are calculated, or providing a link? I didn't see any explanation on the FBG ratings website. If I understood and agreed with how this grades were calculated, then I'd be fine with Welker having a higher Gronk since Welker grades out better than Gronk. I'm just skeptical on how this grade is calculated. Do these grades take into account who a blocker is blocking? I have no doubt that Welker is one of the better blocking WR's, just don't feel he's better than Gronk. The profootballfocus website calculates similar blocking ratings for each player at each position. I've spoken with them about their ratings. Their ratings do not factor in the position of a blocking assignment (e.g., if a WR is blocking a DB vs. a TE blocking a LB). I disagree with this approach as I feel one should be given for more credit for successfully blocking a LB as opposed to a DB. Does the FBG grading system take this into account?

All data on the FBG site is derrived from real NFL scouting information. It uses only VERIFIED information for both raw attributes (STR, AGI, SPD, ACC, JMP) and dynamic attributes (THP for a QB, PBS for an OT, PMV for a DE, etc). The scouting information utilizes a 0.0 to 5.0 scale in .1 incriments. Each position is grouped into a positional group. QBs are their own positional group. The other pairings are RB/FB, WR/TE, OL, DL, LB, DB, and K/P. Each group has their own data sets and criteria for analysis. QBs, for example, are not graded on CTH ability as DBs are not graded on THP ability.

To derrive at the ratings, the scale has a max (5.0), min (0.0), and average (between 5.0 and 0.0). Likewise, all ratings have a max, min, and average. These are matched, graphed, and interpolated to Madden ratings. So, the average QB has a THP grade of 2.5. That number is set to an "average" Madden rating for THP. The max and minimum numbers are also determined based upon the FBG philosophy for ratings. There are several posts in here that include those philosophies so please search the thread.

Now in this case with Welker/Gronk, both players are in the WR/TE group. Therefore, they are graded the SAME WAY for the SAME ATTRIBUTES and assigned grades. Welker graded out higher as a blocker in both PBK and RBK than Gronk, who graded out near the average for all other TEs, but higher than that of just about most WRs. Welker is an outlier. His ability to block is far higher than that of most TEs and WRs. The grades are determined based upon ability only. Scheme, stats, speculation, and guesswork is NOT included to derrive to a grade. It comes down to ability based on the scouting consensus.

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by JMP

Darth Hoodie! I love it. What stands out here is that the ratings aren't universal at all, but contextual; they're based on data gathered mostly in the context of blocking defensive backs or the occasional chip. I'd think that'd make a difference, since no statistics and no data are produced in a vacuum. In any case, I'm proud of Wes, who has proven to be objectively valuable at multiple positions. There's no good reason for him to be rotting on the bench as he is now.

Quote:

Welker does play in the slot against OLBs and Ss/Nickel/Dime backs though right? The scheme should be disregarded, IMO, simply because the grades are based on the ability IF everything was equal and set in a vacuum.

Okay, so now I'm really confused. I thought the purpose of this new rating systems was for universal stats regardless of position because people were disgruntled that a player's ratings change just because you move positions. If that isn't what this discussion is about then, excuse me. However, attributes are contextual as said above and football players are not playing in a vacuum so now I really think this rating system is not usable, again, if the purpose is to have some sort of universal attribute that does not change regardless of the position the player is playing.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

This stuff for me mainly is different because of Welker's size and strength. For example the Redskins moved Niles Paul from WR to TE due to his size being conducive to handle that change. However, I doubt that would have been possible for Santana Moss, lol. Same thing with this Welker at TE scenario, I would think his skill at blocking in the TE position would have to be effected by his size and strength. Another thing is that from the WR position, those blocks are from an upright starting position off the LOS, where as with a TE he would likely be coming off the LOS from a three point stance. So in a nutshell a position change like that would need to consider the difference in technique effecting the skill set of the player. Again though, I think this likely fall more inline with Madden not having enough animation variation but I guess the ratings change when putting players in different positions is meant to account for that. So in a universal ratings system where ratings do NOT adjust when changing positions, I would think that Wes Welker would have to rated lower at blocking than the average TE. Reason being that scale should rating every player, in every rating, based on the best and worst at that rating. So Welker would be on a scale for the best run blockers, not just the best WR/TE run blockers, if that makes sense. I have no idea how to calculate thought since again the scouting data is likely not accounting for technique/blocking stance.

The scouting info does not also account for scheme. Just how well the player blocks when engaged to a variety of defenders. If Welker has inferior size/STR and outblocks a LB on a crack, that will undoubtably inflate his grade. If Gronk on the other hand struggles with edge rusher who may be a bit undersized, that would have the reverse affect. I can't give exact plays for the grading, but I do trust the primary source material and the grading methodology.

Speaking of the methodoloy...I got a few emails about P. Manning's 75 THP for this season. Had some people who couldn't believe it was that low. If you watched that game last night it was very clear that he could not get the ball out fast enough to the seam to avoid those INTs. Lot's of fluttering. I think the guys doing the scouting end are pretty solid.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

Okay, so now I'm really confused. I thought the purpose of this new rating systems was for universal stats regardless of position because people were disgruntled that a player's ratings change just because you move positions. If that isn't what this discussion is about then, excuse me. However, attributes are contextual as said above and football players are not playing in a vacuum so now I really think this rating system is not usable, again, if the purpose is to have some sort of universal attribute that does not change regardless of the position the player is playing.

The system rates all of the RAW ATTRIBUTES (STR, SPD, ACC, AGI, JMP) that are VERIFIABLE universally. All other attributes are related to the position unless that position changes. For a guy like Greg Jennins who has been nothing but a WR his entire career, he is scouted as a WR. For a guy like Brad Smith, he has ratings as both a WR and QB and is scouted that way.

Football players do not play in a vacuum, but they can be evaluated based on individual skill. If Wes Welker and Gronk are given the same amount of chances to block the same player and perform differently while blocking that defender, they will NOT have equal ratings. This, however is not due to one being a WR and one being a TE, but is due to their performance at achieving the block.