FBGRatings Seeks to Recalibrate Madden Ratings, Change Game

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by jfb33

So they have confirmed that they will brought it back? Does they have planned a date to release this? If it's the case, good news!

I did not say that. I said that once it is brought back, then the OVR calcs will be changed. That could be in a patch, next year, or never.

[Mavmoses07]

I'm impressed with the website and all the ratings. Just briefly looking over the ratings I did notice something odd.

It seems that wr's are better blockers than te's in general. As an example I noticed that Wes Welker is a better blocker than Gronk. While Welker might be a good blocker for a wr, I'd don't think he's better than Gronk or any other te for that matter. Seems like even the worst blocking TE should be a better blocker than the best wr blocker.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mavmoses07

I'm impressed with the website and all the ratings. Just briefly looking over the ratings I did notice something odd. It seems that wr's are better blockers than te's in general. As an example I noticed that Wes Welker is a better blocker than Gronk. While Welker might be a good blocker for a wr, I'd don't think he's better than Gronk or any other te for that matter. Seems like even the worst blocking TE should be a better blocker than the best wr blocker.

The scouting info provided for the site grades WRs and TEs on the same plane in several categories. Most TEs grade out far higher as blockers than WRs as you can imagine. Some TEs even grade out as better blockers than OLmen. The FBG system utilizes ratings that are universal regardless of position.

Think about that for a minute. Does a QB suddenly have less THP because he moves to FS? Does a WR block better just because he lines up as a TE in a formation? Does a FB carry the ball better when he lines up as a single back instead of a HB?

Of course not.

The scouts who contributed the information to the site determined that the consensus was that Welker was among the best WRs at blocking. Gronk graded out fairly average for a TE. If you want to see bad blocking ability for a TE, look at Kellen Winslow:

http://www.fbgratings.com/members/profile.php?pyid=2078

Now THAT is bad blocking ability, considering that most WRs have a higher blocking ability.

The bottom line here is that stating that "Seems like even the worst blocking TE should be a better blocker than the best wr blocker" is merely an opinion, unless you can provide data to back that up. The data I have says otherwise. On the 5-point scale for grading run blocking abilities, for example, WRs averaged a 1.0 while TEs averaged 1.8. So to even say that "It seems that wr's are better blockers than te's in general" is also false given the scouting information provided for the site. There are, however, outliers like Welker and Ward (on the high end for WRs) and Winslow and Gates (on the low end for TEs).

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

The scouting info provided for the site grades WRs and TEs on the same plane in several categories. Most TEs grade out far higher as blockers than WRs as you can imagine. Some TEs even grade out as better blockers than OLmen. The FBG system utilizes ratings that are universal regardless of position. Think about that for a minute. Does a QB suddenly have less THP because he moves to FS? Does a WR block better just because he lines up as a TE in a formation? Does a FB carry the ball better when he lines up as a single back instead of a HB? Of course not.... .

ah, but now you've opened up the big can of worms, do ratings reflect base physical skill or effectiveness?

Of course a player's blocking ability doesn't change whether he is a WR or lines up at the TE or even OL position, but expectations on what is a good block does change. If a WRs blocking attribute changes from 42 to 14 because I try to line him up as an OL, I don't think, wow, he didn't forget how to block or lose his blocking ability, but what a person has to do to be a "good" blocker on the OL is completely different than what a person has to do to be a good blocker out in the open field as a receiver.

So, I would think ratings do have to change based on where a person lines up and any system that did not do that would be fundamentally flawed if trying to emulate the nuances of talent on the field. There are reasons why some players thrive at LE but can't play RE for beans

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

ah, but now you've opened up the big can of worms, do ratings reflect base physical skill or effectiveness? Of course a player's blocking ability doesn't change whether he is a WR or lines up at the TE or even OL position, but expectations on what is a good block does change. If a WRs blocking attribute changes from 42 to 14 because I try to line him up as an OL, I don't think, wow, he didn't forget how to block or lose his blocking ability, but what a person has to do to be a "good" blocker on the OL is completely different than what a person has to do to be a good blocker out in the open field as a receiver. So, I would think ratings do have to change based on where a person lines up and any system that did not do that would be fundamentally flawed if trying to emulate the nuances of talent on the field. There are reasons why some players thrive at LE but can't play RE for beans

The expectations for what may be considered to be a "good block" may change upon position, but since all players are rated on the same scale for these attributes, the position has no bearing on the results. All RBs, FBs, WRs, TEs, and OL are rated on the same 0.0-5.0 scale for their blocking abilities. As you can imagine, WRs and RBs are on the 0.0 end of the scale, TEs and FBs are in the middle of the scale, and OL are at the top end of that scale. The scouts graded and designated those grades based on their effectiveness, NOT EXPECTATIONS, in blocking scenarios.

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

The expectations for what may be considered to be a "good block" may change upon position, but since all players are rated on the same scale for these attributes, the position has no bearing on the results. All RBs, FBs, WRs, TEs, and OL are rated on the same 0.0-5.0 scale for their blocking abilities. As you can imagine, WRs and RBs are on the 0.0 end of the scale, TEs and FBs are in the middle of the scale, and OL are at the top end of that scale. The scouts graded and designated those grades based on their effectiveness, NOT EXPECTATIONS, in blocking scenarios.

I need some clarification, (and I must say, I've never been to your site or know what you're trying to do so don't take anything personally, I'm just speaking to attributes in general in a game like Madden) because it doesn't seem like you can base attributes on effectiveness and "not expectations" as you said because the effectiveness of a WR blocking a LB or DB on the outside is just to impede the path of the D to allow that split-second of timing for the RB to get around, but the "effectiveness" of that same WR trying to block a DT on the OL to create a hole would not be nearly as effective, because of the expectations, so again, don't see how you can have a static attribute that measures effectiveness as you said without the expectations of the position he is in at that moment.

Do I just not get it? Because that is always a likely possibility with me

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

I need some clarification, (and I must say, I've never been to your site or know what you're trying to do so don't take anything personally, I'm just speaking to attributes in general in a game like Madden) because it doesn't seem like you can base attributes on effectiveness and "not expectations" as you said because the effectiveness of a WR blocking a LB or DB on the outside is just to impede the path of the D to allow that split-second of timing for the RB to get around, but the "effectiveness" of that same WR trying to block a DT on the OL to create a hole would not be nearly as effective, because of the expectations, so again, don't see how you can have a static attribute that measures effectiveness as you said without the expectations of the position he is in at that moment. Do I just not get it? Because that is always a likely possibility with me

The expectations are different for each position. For a WR, you may only need to get in the way of a defender or take him where he wants to go like in stalk blocking or mirroring. However, the effectiveness as a blocker can be different from player to player. In all reality for a WR on any given run play you may only need a RBK rating of say 30 which is the average RBK rating for a WR in the FBG system. The average BSH rating for a CB in the FBG system is 46, however. So as you can see, it is far more important for the CB to be able to shed that block than it is for the WR to acutally impose it upon the CB, assuming that RBK and BSH are the opposing forces within the battle taking place.

Now, since a WR with average RBK would only have a RBK of 30, you would satisfied with that. After all, the WR's ability to RBK is average. Anything above that is a bonus to an average expectation. However, 30 is also the average ABILITY for an given WR in the system. Not all players are created equal, however, which allows for the Wes Welkers and Hines Wards to exceed what is expected of them. But that expectation does not cap the player's ability. How do we know this? Because if it did, the scouting data would cap out at 1.0 for a WR's RBK on the scouting scale. This is not the case. Welker is at 2.1. His ability in RBK is above the average of a WR on scouting scale (2.1 compared to the average of 1.0). Therefore, he should be rated as such.

The same goes the other way for a TE. If the average RBK for a TE in the scouting scale is 1.8 (far above that of a WR) and Gronk grades out as a 1.8, then he should be rated accordingly. Gronk would exceed the expectations for RBK if he was a WR, but since he is a TE, he is merely average for what he is expected to do at his position. The average RBK for a TE, BTW, is 58, the same as Gronk's rating on the site.

Since all the offensive players aside from QBs are rated using the same scale of 5.0 to 0.0 for RBK, we can normalize and standardize the RBK ability, regardless of a player's position. Here are the averages for RBK for these positions:

HB: 28
FB: 56
TE: 58
WR: 30
OT: 81
OG: 81
C: 77

The expectations for each position may change since "average" is qualified, but not every player meets those averages/expectations at certain positions. Gronk would be a great blocker as a WR compared to the average WR and would exceed those expectations, but may lack in other areas as a WR such as AGI, SPD, and ACC. Welker would be a great blocker if lined up tight as well, but he lacks STR to hold the point of attack in-line to make it as a TE regularly.

I am of the opinion that you can change a player's expectations by moving him from position to position, but you cannot change his ability. Look at the QB/FS comparision I made earlier. A QB may not be expected to have a THP of 80 as a FS, but that doesn't mean he does not possess the ability to throw a ball at that velocity/distance just because he changes his position, especially on a short-term basis.

[Mavmoses07]

In response to your first point, no one's ability is not governed by their position, but odds are a player will play a position best suited to their ratings. You're not going to have someone with P Manning's ability playing DT, or someone with Ngata's ability playing FS.

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Welker would be a great blocker if lined up tight as well, but he lacks STR to hold the point of attack in-line to make it as a TE regularly.

How much does STR determine a successful block? I guess I've always been a little unclear what the STR rating does, if its really that important in determining a success block. I always assumed that the blocking rating is much more important in determining a success block than the STR, but I could be wrong. Would Welker indeed get run over if he lined up as a TE because he has a low STR value? My main point is that if Gronk and Welker were lined up on the line and asked to block a LB, Gronk should have a much higher success rate.

Looking at Welker's ratings, I'd say he fits the mold of a TE better than a WR. He's not fast, just quick. Great receiver in the short passing game and is a good blocker for a TE. His only downside is his STR rating, which again I'm not sure how much this rating matters. If he'd make such a good TE, why hasn't NE switched him to TE yet, let him and Hernandez trade positions?