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RandyBass · 09-12-2012, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyBass


	I think they'd be better off with basic core concepts for pre-snap

I'm gonna do some work here, to try and come up with a basic list of concepts. I love the strategy aspect of football, and while admittedly my knowledge is limited I think I could come up with a decent list.

Found what looks like a decent article on pre-snap movements:

http://xandolabs.com/2011/06/pre-sna...gain-leverage/

A quick glance and I already see something that Madden doesn't have: offensive shifts from one formation to another. Not all NFL teams do this, but some do.

Funny side note, when searching google for pre-snap stuff a ton of Madden links pop up. LOL.

LordTC · 09-12-2012, 07:03 PM

Almost all of Madden's defensive issues come from seven main problems:

1) Improperly modelling angular momentum and blocking. The full engagement model in pass blocking is inaccurate, and terrible for explaining edge pressure. In real life dropping too far back from the pocket is suicide because it makes it impossible for tackles to contain their blocks on the ends. In madden, the Tackles suck up the ends entirely, often not creating that natural angular momentum rush that can result in pressure from behind.

2) Not being able to save plays post-adjustment. You need to be able to audible between schemes without having to do 6 adjustments by hand post-audible. Offensive adjustments are often easier because there is less manual positioning of players.

3) Insufficient number of audibles: If you require one extra button press in an audible you can have 25 options instead of 5. This would enable you to have plays for things like:

Defend Run Left and Run Center. Good right side and deep pass coverage.

With only 5 plays I can't necessarily make the tradeoffs I want against the alignment/personnel I face in the amount of time before the snap. Particularly if the offense reaudibles.

4) Taking away beatable 'nano's'. Watch the NFL sometime.. most 6 man blitzes result in quick throws. If a player isn't willing to use their short outlet or audible at the line when the defense shows pressure then there should be some pressure at the line. If you get slide protection wrong then it's likely to get gap pressure instead of edge pressure.

5) Spectacular DL's and Blitzing LB's seem relatively ordinary in comparison to regular DL and LB's. For WR, TE, and HB's there seem to be massive differences. In particular, there are plenty of players in the NFL who get double teamed in a massive amount of plays, and that should be difficult to handle one-on-one. Particularly with the new trade logic that makes it hard to build a defense of all-super stars, these players should actually be harder to handle. You should be able to add chipping to a tight end's route which slows them down but also helps the tackle against the end, and against players like Allen or Pierre-Paul, life should be very difficult if you don't. If the OL leaves Wilfork 1-1 vs the Center on a play the pocket should be collapsing and the ball should need to come out quickly (unless maybe an RB comes up to support). Adding the right features to the OL coverage, but making it necessary to actually contain dominant players or face problems would go a long way to helping the defense. Each offensive play now has an added element about which tradeoffs to make to handle the dominant defensive players.

7) Backpedalling should have about 1/2 the speed and 1/2 the acceleration of regular movement.

raguel · 09-12-2012, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LBzrule


	7). What is the logic of man coverage swapping at the snap and man align prior to the snap? Too many times guys are switching with me on the snap and I have no clue that that is going to happen. Man align is still a problem. Just play online against people who no huddle and watch the man coverage assignments switch across the field.

Is this still a problem after the patch? BTW, as I said before, I noticed this in beta and it was the primary reason I didn't buy the game.

RandyBass · 09-12-2012, 09:52 PM

Okay so here it is, a proposal for new and more streamlined pre-snap system:

There would be six total pre-snap options for both offense and defense, consisting of contrasting core concepts that augment each play in an attempt to gain an advantage. One of these options would appear on the play calling screen, while the other five would appear at the line of scrimmage.

Here they are, listed next to each other, offense vs. defense:

1. Shifts

This first option would appear on the play calling screen, and would amount to disguising the formation of the play called.

Offense
A simple example of this would be coming out in a tight formation, and then shifting to a spread. The main idea is to keep the defense guessing.

Defense
Same idea here. The defense would line up in one formation, then quickly shift in an attempt to hide just what they are doing. This could mean safeties coming up to the line, then backing off.

The next five would be at the line of scrimmage:

2. Trade vs Line/LB shift

Offense: Trade
Essentially putting one or two guys in motion, but different from motion in that these players are part of the offensive line (like a TE or FB) and "trade" sides. The main intent here is to gain an advantage against the front seven.

Defense: Line/LB shift
The counter to a trade would be to shift either the line or the LBs, so that any advantage gained would be neutralized. The user would select "Trade" from the menu and then either "Line" or "LB" to make the shift.

3. Motion vs LB/DB shift

Offense
Pretty basic fundamental stuff here: put a receiver or back in motion. One thing I'd like to see is for routes to flip, so that out routes stayed out routes when a man motioned to the other side.

Defense
The defense would actually adjust automatically, regardless of zone or man coverage. The wrinkle would be the ability to shift LBs or DBs too. So for example if there was a single safety deep, and a receiver went in motion, the user could slide that safety over by selecting: "Motion" and then "DB" to shift the shell coverage.

4. Blitz pick up vs Bluff blitz

Offense
Here the offense would attempt to read where a blitz was coming from. The user would select "Blitz pick up" from the pre-snap menu, then left or right to provide slide protection. Other options available after choosing "Blitz pick up" would be TE, RB, and/or FB which would assign those guys to help pick up the blitz.

Defense
The defensive counter to this would be Bluff blitz. When choosing "Bluff blitz" the user could then choose left or right, which would try to confuse the offense and force them to change what they are doing.

5. Hot route vs Individual DB coverage

Offense
Hot routes are pretty self explanatory, used to counter blitzes and exploit imbalances.

Defense
This area could use streamlining big time. Way too many button presses to be useful at the moment. This menu option would also read something like "Receiver spotlight" and give the option to focus on one receiver, with things like: press, shade inside/outside, back off, and double coverage. Essentially it would function as a way to nullify certain players and certain routes.

6. Audible vs Audible

Audibles are also self explanatory. The one thing I will say is that the current system is about as archaic as you can get. Even Bart Starr's grandpa ran stuff more complex. I suggest formation specific audibles, ones beyond the four basic ones (quick pass, etc.) and the five you see when selecting "More".

I mean, I'm pretty sure the "More" choices date back to the very first audible system ever used in Madden. We're well past due for an upgrade there.

Specific audibles for specific formations are the way to go, and would also fit into any plans for custom playbooks.

Conclusion

The other aspect of this is how the AI uses all of these things. I propose that easier difficulties use very few pre-snap adjustments, while harder difficulties adjust to what you do pre-snap at a much higher and accurate rate.

Bottom line is this streamlined system would not only be easier to use, it would also be a bit more realistic, with each pre-snap option having a contrasting counterpart on the other side of the ball.

slick589 · 09-12-2012, 10:07 PM

Some things that irk me to no end on defense:

1) suction block against user controlled defenders. If im playing dline or lb im automatically pulled into the oline at the start of the play. Also when controlling a blitzer im automatically engaged with linemen

2) absolutely no resemblence of GAP CONTROL!!! This is defense 101.

3) elite pass rushers get no pressure against LTs. Not asking for a sack every play but give me something.

4) zone defense....wtf happened to it? Half the time it looks like my guys are lost and the other half they dont pay attention to recievers in their zones.

5) pursuit angles. Guys shouldnt be chasing plays to get BEHIND the ball carrier they should be trying to meet him/get in front of him.

6) crash test dummy tackles. Purely cosmetic but unrealistic and ugly.

rdotbush · 09-13-2012, 12:35 AM

All Pro Football 2k8 and NFL 2k5 both have better defensive play calling and application than Madden 13. EA Sports should take a look at it. The way you can audible your your DB's pre-snap to show a certain coverage is more realistic coming from someone who actually played football. Also the seperate D-Line, LB and DB plays make a huge difference. You literaly have 100's of combinations at your disposal and different alignments to show the offense when they come to the line of scrimmage. In my opinion, EA Sports was always #2 on Defense.

Bad_Intentions · 09-13-2012, 12:43 AM

Agree with all. My main gripe is the O line automatically knows who to block seemingly before the ball is snapped. If the de and olb or db are both blitzing the guard always goes to take the DE and the tackle always sucks in the outermost rusher, seemingly immediately. There isn't a split second where the oline reacts to what the dline is doing..they just automatically know presnap.

cmehustle · 09-13-2012, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RandyBass


	Okay so here it is, a proposal for new and more streamlined pre-snap system: There would be six total pre-snap options for both offense and defense, consisting of contrasting core concepts that augment each play in an attempt to gain an advantage. One of these options would appear on the play calling screen, while the other five would appear at the line of scrimmage. Here they are, listed next to each other, offense vs. defense: 1. Shifts This first option would appear on the play calling screen, and would amount to disguising the formation of the play called. Offense A simple example of this would be coming out in a tight formation, and then shifting to a spread. The main idea is to keep the defense guessing. Defense Same idea here. The defense would line up in one formation, then quickly shift in an attempt to hide just what they are doing. This could mean safeties coming up to the line, then backing off. The next five would be at the line of scrimmage: 2. Trade vs Line/LB shift Offense: Trade Essentially putting one or two guys in motion, but different from motion in that these players are part of the offensive line (like a TE or FB) and "trade" sides. The main intent here is to gain an advantage against the front seven. Defense: Line/LB shift The counter to a trade would be to shift either the line or the LBs, so that any advantage gained would be neutralized. The user would select "Trade" from the menu and then either "Line" or "LB" to make the shift. 3. Motion vs LB/DB shift Offense Pretty basic fundamental stuff here: put a receiver or back in motion. One thing I'd like to see is for routes to flip, so that out routes stayed out routes when a man motioned to the other side. Defense The defense would actually adjust automatically, regardless of zone or man coverage. The wrinkle would be the ability to shift LBs or DBs too. So for example if there was a single safety deep, and a receiver went in motion, the user could slide that safety over by selecting: "Motion" and then "DB" to shift the shell coverage. 4. Blitz pick up vs Bluff blitz Offense Here the offense would attempt to read where a blitz was coming from. The user would select "Blitz pick up" from the pre-snap menu, then left or right to provide slide protection. Other options available after choosing "Blitz pick up" would be TE, RB, and/or FB which would assign those guys to help pick up the blitz. Defense The defensive counter to this would be Bluff blitz. When choosing "Bluff blitz" the user could then choose left or right, which would try to confuse the offense and force them to change what they are doing. 5. Hot route vs Individual DB coverage Offense Hot routes are pretty self explanatory, used to counter blitzes and exploit imbalances. Defense This area could use streamlining big time. Way too many button presses to be useful at the moment. This menu option would also read something like "Receiver spotlight" and give the option to focus on one receiver, with things like: press, shade inside/outside, back off, and double coverage. Essentially it would function as a way to nullify certain players and certain routes. 6. Audible vs Audible Audibles are also self explanatory. The one thing I will say is that the current system is about as archaic as you can get. Even Bart Starr's grandpa ran stuff more complex. I suggest formation specific audibles, ones beyond the four basic ones (quick pass, etc.) and the five you see when selecting "More". I mean, I'm pretty sure the "More" choices date back to the very first audible system ever used in Madden. We're well past due for an upgrade there. Specific audibles for specific formations are the way to go, and would also fit into any plans for custom playbooks. Conclusion The other aspect of this is how the AI uses all of these things. I propose that easier difficulties use very few pre-snap adjustments, while harder difficulties adjust to what you do pre-snap at a much higher and accurate rate. Bottom line is this streamlined system would not only be easier to use, it would also be a bit more realistic, with each pre-snap option having a contrasting counterpart on the other side of the ball.

Cosign! I completely endorse this message.

09-12-2012, 07:03 PM	#18
LordTC Rookie OVR: 2 Join Date: Mar 2010	Re: Madden's Defensive Issues Almost all of Madden's defensive issues come from seven main problems: 1) Improperly modelling angular momentum and blocking. The full engagement model in pass blocking is inaccurate, and terrible for explaining edge pressure. In real life dropping too far back from the pocket is suicide because it makes it impossible for tackles to contain their blocks on the ends. In madden, the Tackles suck up the ends entirely, often not creating that natural angular momentum rush that can result in pressure from behind. 2) Not being able to save plays post-adjustment. You need to be able to audible between schemes without having to do 6 adjustments by hand post-audible. Offensive adjustments are often easier because there is less manual positioning of players. 3) Insufficient number of audibles: If you require one extra button press in an audible you can have 25 options instead of 5. This would enable you to have plays for things like: Defend Run Left and Run Center. Good right side and deep pass coverage. With only 5 plays I can't necessarily make the tradeoffs I want against the alignment/personnel I face in the amount of time before the snap. Particularly if the offense reaudibles. 4) Taking away beatable 'nano's'. Watch the NFL sometime.. most 6 man blitzes result in quick throws. If a player isn't willing to use their short outlet or audible at the line when the defense shows pressure then there should be some pressure at the line. If you get slide protection wrong then it's likely to get gap pressure instead of edge pressure. 5) Spectacular DL's and Blitzing LB's seem relatively ordinary in comparison to regular DL and LB's. For WR, TE, and HB's there seem to be massive differences. In particular, there are plenty of players in the NFL who get double teamed in a massive amount of plays, and that should be difficult to handle one-on-one. Particularly with the new trade logic that makes it hard to build a defense of all-super stars, these players should actually be harder to handle. You should be able to add chipping to a tight end's route which slows them down but also helps the tackle against the end, and against players like Allen or Pierre-Paul, life should be very difficult if you don't. If the OL leaves Wilfork 1-1 vs the Center on a play the pocket should be collapsing and the ball should need to come out quickly (unless maybe an RB comes up to support). Adding the right features to the OL coverage, but making it necessary to actually contain dominant players or face problems would go a long way to helping the defense. Each offensive play now has an added element about which tradeoffs to make to handle the dominant defensive players. 7) Backpedalling should have about 1/2 the speed and 1/2 the acceleration of regular movement.

09-12-2012, 09:52 PM	#20
RandyBass MVP OVR: 3 Join Date: Dec 2009	Re: Madden's Defensive Issues Okay so here it is, a proposal for new and more streamlined pre-snap system: There would be six total pre-snap options for both offense and defense, consisting of contrasting core concepts that augment each play in an attempt to gain an advantage. One of these options would appear on the play calling screen, while the other five would appear at the line of scrimmage. Here they are, listed next to each other, offense vs. defense: 1. Shifts This first option would appear on the play calling screen, and would amount to disguising the formation of the play called. Offense A simple example of this would be coming out in a tight formation, and then shifting to a spread. The main idea is to keep the defense guessing. Defense Same idea here. The defense would line up in one formation, then quickly shift in an attempt to hide just what they are doing. This could mean safeties coming up to the line, then backing off. The next five would be at the line of scrimmage: 2. Trade vs Line/LB shift Offense: Trade Essentially putting one or two guys in motion, but different from motion in that these players are part of the offensive line (like a TE or FB) and "trade" sides. The main intent here is to gain an advantage against the front seven. Defense: Line/LB shift The counter to a trade would be to shift either the line or the LBs, so that any advantage gained would be neutralized. The user would select "Trade" from the menu and then either "Line" or "LB" to make the shift. 3. Motion vs LB/DB shift Offense Pretty basic fundamental stuff here: put a receiver or back in motion. One thing I'd like to see is for routes to flip, so that out routes stayed out routes when a man motioned to the other side. Defense The defense would actually adjust automatically, regardless of zone or man coverage. The wrinkle would be the ability to shift LBs or DBs too. So for example if there was a single safety deep, and a receiver went in motion, the user could slide that safety over by selecting: "Motion" and then "DB" to shift the shell coverage. 4. Blitz pick up vs Bluff blitz Offense Here the offense would attempt to read where a blitz was coming from. The user would select "Blitz pick up" from the pre-snap menu, then left or right to provide slide protection. Other options available after choosing "Blitz pick up" would be TE, RB, and/or FB which would assign those guys to help pick up the blitz. Defense The defensive counter to this would be Bluff blitz. When choosing "Bluff blitz" the user could then choose left or right, which would try to confuse the offense and force them to change what they are doing. 5. Hot route vs Individual DB coverage Offense Hot routes are pretty self explanatory, used to counter blitzes and exploit imbalances. Defense This area could use streamlining big time. Way too many button presses to be useful at the moment. This menu option would also read something like "Receiver spotlight" and give the option to focus on one receiver, with things like: press, shade inside/outside, back off, and double coverage. Essentially it would function as a way to nullify certain players and certain routes. 6. Audible vs Audible Audibles are also self explanatory. The one thing I will say is that the current system is about as archaic as you can get. Even Bart Starr's grandpa ran stuff more complex. I suggest formation specific audibles, ones beyond the four basic ones (quick pass, etc.) and the five you see when selecting "More". I mean, I'm pretty sure the "More" choices date back to the very first audible system ever used in Madden. We're well past due for an upgrade there. Specific audibles for specific formations are the way to go, and would also fit into any plans for custom playbooks. Conclusion The other aspect of this is how the AI uses all of these things. I propose that easier difficulties use very few pre-snap adjustments, while harder difficulties adjust to what you do pre-snap at a much higher and accurate rate. Bottom line is this streamlined system would not only be easier to use, it would also be a bit more realistic, with each pre-snap option having a contrasting counterpart on the other side of the ball.

09-12-2012, 10:07 PM	#21
slick589 Banned OVR: 10 Join Date: Nov 2009	Re: Madden's Defensive Issues Some things that irk me to no end on defense: 1) suction block against user controlled defenders. If im playing dline or lb im automatically pulled into the oline at the start of the play. Also when controlling a blitzer im automatically engaged with linemen 2) absolutely no resemblence of GAP CONTROL!!! This is defense 101. 3) elite pass rushers get no pressure against LTs. Not asking for a sack every play but give me something. 4) zone defense....wtf happened to it? Half the time it looks like my guys are lost and the other half they dont pay attention to recievers in their zones. 5) pursuit angles. Guys shouldnt be chasing plays to get BEHIND the ball carrier they should be trying to meet him/get in front of him. 6) crash test dummy tackles. Purely cosmetic but unrealistic and ugly. 48 hours and Jdoug312 like this.

09-13-2012, 12:35 AM	#22
rdotbush Rookie OVR: 0 Join Date: Sep 2012	All Pro Football 2k8 and NFL 2k5 both have better defensive play calling and application than Madden 13. EA Sports should take a look at it. The way you can audible your your DB's pre-snap to show a certain coverage is more realistic coming from someone who actually played football. Also the seperate D-Line, LB and DB plays make a huge difference. You literaly have 100's of combinations at your disposal and different alignments to show the offense when they come to the line of scrimmage. In my opinion, EA Sports was always #2 on Defense. atc43 and Shogun613 like this.

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09-13-2012, 12:43 AM	#23
Bad_Intentions All Star OVR: 17 Join Date: Oct 2002	Agree with all. My main gripe is the O line automatically knows who to block seemingly before the ball is snapped. If the de and olb or db are both blitzing the guard always goes to take the DE and the tackle always sucks in the outermost rusher, seemingly immediately. There isn't a split second where the oline reacts to what the dline is doing..they just automatically know presnap.

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Madden's Defensive Issues