OS Roundtable: Madden NFL 13 Demo Impressions

[comen]

Well put! Couldnt have said it better myself, ty!

[roadman]

Alright, I've played a few more games, and I'm starting to enjoy the demo more each game. It just seems a lot fresher than the last few years.

I've played Madden for 24 years and I'm seeing first time for everything's. Twice tonight, both QB's shrugged off tacklers that came flying at them and still stood upright in the pocket. If that happened in the past, it was either a sack or a wounded duck would come squirting out. Thank you, IE.

Threw a pass up to Vernon Davis streaking down the middle and stretching his whole body out to make the grab and make sure the hands were underneath the ball on the way down. The replay was a thing of beauty to see.

Also, with sliders, I'm seeing both DE's getting pressure, a nice touch vs the last several years.

The game needs more work and improvement from areas I've mentioned before, but I'm liking what I'm seeing at this stage.

I'll see if I can withstand the honeymoon period.

[peylog27]

So... After year 1 in ccm, it will be impossible for Matt Barkley and d Robinson to ever be in the nfl together? If I create one, then create the other... The first one will be deleted?

Instead, I will have to scout some bs qb from Troy named tyson Martinez who is 6 4 with a rocket arm, and I can never change it?

Give the demo a b- in gameplay with some steps in the right direction, but geez, 2012 and thy have to take so much out to add this (demo)..

Suck.

[Jimi XIII]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Alright, I've played a few more games, and I'm starting to enjoy the demo more each game. It just seems a lot fresher than the last few years. To say that the IE has little impact on the game is absurd IMHO. I've played Madden for 24 years and I'm seeing first time for everything's. Twice tonight, both QB's shrugged off tacklers and still stood upright in the pocket. If that happened in the past, it was either a sack or a wounded duck would come squirting out. Also, to say that the catch animations are cosmetic is off, too. Threw one up to Vernon Davis streaking down the middle and stretching his whole body out to make the grab and make sure the hands were underneath the ball on the way down. The replay was a thing of beauty to see. Also, with sliders, I'm seeing both DE's getting pressure, a nice touch vs the last several years. The game needs more work and improvement from areas I've mentioned before, but I'm liking what I'm seeing at this stage. I'll see if I can withstand the honeymoon period.

It is absurd to me as well, and I've been a Madden critic for some time. Suction is practically gone and any physic interaction is finally accounted for.

I had a play were the receiver stumbled after a spin to avoid being taken down and I immediately hit him for a fumble. That most likely would not have happened with the fixed animations of the past. Most likely I would have been subjected to seeing the stumble animation take place and him getting the extra 2 or so yards no matter what I would've tried to do as a defender. I'm seeing ball carriers knocked out the air in hurdling motions, off balanced players getting that extra nudge to knock them down, etc...it's great.

There's been so many of those situations in this game that GREATLY improve the game-play this year. Sure, there's other issues to work but this IE is a VERY necessary addition imo. All the issues I've seen are typically more cosmetic/visual than a negative nuisance on the game-play like the suction & fixed/canned animations of the past.


btw I've also seemed to notice how DEs or LBs get more pressure than DTs this demo so far. As a skeptic, I really can't complain about M13 too much thus far.

[Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Also, to touch upon the mention of pro-tak, the line play and the physics being added as not "neglecting" the run game

That was me who brought that up.

Quote:

let's examine the big elephant in the room now shall we? The only thing that was implemented remotely well of those three was the run blocking, and it's OK. It is still silly at times, and the player movement ruins what is actually done well in that area. The physics gets a pass because it's new, innovative and they made an effort with it in it's first release. It's not that bad for a first try. ProTak was nothing short of an abomination, and to say that it enhanced the realism of the game is embarrassing. The concept was good, but once again, the implementation was poor like most things from Tiburon.

I never Pro-Tak was perfection, but A - go pop in Madden 09 and compare (or whatever the last Madden was before the recently-added run block assignment AI first appeared), and B - find me a team whose offensive line blocks perfectly with its gap / man assignments on every play from scrimmage. That team would never lose.

I completely disagree on the opinion of Pro-Tak, you are selling it severely short. It was a necessary step forward in player interaction, particularly in having collisions be more than one-on-one, or one of the five canned two-on-one gang tackles that Madden used to feature. There were some ridiculous moments, sure, particularly in M10 - the spin-out of the huge pileup comes to mind - but let's look at the system from a fair high-level vantage point here. It was a good, necessary, and logical progression. If I recall, Pro-Tak was also used to help improve offensive line play, allowing for even a rare double-team of a defensive lineman on occasion. Madden 10 would not have been the absolutely-lauded step forward that it was for the series without Pro-Tak.

Quote:

Now, I look at Connected Careers mode, and I see something that looks like a separate company built it. I see amazing depth, polish, attention to detail and passion all exhibited in its creation. It doesn't at all match up with what we get on the field. For the last 5 years we've been told that things like line play, player movement and running were big issues that they were aware of and would be fixed, and here it is 2012 and they are not fixed. Why couldn't those be fixed along with the new things they added?

There are only so many people working on a video game. They can't do everything ever in one cycle. Things get prioritized. Heck, this amazing Connected Careers mode you refer to, it took two years to make, according to Josh Looman himself.

Quote:

Not a whole lot was added to this Madden.

This is simply not true and I will not let this slide.

• Real-time physics
• Connected Careers mode
• total control lead passing mechanic
• meaningful timed passing automatic dropbacks (1-3-5-7 step)
• new tech for receivers catching the football
• Ball Hawk mechanic for defensive backs playing against the pass
• new passing hot routes for running backs / other backfield players
• best-on-best preplay defensive alignment
• route timing windows affect when a receiver is prepared to look for a catch
• reaction-based defense (defender must see ball to react to it)
• all-new audio systems for commentary and crowd
• hundreds of hours of new color commentary from Jim Nantz and Phil Simms, replacing Gus Johnson and Cris Collinsworth
• presentation overhaul
• redesigned frontend user interface
• significant rendering engine improvements (HDR lighting, per-play lighting changes)
• some new stuff into Ultimate Team which probably interests other people but not myself

Quote:

The things that were added were welcomed additions for sure, but it's not enough. There was the big hype for the physics engine (which is still a beta and only affects collisions) and the rest was low hanging fruit that could not have possible taken 9 months to build.

Again, CCM took two years to build, as stated by EA themselves. The systems that EA is leveraging for RTP is probably the same tech that began in FIFA 12, so it technically has been in development for two years as well. Things that are good take time to make.

Quote:

Where are the player movement, the proper line logic and the interaction fixes? Sorry - but people don't deserve a pat on the back for enabling me to throw the ball over a defender in a version 8 next gen football game.

Why not? You couldn't in Madden (with a great deal of success, anyway) before, and you can (with much more success) now. This significantly affects how you the user actively controls and plays the game when passing the football. That is a more necessary and relevant improvement from a video game perspective than offensive line play.

The user never has direct control over anything an offensive lineman may do; he can change assignments with slide protect, but the AI is still going to always play out that assignment regardless of user input. Changes to that end are much more interesting. Similarly to the route timing windows; this actively affects how the user plays the game, because him throwing to a receiver with a dimmed icon (that receiver isn't looking) likely is going to return a negative result. Similarly to the read-and-react defense; if the defender's back is turned, throwing over that defender probably is going to return a positive result because he will never identify the ball. You see where I'm going with this; all these additions directly affect how the user plays the game. Thus, strictly from a video game perspective, they are more important.

This is not me saying the OL-DL play shouldn't get any love; it should. But you simply can't so readily dismiss what has been added to the passing game.

Quote:

All that being said, Madden 13 is certainly not going to be a bad game. It has a lot of potential. However, we are past the point of recognizing potential. I, for one, am sick of that word, and so are a lot of other football nuts. It's time to make the game worthwhile NOW. Madden is not a AAA title that belongs in the same sentence as NHL, FIFA, MLB and NBA. Not even close. A decent game that is fun to play for sure, but not the wowing, powerhouse that we should expect from a powerhouse publisher with a 25 year old product.

Four points addressing this and in closing:

1 - Offering opinions as fact, while fun, doesn't make your opinion any more true than mine.

2 - Madden is objectively a AAA title; that whole AAA - AA - A thing refers solely to the budget of and resources thrown at a project, not the subjective quality of resulting product. To this end, Madden approaches Call of Duty.

3 - What ever happened to judging a game on its own merits? It's fine if you don't like it, but I will never understand the "Madden should be better by now." So should everything else in the universe. Unfortunately, we live in the present; Madden, among other things, is what it is. As such, judge it by what it is and make your purchasing decision accordingly, again based on only what game actually pops up on the screen when you put the disc into your console. That's the only fair way to judge it.

4 - If you've decided Madden NFL 13 is not worth your while after playing the demo, that's a fine opinion to have. I disagree with it, personally, but you have every right to your opinion. That said, why would you continue to spend time playing / analyzing / critiquing something you obviously don't enjoy? There are better ways you could be spending your time.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

That was me who brought that up. I never Pro-Tak was perfection, but A - go pop in Madden 09 and compare (or whatever the last Madden was before the recently-added run block assignment AI first appeared), and B - find me a team whose offensive line blocks perfectly with its gap / man assignments on every play from scrimmage. That team would never lose. I completely disagree on the opinion of Pro-Tak, you are selling it severely short. It was a necessary step forward in player interaction, particularly in having collisions be more than one-on-one, or one of the five canned two-on-one gang tackles that Madden used to feature. There were some ridiculous moments, sure, particularly in M10 - the spin-out of the huge pileup comes to mind - but let's look at the system from a fair high-level vantage point here. It was a good, necessary, and logical progression. If I recall, Pro-Tak was also used to help improve offensive line play, allowing for even a rare double-team of a defensive lineman on occasion. Madden 10 would not have been the absolutely-lauded step forward that it was for the series without Pro-Tak. There are only so many people working on a video game. They can't do everything ever in one cycle. Things get prioritized. Heck, this amazing Connected Careers mode you refer to, it took two years to make, according to Josh Looman himself. This is simply not true and I will not let this slide. Real-time physics Connected Careers mode total control lead passing mechanic meaningful timed passing automatic dropbacks (1-3-5-7 step) new tech for receivers catching the football Ball Hawk mechanic for defensive backs playing against the pass new passing hot routes for running backs / other backfield players best-on-best preplay defensive alignment route timing windows affect when a receiver is prepared to look for a catch reaction-based defense (defender must see ball to react to it) all-new audio systems for commentary and crowd hundreds of hours of new color commentary from Jim Nantz and Phil Simms, replacing Gus Johnson and Cris Collinsworth presentation overhaul redesigned frontend user interface significant rendering engine improvements (HDR lighting, per-play lighting changes) some new stuff into Ultimate Team which probably interests other people but not myself Again, CCM took two years to build, as stated by EA themselves. The systems that EA is leveraging for RTP is probably the same tech that began in FIFA 12, so it technically has been in development for two years as well. Things that are good take time to make. Why not? You couldn't in Madden (with a great deal of success, anyway) before, and you can (with much more success) now. This significantly affects how you the user actively controls and plays the game when passing the football. That is a more necessary and relevant improvement from a video game perspective than offensive line play. The user never has direct control over anything an offensive lineman may do; he can change assignments with slide protect, but the AI is still going to always play out that assignment regardless of user input. Changes to that end are much more interesting. Similarly to the route timing windows; this actively affects how the user plays the game, because him throwing to a receiver with a dimmed icon (that receiver isn't looking) likely is going to return a negative result. Similarly to the read-and-react defense; if the defender's back is turned, throwing over that defender probably is going to return a positive result because he will never identify the ball. You see where I'm going with this; all these additions directly affect how the user plays the game. Thus, strictly from a video game perspective, they are more important. This is not me saying the OL-DL play shouldn't get any love; it should. But you simply can't so readily dismiss what has been added to the passing game. Four points addressing this and in closing: 1 - Offering opinions as fact, while fun, doesn't make your opinion any more true than mine. 2 - Madden is objectively a AAA title; that whole AAA - AA - A thing refers solely to the budget of and resources thrown at a project, not the subjective quality of resulting product. To this end, Madden approaches Call of Duty. 3 - What ever happened to judging a game on its own merits? It's fine if you don't like it, but I will never understand the "Madden should be better by now." So should everything else in the universe. Unfortunately, we live in the present; Madden, among other things, is what it is. As such, judge it by what it is and make your purchasing decision accordingly, again based on only what game actually pops up on the screen when you put the disc into your console. That's the only fair way to judge it. 4 - If you've decided Madden NFL 13 is not worth your while after playing the demo, that's a fine opinion to have. I disagree with it, personally, but you have every right to your opinion. That said, why would you continue to spend time playing / analyzing / critiquing something you obviously don't enjoy? There are better ways you could be spending your time.

Feel free to disagree, as this is a discussion forum. There is only one NFL game, so if I want to critique, I can do it all I want. I also know EXACTLY how best to spend my time, and I don't need an internet tough guy to try and tell me how to do that. If I felt like spending 24 hours a day critiquing Madden, I could, regardless of how you feel about it. In no way did I express my opinion as "Fact" as you say. This is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

I, along with thousands of other football fans can compare Madden to any other football game we choose. It makes perfect sense to most people to compare it to other games that may have had more football elements in certain areas, including past versions of Madden. There is no RIGHT way to judge Madden, and it's completely ridiculous to suggest such a thing. To each their own.

For the record, I'm completely aware that many areas of the game are divided amongst the various sub-teams. That wasn't the point. I'm also aware that CCM took over 2 years to get implemented. When I said not much was added, I was referring to the gameplay side. Allowing you to throw over a defender is not a milestone just because the more recent Maddens did not do it well. That is a bug fix. It's a football game, you can throw a football over the other players on the field. We've been doing it for years in other games.

I'll touch on your point about the offensive line. I think you misunderstood what I meant. Missing assignments and not having "success" on plays is entirely acceptable and welcomed. Spinning around in circles, sliding into place and standing with your hands out in a hunched over position are not.

EDIT: On a side note - Disagreeing with someone on the forum, then going to your twitter page to bad mouth someone's post as an "incoherent rant" because you couldn't understand it shows the maturity of a 5 year old. Everyone on here knows that you think you are superior to everyone that does not share your sentiment of "all things Madden are wonderful", but at least show some form of adulthood when you choose to participate in a public forum. All that being said, please do me the favor of promptly adding me to your ignore list.

[ruggedrum]

Quote: Originally Posted by Feldman011teen

The demo did in fact blow me away. The whole feel is what I imagined football would be in today's regard 15 years ago. The game is beautiful and smooth. The presentation is great. If you're someone that wants a change from recent Madden's get this one. I really can't believe how much flack this demo is getting?

I agree this is clearly the best Madden to date I dont see what people are talking about it being Wacky, I bet they will be front and center at game stop to purchase it and at midnight release too. If they want to complain about something complain about NBA live being quite as a mouse!!!!!

[Goodydog]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Arguably EA has the bold right, given that passing offenses in real life have increased in effectiveness and productivity year after year. Heck, didn't we have three quarterbacks pass for 5000+ last year? I also don't understand how people can possibly say EA has neglected the running game over the years, given Pro-Tak, RTP, and the improvements in line play that were introduced in Madden 10 and Madden 11. Is it where the most demanding fans want it to be yet? Probably not. Should EA continue to work on this area of the game to improve it? Certainly. Can the current implementation it produce a reasonable, believable result and a fun game? Absolutely. Anyone who plays a football game has at least a cursory interest the sport of football. As to credibility of an offered opinion, that has nothing to do with one's taste in sports video games; a person's opinion isn't more or less credible based on if he prefers Madden or something else.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden has always emphasized "the pass" (not just "recently" (to address your reference to the 2011-2012 NFL season) but ALWAYS,). Now, one could argue that the NFL has always focused on the passing aspect of football, but there have been many teams whose offensive philosophies do not revolve around a pass-first offense. To put it plainly, most players play Madden as if they are running a "New England" type offense, and Madden has ALWAYS taken that approach, not just "recently" (I know some will say "EA was ahead of its time ).

I don't think that many people would disagree the assertion that Madden has always neglected "the run" (not just "recently," but ALWAYS (regardless of the listed innovations, Madden's running game was never REFINED/POLISHED). Many teams have an offensive running approach as essential as New Orleans' passing approach, but I haven't seen evidence of this kind of focus in a Madden football game (since Neal Anderson with the Chicago Bears back in Madden 92 on the Sega Genesis; best running back in the game - 15s across the board or close to it).

I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden has never REALLY focused on defense.

I don't think that anyone would disagree with the assertion that Madden hasn't focused on line play (offensive/defensive).

Regarding the whole "credibility" comment, you misunderstood what I attempted to say (probably because it was meant for someone specifically). Someone stated (basically) that if you are not a fan of Madden, you are not a fan of football, implying that if you are critical of Madden then you don't like football. I was simply arguing that some (I) of us Madden critics were (and still are, to some extent) Madden fans.

Though I am a 2K fanboy, I used to be a staunch Madden fan (just like most males back in the early 90s). I was asserting that because I have played both Madden and 2K series (EXTENSIVELY), that I (as well as many other 2K fans who happen to be older) "probably" have a perspective that has developed more "objectively" than some people here who have only played Madden.

Before you retort, please consider the last paragraph above.

Thanks in advance.