Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[JerzeyReign]

No offense, but this seems to technical to implement, at least for this year. Plus, not every LB/DE react the same, you would have to dig into player/position tendencies. If you have a DE like Trent Cole, his only mission is to drop the QB. But then you have a run stuffing DE like Justin Smith. I know they have different schemes (Philly is a 4-3 while SF is a 3-4) but they both won't react the same. Cole will still try to get up field (to turn the play back inside) and Smith will try to push the line back to have the play running from East to West.

If they have players with position tendencies first, then maybe a more 'technical' scheme like this will work.

To fix this current 'Run Blitz' animation jazz, if they have the linemen just move over to the gap to whatever side they are cheating to, it'll look a little better. Linebackers should scrape to whatever direction the play is flowing, therefore that allows misdirection to have a deadly effect. They have to balance it someway. For pass commit, players first goal should be dropping into their zone or locating their man -- in NCAA it seems as if they just stand there like normal, not really giving an advantage to the draw.

But at the end of the day, I'll support this idea. Now that they're coming around to #SimNation, maybe we'll see how deep they're willing to go.

Good idea.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by JerzeyReign

No offense, but this seems to technical to implement, at least for this year. Plus, not every LB/DE react the same, you would have to dig into player/position tendencies. If you have a DE like Trent Cole, his only mission is to drop the QB. But then you have a run stuffing DE like Justin Smith. I know they have different schemes (Philly is a 4-3 while SF is a 3-4) but they both won't react the same. Cole will still try to get up field (to turn the play back inside) and Smith will try to push the line back to have the play running from East to West. If they have players with position tendencies first, then maybe a more 'technical' scheme like this will work.

I would argue the reverse. Get the technical aspects working, then vary the player's responses/execution based on traits in their DPP and ratings. Get the game "to think these terms" when it's resolving plays and the tendencies would be that much more impacting and meaningful while also allowing players who "play by the book" to execute more correctly as well.

Getting the front seven working and playing right would make the tendencies possible. Then when you see someone like Cole "playing 4-3" in a 3-4 scheme, you're compelled to either switch to 4-3, ship Cole off, or try him at 3-4 OLB or just deal with it and try to make it work in your own version of the 3-4. Maybe you'll have a way to make the MLB/Jack work like the 3-4 DE instead, scout bigger OLBs and work your scheme that way, etc.

Things like that are possible, imo, only when the foundation of the front seven is in place.

It'll also look more like a freelancer in the midst of a team-oriented scheme instead of just yet another example of bad gameplay.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by deacon21206

It should be an all out gamble. Not a contain every aspect of the run type scenario. Why because you can't do that in real life. Sure players can read and react, but that alone should net a positive gain for the run because the defense has to decipher what is going on. If olb's are playing the edge then then a play up the middle should net 3 to 5 yards because they don't get to help in time. I like the guessing game and strategy of letting it fly. Look at teams like the ravens or the steelers who play that type of defense. They target gaps and hit them hard. They are aggressive and pays out at times and they miss out at times. If you commit to the run it is no longer a read and react it is an attack. If you guess left there isn't a fail safe for just in case. You bet it all you should stand the chance to lose it all Just hope that the commit features are worth using and not over done. Where they dominate the game. Like if you pass commit it doesn't mean you have every route covered. It just means you are looking for that first. We will see what this year brings.

Let me respond to your comments this way. One, I think you are looking at this from the perspective of Madden/NCAA and not from the standpoint of fundamental read and react defensive football. I will be happy to retract such a statement if you can show me via evidence through some coach or footage that what you are talking about is the case. I can give you countless sources that show that what you are talking about is NOT the case. Second, which is tied to the first comment, I think we are talking about two different things. Third, I think the language of commit might be throwing things off.

First. From the perspective of Madden/NCAA it's always about win and lose and there is no in between. You pick X. I pick Y. Your DE is 92 my OT is 79. Someone/Something is going to win and the other is going to lose. That's way to simplistic and it's just not how football works. Being coached and coaching linebackers it has always been on your read step, read your keys, if the key shows you run then you have a place to go. If the key shows you pass then drop back into coverage. I think this is how this feature should work. The game does not have gap assignments. This would be a "shortcut" way to have something the game does not have, which would be another additional plus.

What you are saying is defensive football is not assignment based and that is just now how most coordinators and players understand it. What I'm saying here is that this feature can be a shortcut to have actually assignments against the run on defense. Otherwise, it is freestyle wheeling and dealing. You don't know who is going where, you can't trust anyone to have back or front side support. It's just random. Nobody in the NFL, NCAA, High School plays that way on a consistent basis. Show me some footage of this. I can show anyone plenty of footage and even break down calls of what I'm talking about. Ultimately, what it boils down to is EA is touting read and react defense in their game this year. Using this feature could enhance that understanding in a realistic way tremendously.

Second, I think we are talking about two different things. From what I read, you are talking about gambling in certain situations. I'm talking about fundamentals of defense. Defensive football players always read first before reacting. Even when they are blitzing they just don't blindly run to an area. They read the lineman and look to see how his body is positioned. Can they get the outside or inside shoulder. Nobody ever blindly guesses on anything.

Third, the language commit might be a problem. In what I'm advocating it's not really a problem. I'm advocating read and react defense, which is what EA is touting this year. No coach on any level teaches commit without a read first. When it's read and react. And the react = commit. You show me instances of players committing without reading first and chances are they are not even in the league. Show me one play where a player committing to something without reading it first. You can get the Ray Lewis play on Sproles and I will tell you Lewis read and diagnosed the play first then he gambled/committed. HE even said so in the post game interview. It was something he saw on film based on formation and Guard splits. HE read that and then committed. You can show me the play where Polomalu jumped over a pile to stop the run. He still read the play before he committed to it. There is never JUST COMMIT. Commit = REACT. But you can't react intelligently until you READ.

[PGaither84]

I want to sign on.

I just want to throw in that biting on fakes with play recognition is SO important. Madden on last gen was over the top with this at times, but I'll take that over what we have now.

Also, tied into this is the camera. I am not sure about Madden 12 let alone 13, but Last gen did a good job with play fakes to try and fool the opposing users as well. Not only would players bite on a play fake by attackign the HB on a play action or the FB on a Fake FB Drive HB Pitch, but the camera and control icon faked you out too.



I don't want to derail this topic and I will start a new thread, but these are tied together.

[LBzrule]

Let me add. There are still weaknesses in what I wrote here. If the run is going opposite the direction I have my guys reacting, there is only one guy there along with a CB. Even on certain runs going to the side I have my guys reacting, cut back lanes should be possible if you are running zone plays. This is where the EA conditioning has people stuck in thinking. They have developed the game to where if you guys right then you auto stop the run. To me that's not how it should be. If it is a toss right and I have my guys committing right then I might stop the toss. But if it is a wide zone right and I have my guys committing right then that should actually hurt me on the cut back somewhere. Some lane should be open. Inside Zone = same thing. Something should be open via the cut back and if the linebackers get out of there too quickly it should really be open. Counters = same thing. One back side defender who will get blocked then having one or two pulling blockers = trouble. There are still weaknesses even in what I typed, it's just more fundamental and true to life than just having guys arbitrarily run left or right with no sense of what they are doing.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by BezO

This looks like someone that doesn't understand the game trying to duplicate what they think they saw on TV.

And I think that's why you and I weren't invited back to CD events

I couldn't "like" that comment hard enough, so I made this post to say thank you even more.

[Jimi XIII]

To me, it's just a band aid for not having adaptive AI. But I guess it's okay though. It'd be nice if this also meant bringing back the RS to guide receivers or blocks to a specific location again.

[Tyrant8RDFL]

I kind of like the way they have it and this is why. It is a commitment that the defense is making to stop a play. This is why you can't over use this feature at all, and only use it when you absolutely sure.

Like in long yardage situations and long.

To make this thing work with better awareness and assignments will only be abused and make everyone use this feature in calling a defense. Thus making players better at calling a defense then what they really are.

Calling your defense should be totally about your play calling , and not a commit feature.

I like it that it is all or nothing, so this way it can't be abused.

By leaving it this way it really makes you hesitant on calling a run commit to any side, because if you guess wrong then your burnt, and bedfast of this many won't use it as much and trust to calling a more balanced run defense. I think they should not touch it and leave it the way it is.

In the end you don’t have to use it all, and just call your defense. I would love to play someone who uses it every down. By making it better to the point that the defense is smarter with it will only make things worse, and make bad pay callers better. That to me defeats the purpose of play calling.