Madden NFL and the Future of Video Game Sports (Grantland)

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Yes. I agree there have been some mistakes post-Ortiz. I fully expect there to be mistakes post-Cummings and in the future post-Weber (he won't be there forever). If the pattern persists, Cam will be off the dev team in 3 years. Also, the development of MUT didn't come from the dev teams, per se... They were charged with finding a way to make use of new technologies to drive more revenues from DLC and new game sales because the rise of the used game market drastically cuts into EA's profit margin. I can't comment on commentary - I always turn mine OFF and listen to the field sounds instead. I bring don't bring up GameDay when I mention good games because it SUCKED. Yes, GameDay 98 had 3D models but that's where the goodness ended. Despite the eye-candy of the player models - Madden '98 sprites still made it a better game to play and replay. But GameDay 98 was good enough for me to buy GameDay 99 - which remains the only game in any genre that I've ever returned to the store. It wasn't as good as the 98 title. IIRC, that year was the last time I bought a console football game NOT named Madden (that's right, I've never played 2K but I still know a good game when I see it). Later

Pro-tak, fight for the fumble, unfinished online franchise, commentary/sound are just a few examples of poor features just like MUT and Team play is an example of a questionable calls in what the team chose to work on between Madden 10 and 12. They are all equal to Ortiz's additions as far as I can tell. You point out field degradation being a silly thing for the Ortiz team to concentrate, yet fail to mention Ian pointing out animated hand towels and having the proper number of refs make it into Madden 10. I don't see the difference myself.

As for the Gameday series, give some credit where it is due. The Gameday series went downhill fast but 98 was a really good game. A company like EA doesn't take a year off from Madden and lose all those sales to match something that sucks.

[roadman]

KJ;

I wouldn't blame Ian for the hand towels, blame OS.

This place was screaming for them and they put it in.

Otherwise, you are spot on.

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

KJ; I wouldn't blame Ian for the hand towels, blame OS. This place was screaming for them and they put it in. Otherwise, you are spot on.

I don't really blame Ian for the miscues anymore than I believe Ortiz was at fault when he was in charge. I also believe it will continue under Cam Weber.

My point is the same as what I said way back on page 3. I don't get excited to hear about a new lead designer or doubling of the team size because it doesn't seem to matter. It could be the suits deciding on the next 3 year plan or the NFL eliminating animations deemed too violent, idk. Whatever it is, really questionable decisions continue to be made year after year.

[jyoung]

A lot of people thought Gameday was a great game, including EA Tiburon.

From the Grantland article:

Quote:

One of the Madden devs I spoke to still remembers 2K5's day of sneak-attack infamy: "It scared the hell out of us." NFL Gameday proved an arguably tougher opponent (from the same dev who was scared by ESPN NFL 2K5: "We were always nervous about Gameday. We wanted to crush them")

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

Not sure where the disconnect is?

IMO, the disconnect is US. We, the target audience, want and expect vastly different things from our football gaming experience. Because of that, EA is 'chasing it's tail' trying to please everybody everywhere with one product that is packed with features and functions that never seem to get finished...

I imagine EA being a bus driver with 5 million passengers - each with a different destination. One person wants to go to Wyoming, another wants the bright lights of Chicago, while someone else wants to go to the moon. In trying to accommodate everyone's wishes no one ends up where they want to be before the bus runs out of gas. LOL

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

Pro-tak, fight for the fumble, unfinished online franchise, commentary/sound are just a few examples of poor features just like MUT and Team play is an example of a questionable calls in what the team chose to work on between Madden 10 and 12. They are all equal to Ortiz's additions as far as I can tell. You point out field degradation being a silly thing for the Ortiz team to concentrate, yet fail to mention Ian pointing out animated hand towels and having the proper number of refs make it into Madden 10. I don't see the difference myself. As for the Gameday series, give some credit where it is due. The Gameday series went downhill fast but 98 was a really good game. A company like EA doesn't take a year off from Madden and lose all those sales to match something that sucks.

You mention several items that were innovative (just like we asked for) but virtually pointless because they don't appeal to you specifically. I feel the same way about Franchise mode that you feel about the features you listed. I like Team Play and don't think it's a questionable call, but I don't play it because I can't find 2 people I trust to be on my team.

Don't get me wrong, field degradation wasn't a bad thing to concentrate on. It's a nice touch to chew up the field during the game. What was silly was the amount of resources allotted to make it happen. Because so much of the consoles power was dedicated to remembering which section of field had been degraded and by how much, more important things like hitting an airborne receiver were left on the cutting room floor. I blame the Creative Director

Gameday 98 was a ground breaking game - but not what I'd call good. I play for competition which was virtually non-existent on Gameday. It was a struggle to find people to play against and, for me, there is absolutely no thrill in playing the CPU on any game - Madden included.

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

KJ; I wouldn't blame Ian for the hand towels, blame OS. This place was screaming for them and they put it in. Otherwise, you are spot on.

HAND TOWELS!!! I remember that thread. EA listened to the community and delivered on something that had nothing to do with football. GRRRRRR.

Quote: Originally Posted by wEEman33

A lot of people thought Gameday was a great game, including EA Tiburon. From the Grantland article:

Duh!

Of course Tiburon thought Gameday was a great game... Without the original Gameday, "Visual Concepts" produces Madden '96 for the PS1 and EA never cancels the contract and gives Madden '97 to Tiburon.

Later

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

I bring don't bring up GameDay when I mention good games because it SUCKED. Yes, GameDay 98 had 3D models but that's where the goodness ended. Despite the eye-candy of the player models - Madden '98 sprites still made it a better game to play and replay. But GameDay 98 was good enough for me to buy GameDay 99 - which remains the only game in any genre that I've ever returned to the store. It wasn't as good as the 98 title. IIRC, that year was the last time I bought a console football game NOT named Madden (that's right, I've never played 2K but I still know a good game when I see it).

You and me both. I sent GameDay 99 right back where it came from and went back to Madden. Stayed there until 08 when it left PC and begrudgingly gave this console-focused play a chance. And even then, I didn't get 11.

I did play 2k5 (for PS2) and loved it, but the main reason I even got it was the $20 price. I just can't get 2 football games both at $50+. I couldn't do it then or now and since Madden was still on PC then, I stayed with it.

If the situation was the same now, I might be on the 2K boards right now. Who knows.

But as far as new team members or whatnot - I'm in wait-and-see, year-by-year mode. Just like with real life sports teams, new members don't necessarily mean improved performance. Sometimes it works, sometimes you get more of the old with new faces.

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

IMO, the disconnect is US. We, the target audience, want and expect vastly different things from our football gaming experience. Because of that, EA is 'chasing it's tail' trying to please everybody everywhere with one product that is packed with features and functions that never seem to get finished...

Disagree that we all want vastly different things. NFL-like gameplay will placate the vast majority of players of any mode.

But, let's say what we want is very diverse. I don't see that as an excuse.

OOTP can please all the "factions" of it's fan-base - from people who want to run a MLB-style league to people who want fictional setups that, literally, can span the globe, to those who want the college and high school levels represented, to the historical replay type folks. I can, literally, have hundreds of teams handled by the game, tens of thousands of players, all being tracked, along with hidden players you can discover, and everything else.

All with full customization and editing of anything relating to a player. Didn't Ian say that allowing Users to edit players would mess with the code or something? What? It's a number in a database..

MLB the Show seems to do a very good job of the same, and has a better "put yourself in the game" mode (RTTS > Superstar).

Yeah, I know, football is hard. However, they chose that burden themselves. Being an NFL player is hard, doesn't mean we forgive poor play or poor teams. They knew it was hard, and they chose to do it. So do it and do it right. I hold game designers to the same standard. I know it's hard. Programming is hard. It's also a challenge they took upon themselves.

And besides, as a business making a product - you have to expect a diverse customer base (unless you're a niche company). It's like being a fashion designer. Not all women like the same dresses and skirts and blouses and shoes - how often do you hear a designer say "women like too many different things so I can't please them all!" as if to blame the customer base for his own lack of vision or inability to create new lines.

And I think that's what you're doing in a way, blaming us for EA's inability to be more creative in its development and fleshing out the various modes.

I mean, seriously, online, franchise, head-to-head "pick-up" games are pretty much the staple of every non-text sim sports game ever. At the heart, the on-field action is going to be the same in all three. It's still 11-on-11 NFL football. So if that's nailed down, well that takes care of a chunk of all the modes. There's not much more to do for the "pick-up" games and for ranked online matches - you're pretty much done too. That leaves online/offline franchise mode, online team play, and MUT.

From what I understand, MUT is basically the same game, just your team is whatever cards you have in your deck (kinda like football Pokemon), so it's still 11-on-11 football. Online team play is 3 vs 3, no? So just a scaled down NFL football-type game, like doing a 7-on-7 drill. Same concepts, just fewer players.

And franchise mode - why didn't they think of DPP earlier? Or bring roles back earlier? It couldn't literally take them 6 years to say "oh, hey, that role stuff was a half-decent idea".

It's not our fault EA is just now getting Madden to 2005-2006 levels.

It's not our fault that EA doesn't refine anything, but strips it out and replaces it with a new flavor of the year feature.

It's not our diverse interests that dug them in the pit. That's their own design choices.

It's not our fault that they seem to be trying to patch things on top of broken and bloated code. I mean, slow menus? Really? Is it really that hard to tell the PS3 to show a list of numbers? Come on.

They need to strip it down and start over. No, you can't do all that in 9 months, so what they should do is release the "bare bones" game (at a fitting price, maybe try the $20 strategy) that's focused on getting 11-on-11 NFL football right, and then release the rest as DLC when they can flesh it out right. I mean, I love franchise mode, but I can keep stats on a spreadsheet like I did as a kid. If that was the price of getting true NFL-like play, I'd suffer for the cause. Heck, with the way I have to run 32-teams to get something as basic as run/pass ratio right...

I hate to keep bringing up OOTP, but that's what they did to transition between 6 and 7. They took a whole season "off" so that Markus could develop the game to something he thought fitting. And that's basically a one-man "team".

Why can't a big development house accomplish this? Why can't they "take a year off" from developing anything NEW and just IMPROVE what's existing. Take that year to improve the code, make it more efficient. Take the year to implement a couple facets of football intelligence in players. Take that year to add more realistic physics. Tweak the ball physics and and add true player locomation/weight/momentum concepts.

[TNT713]

KB,

After reading your post, I still agree that that we are the reason this game seems to stagnate on as many levels as it does. EA has a definite role, but the game was actually better when there was less community input...

Think about it this way... Once upon a time, before OS. Before MaddenMania. Before MaddenUniversity. Before MaddenOnline.US, we were blissfully playing Madden. Fast forward to now and everyone with an opinion and an butt crack seems to think they know what's best for the series. So instead of getting features and functions that are core to the game of football - we get freakin' eye-candy and card games.

I'll agree, not all women like the same skirts and blouses. That's why clothing designers make different skirts and blouses. In fact, I doubt anyone with any fashion sense would expect to buy a skirt that could also be worn as a blouse (unless there was an 800 number and a 19.95 price tag). Yet, that's what Madden has become - a hodgepodge of modes that no one is completely satisfied with.

EA could make use of the Madden brand to spin off the series by making Madden Franchise and a Madden Head-to-Head version as separate titles to appease the base playing the most popular modes so that the skirt is a skirt and a blouse is a blouse instead of combining them into a hideous monstrosity that doesn't do either as well as expected...

We - the community - have been derailing EA at every turn every year since the first year community input was considered important because they are listening to people whose wishes resemble those of folks that wear skirts and blouses. We literally act like women who ask for something, get it, then once the bird is in hand immediately start longing for the bird in the bush. Not that we are a bunch of chicks - but chicks are notorious for not knowing what they want and we are certainly fitting that mold more often than not as a football gaming community.

For example, I think it's safe to say that nobody has ever played a football video game because it had hand towels. But if you look at OS specifically after Madden '09, you'd think that hand towels were the deal breaker. When we got them on Madden '10, we all realized how utterly dumb the request was in relation to Madden being a better football game.

That's just one example - there are dozens more dumb ideas that make the cut but never should have because EA listens to us and attempts to deliver on our requests. Here's how it goes:

1) We ask for innovations and improvements on esoteric items that aren't core to football.
2) EA delivers innovations and improvements on esoteric items that aren't core to football.
3) WE realize that the innovation and improvements are esoteric and arent' core to football and complain about EA's laziness and ask for other innovations and improvements that aren't core to football.
4) Rinse and repeat

It's frustrating for everyone - me, you, and EA. They literally cannot win. If they give us what we ask for - we complain. If they don't - we complain. If they give us a great feature like Pro-Tak, we consider it a failure if marketing doesn't focus on highlighting it for years at a time...

So I'll be frank, if it aint CORE TO FOOTBALL - table it until everything that is core to football is present in the game. I don't need better looking player models, but I do need better ball physics. I don't need coaches on the sideline, but I do need defensive sideline catches. Focus on the CORE!!!

That said, I'm glad EA listens to the community but they should be far more aware of which parts of the community they listen to and how they listen to them. Sometimes what we ask for isn't really what we want or need.

Take ball trajectory for example, since it's part of the original article (and one of my hot buttons). Instead of steadily changing the trajectory with which balls are thrown as they have for Madden 09, 10, 11, and 12 - make a tutorial to teach people how to control ball trajectory instead. What they don't know hurts EVERYBODY.

EA should assume a role that is more parental in it's approach to Madden and stop giving folks everything they cry for - it results in spoiled brats that scream until they get what they want only to scream for something else as soon as they get it.

Right now, we actually have too many cooks in the kitchen - and it's spoiling my broth.

Later

[Meast21Taylor]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

They need to strip it down and start over. No, you can't do all that in 9 months, so what they should do is release the "bare bones" game (at a fitting price, maybe try the $20 strategy) that's focused on getting 11-on-11 NFL football right, and then release the rest as DLC when they can flesh it out right. I mean, I love franchise mode, but I can keep stats on a spreadsheet like I did as a kid. If that was the price of getting true NFL-like play, I'd suffer for the cause. Heck, with the way I have to run 32-teams to get something as basic as run/pass ratio right... I hate to keep bringing up OOTP, but that's what they did to transition between 6 and 7. They took a whole season "off" so that Markus could develop the game to something he thought fitting. And that's basically a one-man "team". Why can't a big development house accomplish this? Why can't they "take a year off" from developing anything NEW and just IMPROVE what's existing. Take that year to improve the code, make it more efficient. Take the year to implement a couple facets of football intelligence in players. Take that year to add more realistic physics. Tweak the ball physics and and add true player locomation/weight/momentum concepts.

I really wish they would do this, b/c this yearly cycle on a disc isn't working out for the better of the consumers imo.

I'll use the example of games like Starhawk, they released the Beta versions for all of us to play(for a certain cost) and after months of data and improvements, they release it on a disc, after that disc is released, they are still updating w/ patches and DLC every few months or so.
Maybe Madden/EA should consider whats working out for other games and why the consumers are going over to those games, before its too late.