Madden NFL and the Future of Video Game Sports (Grantland)

[DJ]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Nice post... While I don't write software, I have a decade of user support experience. I'm sure you'll agree that the USER is always the wildcard. The USER may press the wrong button, but still wants the right thing to happen and will be frustrated when it doesn't even if it's his fault. That said, you said that building code properly takes effort and time. No doubt, the effort is there but how much can you really do within a 9-month cycle - especially when support for the previous title continues after the title release. As odd as it sounds, it makes me nostalgic about the days when there was no after-release support, patches, updates, or online communities to rail against the game... IMO, in the history of console video games, only 3 fall into the category of "GOOD." Super Tecmo Bowl, Madden, and NFL2K - in chronological order. The rest of the pro football gaming choices have ranged from ABYSMAL to barely passable. This speaks to the difficulty of producing a football game... That said, what we have now as a NG football product is a casualty of the first 3 years of NG Madden. Those 1st 3 versions were horrid and it took 3 more years to get back to a 0 point. Madden 12 may have been in our hands years earlier had it not been for the scramble to reverse the course and correct the "Ortiz" years... In essence, the pooch was screwed and the code was built wrong and we are suffering because the game tried to go in a different direction from Madden '06-'08. We're 3 years behind where we ought to be. Later

I'm in agreement with you on this generation of Madden; they've been trying to dig themselves out of a 3-year ditch. With Madden 12, they got close to the surface of where they likely should have been ... back in 2006.

It is what it is at this point. Bringing in Kolbe from SCEA was a HUGE move, imo, for EA and Madden. I think he, along with Cam, get the game to break through the dirt and reach the surface in the next couple of years.

[Meast21Taylor]

Quote: Originally Posted by tfctillidie

IIRC Naturalmotion's game had the GPU calculating it's collisions which I don't believe is the case with Madden. It's silly to deny how much potential that kind of technology has, it was simply designed by a very small team with no real interest in making a good football game, they just wanted to showcase their technology with it. Put that in the hands of a larger team with EA's resources and we might see something incredible, but that's not something we're going to see anytime soon...or ever. So lets not paint a picture that "football games" are like this, EA's style of sports game is like this and creates this difficulty based on it's own design choices. For example, you could free up computing power if the game isn't constantly referencing animations from memory, which in turn frees up space for data which they have explained is a limitation for them in the past. Simply put, EA's way is not the only way to make a game. Their limitations are from their own design.

I watched a few highlights from that game, and it was the 1st time I've seen a football game actually use physics and momentum like that in a video game. They obviously weren't using any of the same stuff as what EA does for Madden.
Makes you hopeful that someday we can see this technology for our favorite sports simulation games.

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Nice post... While I don't write software, I have a decade of user support experience. I'm sure you'll agree that the USER is always the wildcard. The USER may press the wrong button, but still wants the right thing to happen and will be frustrated when it doesn't even if it's his fault. That said, you said that building code properly takes effort and time. No doubt, the effort is there but how much can you really do within a 9-month cycle - especially when support for the previous title continues after the title release. As odd as it sounds, it makes me nostalgic about the days when there was no after-release support, patches, updates, or online communities to rail against the game... IMO, in the history of console video games, only 3 fall into the category of "GOOD." Super Tecmo Bowl, Madden, and NFL2K - in chronological order. The rest of the pro football gaming choices have ranged from ABYSMAL to barely passable. This speaks to the difficulty of producing a football game... That said, what we have now as a NG football product is a casualty of the first 3 years of NG Madden. Those 1st 3 versions were horrid and it took 3 more years to get back to a 0 point. Madden 12 may have been in our hands years earlier had it not been for the scramble to reverse the course and correct the "Ortiz" years... In essence, the pooch was screwed and the code was built wrong and we are suffering because the game tried to go in a different direction from Madden '06-'08. We're 3 years behind where we ought to be. Later

The thing is, they didn't reverse course from the Ortiz years. As others suggested, they could've reworked Madden from scratch for a year or two and released updated versions of an "Ortiz year" game. They didn't. They chose to continue to build off of what was clearly a broken foundation instead.

They have also made mistakes post Ortiz. The horrendous commentary in Madden 12 is based off coding done post Ortiz. The team also chose to get Madden Ultimate Team and Team play off the ground while completely ignoring both online/offline franchise in the process...more choices that delayed the growth of the current core game modes.

You also bring up the only "good" games in football history, but fail to mention Gameday. Whenever I hear about how difficult it is to get Madden right, that game comes to mind. Remember, EA said 3d players weren't possible and 989 proved them wrong. Forgive me if I don't something can't be done because EA says it can't.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

The thing is, they didn't reverse course from the Ortiz years. As others suggested, they could've reworked Madden from scratch for a year or two and released updated versions of an "Ortiz year" game. They didn't. They chose to continue to build off of what was clearly a broken foundation instead. They have also made mistakes post Ortiz. The horrendous commentary in Madden 12 is based off coding done post Ortiz. The team also chose to get Madden Ultimate Team and Team play off the ground while completely ignoring both online/offline franchise in the process...more choices that delayed the growth of the current core game modes. You also bring up the only "good" games in football history, but fail to mention Gameday. Whenever I hear about how difficult it is to get Madden right, that game comes to mind. Remember, EA said 3d players weren't possible and 989 proved them wrong. Forgive me if I don't something can't be done because EA says it can't.

You are right, I just think the transition from LG to NG was a big downfall for them, they weren't ready for it.

No one back then said, double the game play team, either.

Someone has now.

I just hope the new Madden team keeps reading this stuff. The anger from year to year doesn't go away and it won't go away until people are satisfied enough that the game is a better representation of NFL football.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

You are right, I just think the transition from LG to NG was a big downfall for them, they weren't ready for it. No one back then said, double the game play team, either. Someone has now. I just hope the new Madden team keeps reading this stuff. The anger from year to year doesn't go away and it won't go away until people are satisfied enough that the game is a better representation of NFL football.

I think Ortiz made a lot of mistakes, but he wasn't the one making the decisions. Everyone is clear to defend Ian Cummings because he used to hang around here, but no one blames him like they blame Ortiz for everything. What about the colossal fail that was online "franchise"? The decision to make a separate franchise mode on the server... WRONG! The revamping of sideline catches and running animations... We heard Ian mention it 100 times. I showed two videos of him talking about it. One was from 2007, the other 2009. Both were nearly identical talking about how "this year's game finally has it". Really? SMH. Madden 11 was a total fail - basically zero improvements from 10. The whole pro-tak nonsense was an embarrassment as well. Pick which one you want to blame - it's the console, no it's David Ortiz, not it's disk space! You know what? All of it is complete and utter bull. The fact of the matter is, it was the team making the game. They did a lot of things wrong, and they didn't stop after Madden 10. Madden 12 has plenty of problems remaining, but the worst part is, it's the best Madden we've seen in 7 years, which is really sad

Hey, it's a good thing what Cam Weber claims he is trying to do, but Tiburon won't earn any respect from me until I actually see it. Every year is the same set of empty promises and disappointing let downs. We do have Chase and AJ there, which is a really good thing. Doubling the size of the gameplay team? Well, more developers can be good, but it's not everything. I work on a team at my job of 4 total developers, and we churned out an enterprise level product in 11 months. It's got A LOT of great features too. "More" does not always equal "better", so be wary of the fact that it may not translate to better gameplay. The real failure in Madden came when EA wanted to make the game something for "everyone". This is where the whole "greed" thing comes into play. They have a successful franchise in Madden for 20+ years. Now they want to grow it, expand it, etc. etc. When you try to make a game that is suitable for 30 year olds who know football while also try to make that game playable by your average 10 year old, it's not going to work.

Make the game a true simulation, the 10 year olds and the casual pick up and play guy won't know the difference, but the majority of Madden gamers will.

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

I think Ortiz made a lot of mistakes, but he wasn't the one making the decisions. Everyone is clear to defend Ian Cummings because he used to hang around here, but no one blames him like they blame Ortiz for everything. What about the colossal fail that was online "franchise"? The decision to make a separate franchise mode on the server... WRONG! The revamping of sideline catches and running animations... We heard Ian mention it 100 times. I showed two videos of him talking about it. One was from 2007, the other 2009. Both were nearly identical talking about how "this year's game finally has it". Really? SMH. Madden 11 was a total fail - basically zero improvements from 10. The whole pro-tak nonsense was an embarrassment as well. Pick which one you want to blame - it's the console, no it's David Ortiz, not it's disk space! You know what? All of it is complete and utter bull. The fact of the matter is, it was the team making the game. They did a lot of things wrong, and they didn't stop after Madden 10. Madden 12 has plenty of problems remaining, but the worst part is, it's the best Madden we've seen in 7 years, which is really sad Hey, it's a good thing what Cam Weber claims he is trying to do, but Tiburon won't earn any respect from me until I actually see it. Every year is the same set of empty promises and disappointing let downs. We do have Chase and AJ there, which is a really good thing. Doubling the size of the gameplay team? Well, more developers can be good, but it's not everything. I work on a team at my job of 4 total developers, and we churned out an enterprise level product in 11 months. It's got A LOT of great features too. "More" does not always equal "better", so be wary of the fact that it may not translate to better gameplay. The real failure in Madden came when EA wanted to make the game something for "everyone". This is where the whole "greed" thing comes into play. They have a successful franchise in Madden for 20+ years. Now they want to grow it, expand it, etc. etc. When you try to make a game that is suitable for 30 year olds who know football while also try to make that game playable by your average 10 year old, it's not going to work. Make the game a true simulation, the 10 year olds and the casual pick up and play guy won't know the difference, but the majority of Madden gamers will.

I used to blame Ortiz because I heard he was trying to make the game for the tournament crowd and because I truly believe the Madden 10 and 12 were better than 06-09.(yes, people, I know that isn't saying much)

Now, I just blame the whole system instead of pointing the finger at one person. How the heck do I know what goes at in Orlando?

All I know there is a ton of pent up anger year after year because Madden isn't replicating the NFL. I never said more on the team will make it better, but it's a start in the right direction.

I expect the doubters to continue to doubt and the haters continue to hate until the game proves them otherwise.

[TNT713]

Quote: Originally Posted by roadman

I used to blame Ortiz because I heard he was trying to make the game for the tournament crowd and because I truly believe the Madden 10 and 12 were better than 06-09.(yes, people, I know that isn't saying much) Now, I just blame the whole system instead of pointing the finger at one person. How the heck do I know what goes at in Orlando? All I know there is a ton of pent up anger year after year because Madden isn't replicating the NFL. I never said more on the team will make it better, but it's a start in the right direction. I expect the doubters to continue to doubt and the haters continue to hate until the game proves them otherwise.

Gotta disagree completely - but only because I've been to Orlando and had face to face conversations with devs who were working to reverse the course of the series after 3 years of NG creative direction under Ortiz. Whether those 3 dev teams (06-08) were making a game for the tournament crowd or not isn't certain - but they certainly weren't making a game consistent with what we knew as the "Madden" brand. I always assumed there was a 2K influence, but I've since been informed that the "Ortiz 06-08" didn't feel like 2K either.

I played 2 games of Madden '06 on 360 a few days after launch... HORRIBLE isn't strong enough a word to describe how alien the game felt despite having some of the basic controls. The sprint button became more like a "Turbo" when it moved to the trigger, the play call screen, and the movement of the players all felt extremely foreign (not US/Canada foreign - more like US/Borneo foreign).

When Madden '09 came out, so many elements had to be stripped out and rebuilt from scratch to give Madden back it's Madden feel.

Foundational elements as simple as the grass had to be rebuilt because the Ortiz led dev teams felt field degradation was more important enough to usurp the resources that would have been for game play. The result was a game that played STUPID. The flight of the ball was actually designed to move toward a player's hands instead of moving the hands toward the ball...

The dev teams that came after Ortiz, (Ian and Phil moving from LG to NG) couldn't FIX what was broken foundationally - they were forced to SCRAP and REBUILD.

If that's not reversing course, I don't know what is.

Quote: Originally Posted by kjcheezhead

The thing is, they didn't reverse course from the Ortiz years. As others suggested, they could've reworked Madden from scratch for a year or two and released updated versions of an "Ortiz year" game. They didn't. They chose to continue to build off of what was clearly a broken foundation instead. They have also made mistakes post Ortiz. The horrendous commentary in Madden 12 is based off coding done post Ortiz. The team also chose to get Madden Ultimate Team and Team play off the ground while completely ignoring both online/offline franchise in the process...more choices that delayed the growth of the current core game modes. You also bring up the only "good" games in football history, but fail to mention Gameday. Whenever I hear about how difficult it is to get Madden right, that game comes to mind. Remember, EA said 3d players weren't possible and 989 proved them wrong. Forgive me if I don't something can't be done because EA says it can't.

Yes. I agree there have been some mistakes post-Ortiz. I fully expect there to be mistakes post-Cummings and in the future post-Weber (he won't be there forever). If the pattern persists, Cam will be off the dev team in 3 years.

Also, the development of MUT didn't come from the dev teams, per se... They were charged with finding a way to make use of new technologies to drive more revenues from DLC and new game sales because the rise of the used game market drastically cuts into EA's profit margin.

I can't comment on commentary - I always turn mine OFF and listen to the field sounds instead.

I bring don't bring up GameDay when I mention good games because it SUCKED. Yes, GameDay 98 had 3D models but that's where the goodness ended. Despite the eye-candy of the player models - Madden '98 sprites still made it a better game to play and replay. But GameDay 98 was good enough for me to buy GameDay 99 - which remains the only game in any genre that I've ever returned to the store. It wasn't as good as the 98 title. IIRC, that year was the last time I bought a console football game NOT named Madden (that's right, I've never played 2K but I still know a good game when I see it).

Later

[roadman]

Quote: Originally Posted by TNT713

Gotta disagree completely - but only because I've been to Orlando and had face to face conversations with devs who were working to reverse the course of the series after 3 years of NG creative direction under Ortiz. Whether those 3 dev teams (06-08) were making a game for the tournament crowd or not isn't certain - but they certainly weren't making a game consistent with what we knew as the "Madden" brand. I always assumed there was a 2K influence, but I've since been informed that the "Ortiz 06-08" didn't feel like 2K either. I played 2 games of Madden '06 on 360 a few days after launch... HORRIBLE isn't strong enough a word to describe how alien the game felt despite having some of the basic controls. The sprint button became more like a "Turbo" when it moved to the trigger, the play call screen, and the movement of the players all felt extremely foreign (not US/Canada foreign - more like US/Borneo foreign). When Madden '09 came out, so many elements had to be stripped out and rebuilt from scratch to give Madden back it's Madden feel. Foundational elements as simple as the grass had to be rebuilt because the Ortiz led dev teams felt field degradation was more important enough to usurp the resources that would have been for game play. The result was a game that played STUPID. The flight of the ball was actually designed to move toward a player's hands instead of moving the hands toward the ball... The dev teams that came after Ortiz, (Ian and Phil moving from LG to NG) couldn't FIX what was broken foundationally - they were forced to SCRAP and REBUILD. If that's not reversing course, I don't know what is. Later

Not sure where the disconnect is?