Phil Frazier is Leaving EA Sports Tiburon

[BlueNGold]

Quote: Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson

You went to the wrong school homie.

And you came to the wrong forum if you plan on not getting your point across constructively, which is the exact reason guys like Ian and Simon left these boards and killed most of the dev interaction we had.

[Scottdau]

Well then I guess I can kinda understand that.

[jeremym480]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience." I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers. All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

Good post Brian.

Overall, I don't think that the OS community has done that much for Madden over the past few years anyway. Well, outside of the Adembroski, the CD guys, those who contribute to the bugs and glitches thread and those who run franchise test. Outside of that you really just have your regular everyday Madden players just looking to talk to other gamers and those who like to come here and pretend that they help by offering "constructive criticism" yet, don't play Madden. Honestly, if I were a dev I doubt I'd spend any time reading through a bunch of mindless drivel just to read a handful of informative post. It just doesn't seem like time well spent to me.

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by BrianFifaFan

I don't disagree. But I guess that leads me into the classic "chicken or the egg" scenario. Did Ian and Phil come to this site because of all the great ideas and well imformed gamers? If yes, this forum and site will be just fine. And whoever replaces them will continue to seek input. If no, and it was deemed to be too problematic being this close to the people or that this crowd isn't really the target audience to build the game towards, they won't. Still this forum will go on. And I find it hard to believe that it will become a "silly little forum experience." I've always enjoyed the back and forth of the gamers who care about the games far more than the "pearls from on high." It was, by nature, problematic. I guess my fundimetal question is this: Is this forum great because there were a few "somebodys," or a bunch of nobodys? I think the catering to the developers lead to bunch of unwelcome over-moderation to help keep that channel open, as well as a bunch of guys who over-stepped their bounds and took the opportunity to really just take it to a level of familiarity that was innappropriate in downright insulting the developers. All in all, I'd rather just go back to a bunch of "nobodies" that love gaming and have some really great ideas that end up on wishlists that we give to the developers in a way that creates an orderly atmosphere. If they drop in and say "thanks, we got it and we're gonna work on it," cool. All the other day to day stuff is just too high maintenance. The guys who were only here for that aspect of the developer interaction will move on. I actually want the old, pre-Ian era back. IMO, that's why they came here in the first place, the people that made OS forums such a great place to visit. Not the "new and improved OS forums starring live developers!" So bring on the speculation and dreamers, the honest gamers who aren't trying so hard not offend the "special ones." I'm here to talk to gamers and talk about games, not bow in worship at the feet of developers....

And this is the problem with the entire scenario - In what way does being respectful equate with "bowing in worship?"

There are many long term guys here who have been able to deliver their message with the respect of an adult. And on the flip side, there have been many who have not had the same delivery.

OS has changed as the users have changed - you expect more as a gamer and IMHO, Madden has fallen short compared to other sport titles when it comes to delivering what is expected in a sports title in 2010 and on, aside from online franchise. It's not out of the realm of reality to expect that as we open communication with those that work on these games, our users have the ability to not only respectfully get their thoughts and points across but to be able to NOT put their money towards a sub-par product if that's how they feel. Unfortunately they haven't been able to "control themselves" year in and year out, which saddens me. Poor impulse control equates to another year of boring football gaming.

I'm going a bit off the point however, as you are leading me astray! The main point is if I were a developer on Madden I wouldn't want to "jump in the fray" of OS and this is going to lead to circular theme here that I'm predicting now - lack of true developer involvement with this franchise, users becoming frustrated (even more-so) and then asking OS to somehow become the middle man. So you can touch on unwelcome over-moderation where in hindsight the complaint would be about the lack of it had things played out differently.

I guess we will have to see how things develop. These departures can't be valued until you see what transpires as I know many will be saddened by these departures if the series reverts back to what it was.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote:

Honestly, if I were a dev I doubt I'd spend any time reading through a bunch of mindless drivel just to read a handful of informative post. It just doesn't seem like time well spent to me.

Then you haven't done development before. While I don't think personal attacks are acceptable, I do think that developers need to have thick skin. This is work, they shouldn't be out to make friends with everyone. You need to have thick skin. The best thing to do is to be a grown up and not respond to the childish attacks. Part of the job is reading through the crap to get to the jewels. This is the same in all areas of software development. When you start responding or running away from the feedback that is negative, then you are not cut out for this. Ignore the crap and look at the constructive stuff. It's that simple.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Then you haven't done development before. While I don't think personal attacks are acceptable, I do think that developers need to have thick skin. This is work, they shouldn't be out to make friends with everyone. You need to have thick skin. The best thing to do is to be a grown up and not respond to the childish attacks. Part of the job is reading through the crap to get to the jewels. This is the same in all areas of software development. When you start responding or running away from the feedback that is negative, then you are not cut out for this. Ignore the crap and look at the constructive stuff. It's that simple.

I really agree with your post.
I would be very careful about what we call crap. To me criticism about a very specific problem paired with a possible solutions is ideal, especially to a developer. But the generic criticism is just as important. Criticism like "we aren't even back to last gen standards" and "I'll pass this year because of it" is still valuable info to the developer, and especially to the marketing and design. It gives the developers an idea of whether customers are satisfied or not. Sure sales will also, but when there is an exclusive license, sales numbers and customer satisfaction are skewed.

To me, the crap would be the personal insults directed at EA and developers.

[Thomas Jefferson]

Quote: Originally Posted by tazdevil20

Then you haven't done development before. While I don't think personal attacks are acceptable, I do think that developers need to have thick skin. This is work, they shouldn't be out to make friends with everyone. You need to have thick skin. The best thing to do is to be a grown up and not respond to the childish attacks. Part of the job is reading through the crap to get to the jewels. This is the same in all areas of software development. When you start responding or running away from the feedback that is negative, then you are not cut out for this. Ignore the crap and look at the constructive stuff. It's that simple.

This x1000. I really do feel for both sides here. On the one hand, you obviously can't run an effective forum when you allow idiotic trolls to run wild and mindlessly bash whatever they feel is deserving of it, which to them is usually anything and everything in sight. Even as a part-time EA ***** myself, mindless bashing is simply unbearable, and the decision to flush it out was absolutely the right one. But you also have to realize that it got to that point for a reason. The trolls and haters may do nothing but troll and hate, but unfortunately for the past 6 years they've also had "scoreboard", so to speak. The Madden hate has been one hundred percent warranted. It may have been excessive and counter-productive, but it was also warranted. The series on this gen has been a colossal failure. So while there is really no use for the excessive hate, it's also not surprising on a forum about EA's football games. I see no problem with bashing if it's:
1. warranted
2. non-repetitive
3. purposeful
4. coherent

One quick fix I can think of would be requiring all members to post in coherent and grammatically sound sentences. This would force people to think about their post, because god knows they don't do that by themselves. Spitting out language that is hardly recognizable towards a developer, or anyone for that matter, should be a crime punishable by death.

And as for the developer in this thread who said he and the others were scared away by harsh criticism, well tazdevil20 said it perfectly. Have some thicker skin. It's the internet, and I can't imagine someone who is able to get develop Madden is not able to recognize a stupid troll and just move past it. Direct interaction between the developer and the fan base is a golden opportunity for both sides, and I would hate to see it go to waste because a few brainless trolls were too harsh.

[Pared]

Let's get back to the thread - this thread shouldn't turn into a discussion on the Madden board in general.

Thanks fellas.