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Sundown2600 · 09-30-2010, 03:43 PM

Apparently Codemasters have issued a statement in response to consumer concerns about the game.

Hi everyone.

As you are aware work is on-going towards a patch for the game, and we will release details on this as we move through the patch creation process. Your constructive feedback has been invaluable in helping us both identify and work to resolve issues with the game, and we appreciate your detailed posts.

Some of the identified issues have led (understandably) to people making assumptions about the game that are not accurate, so we felt that in order to reassure you and explain better the process which we are going through at the moment, we’d address a few common queries, in particular relating to AI. In putting this post together, we spoke to various people from across the development team, including the leads and specialists who are working directly on addressing the issues that have been raised.

The AI system implemented in F1 2010 is very complex, and is certainly not scripted in any way. Every AI driver is trained with a series of race behaviours such as overtaking, defending a position and slipstreaming etc. On top of these behaviours we have a unique set of characteristics. These characteristics are defined per driver so you’ll notice some subtle differences. Some drivers are better at race starts or are better at overtaking (they look for narrower gaps), or are better in the rain, or are more aggressive, or are better around certain race tracks. We also have a system which can make certain drivers have a particularly good or bad race depending on a number of factors. All of this driver variance is of course combined with the cars themselves also having varying levels of performance.

It’s also important to note that in order to make the tracks as richly detailed as they are, we use far more textures than the consoles can physically hold. As with many games, we actively stream in and out textures based on the position of the player. This, plus the fact we don't simulate many visual effects on the far side of the track from the player - a "level of detail” system employed to save valuable processor time - would mean there would be a significant pop or delay if we were to allow you to switch cameras between drivers on track.

Practice & Qualifying AI
In practice & qualifying (P&Q) there are two fundamental issues which have meant that we had to make some implementation decisions for the AI in F1 2010. These two issues are our jump-to-sector feature and the fast-forward feature that is available on the car monitor in the garage.

The jump-to-sector feature necessarily simulates teleporting a car instantly to a position while the fast-forward feature allows the player to speed up time. The latter prevents us from simulating the actual AI travelling around the track 100% of the time as we cannot accurately simulate 24 cars where we have accelerated the passage of time by as much as a factor of 30. An F1 car can move at over 200mph. With 30 times speedup, we cannot simulate car physics at 6000+mph without losing some fidelity. F1 cars obviously cannot move this fast. We therefore implemented a system whereby the AI times in such circumstances are calculated based on a ‘football management” style simulation model. Using this model all of the race factors, such as the car, driver, weather, tyres, engine, track conditions, traffic are all taken into account and a lap time is produced. These generated times are well considered and guided by a huge amount of data; they are not randomly generated. Nevertheless they remain simulated approximations using this model.

For P&Q sessions we spent a long time experimenting with flipping back and forth between this simulated system and actual AI physical timing, as the fast-forward is engaged and disengaged, but it lead to the potential for subtle exploits which we were not comfortable with. Therefore all AI times in these P&Q sessions use this simulation method.

Race AI
As none of the above feature restrictions are relevant in the race itself, we DO NOT use any other systems in the race other than the AI cars all physically driving the race just as the player does. Other factors also contribute to the AI lap times and the variation in their race pace. These include race start behaviours, their ultimate race pace which takes into account elements such as fuel and tyre degradation, weather, conserving / cooling engines etc, their in and out laps in the pit stop phase and their finishing pace.

We have seen several email and forum threads which suggest that an AI car’s performance is determined by where they are positioned currently in the race, or where they are in relation to the player which absolutely isn’t the case.

Based on some of the feedback we’ve received we are looking into the variation of AI race pace, as well as working hard to address as many of the following issues as possible in the upcoming patch, which aren’t AI specific but are adding to the assumptions that we are using fake or scripted AI:

Pit Stop
Several pit stop issues have been reported;
The AI not making a mandatory pit stop during a dry race of 20% or more
The player being forced to wait in the pits before being released
The player or AI cars becoming stuck in the pit lane
The use of flashback breaking the AI pit strategies
We’re currently investigating each of these issues and recognise that these would have a significant impact on the way that the race pans out. As ever with fixing these issues it’s a case of finding out how to repeat the problem so that we can track the issues down and fix them.

Split times
A few of you have correctly spotted that the race leader isn’t always the quickest on the first lap of the race. This is an issue whereby the start line is resetting the AI lap timings rather than everyone’s time being taken from when the start lights go out, which of course should be the case on the first lap.

It’s important to also note that the lap times displayed on screen in F1 2010 are compared to the gap to the leader, rather than being split times to the car in front or behind. They are calculated on the time difference within sectors, on a lap by lap basis. For example, the players lap and individual split times on any given lap is compared to the race leader only.

Track reset
There are a few videos and threads where the AI have been seen to spin off and then teleport around the track. Again this isn’t an intentional component of the AI systems. We have a retrieval system that will reset cars to the track if they manage to get out of the world which is intended for use in a number of scenarios such as violent collisions. In these cases it appears that this retrieval system has fired off by mistake.

Race engineer speech
There are a few issues whereby the information which the race engineer is feeding you in relation to gaps to the car in front seems to be at odds with what is happening in the race. Again this isn’t tied into the AI at all. It’s purely speech logic and triggers.

Fuel simulation and tyre degradation
This has been implemented for both players and AI cars. We’ll investigate the drop offs and see if the numbers need tweaking as part of the patch.

As ever your feedback really helps us track down these issues so many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post up as many details as you have. We have already made significant advances against some of the issues thanks to those of you who have contributed a clear and comprehensive account of problems. We will let you know the full details of what the patch will include and when you can expect it as soon as possible.

Rest assured that we do read the forums and your feedback is extremely important to us.

I applaud them for responding to many of the issues and concerns and I am optimistic about the patch, but I do feel some of the answers were of the PR variety. The omission of split times to the car in front and behind is just mind boggling as the split time to the leader does not help you at all if you are racing guys in the midfield for points. They also denied any form of AI 'scripting' and rightfully so because to do so would be counterproductive to their own aims. Personally I am still on the fence with that issue, so I will leave it alone. Also the explanation for simulated Practice and Qualy times I found very curious as the use of accelerated time in practice and qualy in much older F1 games always seemed to work just fine. Also, if track detail and pretty graphics prevent them from using a decent replay system I say give us a slightly uglier game.

It does look as if all pit stop issues with be addressed. That will help out tremendously in single player mode. Thoughts and opinions on this?

Source: Official statement from the Codemasters team Forum Community Representative
http://community.codemasters.com/for...-response.html

RunN1st · 09-30-2010, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundown2600


	Thoughts and opinions on this?

Codemasters has a solid reputation with the racing community. Bundle that with the fact that folks have been waiting for an F1 Sim for quite sometime and you can see why this title outsold Halo: Reach.

Speaking frankly, testers should have caught many of the issues already found by the community. Some titles that have hosted open/private betas seem to have less bugs when they are released. Let's hope they consider some type of beta group for future releases to ensure bugs are identified early on.

We'll see if folks hold on to the game until a patch is released but from what I've seen in some forums that's not likely.

Bahnzo · 09-30-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RunN1st


	Speaking frankly, testers should have caught many of the issues already found by the community. Some titles that have hosted open/private betas seem to have less bugs when they are released. Let's hope they consider some type of beta group for future releases to ensure bugs are identified early on.

I applaud them for acknowledging the issues with the game, but the proof will come with a patch. I'll reserve judgement until then...there are sure to be some things that can't be addressed with a patch.

I find it hard to believe they didn't know some of these issues before release however. It again comes down to publishers caring more about hitting their release date than actually releasing a quality game. This relying on patches has become a crutch.

lnin0 · 09-30-2010, 05:16 PM

Good response. It was nice the did address some concerns directly as most developers just give a blanket statement. Nobody is going to go line by line through the complaints and promise anything they are not sure they can deliver.

Two things I took away.

Wasn't it obvious to everyone that the P&Q times were simmed due to the accelerate time and skip to track features? I never really doubted the races were 'real' like others nor did I doubt the P&Q was simmed. It seems the game has some bugs but the forums posters screaming about the sky is falling have misread them and blown them way out of proportion. Saddly getting a lot of people to buy in.

He addressed the 'split times' but made no mention of changing this to an accumulated gap time instead. I don't even think 'to the leader' would be an issue as long as they were feeding us accumulated gap time and not just a lap by lap gap.

If you cross the line with a total 14.5 second gap to the leader and the guy above you is 12.0 and the guy below 17.1 - that isn't hard to figure in your head. It is impossible when they are just feeding you +/- fractions of a second per lap and expect you to add yours up over a 30+ lap race not to mention adding up the competition for comparison. If they want to give a current lap S1 and S2 comparison fine; but when we cross the start/finish it needs to give us the total accumulated gap - to the leader or those around us, it doesn't matter.

The other night I was following someone and was lapping slower than them but the splits were just giving me +2 seconds or so a lap. Late in the race my engineer said "so and so is 30 seconds ahead, push it". On screen I was shown +2 seconds. We need that total gap time way more often than the engineer feeds it to us.

Chaos81 · 09-30-2010, 06:21 PM

DarthRambo · 09-30-2010, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JMD


	I'm not sure what system you have the game for but the above info is incorrect as far as the 360 goes.. With the 360 version of the game you can set the car damage under Difficulty Settings. I'm playing with the A.I. on Amateur and I can set the damage to - OFF , VISUAL ONLY , or FULL. Also I have not had any issues with pit stops. Also i love racing games, and this game is an excellent racing game. 9 out of 10.

WOW, just noticed this thanks! I've been playing with "Reduced" rules and flags, "Tyre Simulation" OFF, and "Fuel Simulation" OFF, as well as "Car Damage simulation" VISUAL ONLY!!

Turning these things on to realistic, on and full makes this game much more realistic! I've already been having a blast, can't wait to play now, think I'll start my career over again hahaha

I'm on the PS3 btw...

Lakers 24 7 · 10-01-2010, 02:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG CAROLINA


	Hey Lakers 24/7 What platform are you on? If you are on the 360 leave me your GT so I can link up with you online or anyone else who plays on the 360 can add me or leave your GT here. On a different note, this game is far from unplayable...One thing I have learned is to stay away from the Codemaster forums(that place is one big negative mess right now). It seems like guys are just looking for the bugs instead of finding ways to enjoy it (especially if you plan on keeping the game).

I'm on the PC. Hopefully things pickup though, once the patch comes out I'm sure people will give it another chance.

Also just found out that race2play.com will be hosting F1 2010 seasons so that should be worth checking out.

Behindshadows · 10-01-2010, 07:04 AM

Yeah I just installed the tracks mods and the realistic lighting and sun mod....loving the PC version even more...amazing difference...

Will post a video tomorrow of it for everyone else to see...

Also installed the team Mercedes realistic mod...car looks nice...about to install that new camera mod where you can see almost the whole cockpit.

09-30-2010, 03:43 PM	#321
Sundown2600 Brake less...Go Faster! OVR: 13 Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Houston Texas Posts: 1,364	Re: F1 2010 Impressions (PS3, 360, PC) Apparently Codemasters have issued a statement in response to consumer concerns about the game. Hi everyone. As you are aware work is on-going towards a patch for the game, and we will release details on this as we move through the patch creation process. Your constructive feedback has been invaluable in helping us both identify and work to resolve issues with the game, and we appreciate your detailed posts. Some of the identified issues have led (understandably) to people making assumptions about the game that are not accurate, so we felt that in order to reassure you and explain better the process which we are going through at the moment, we’d address a few common queries, in particular relating to AI. In putting this post together, we spoke to various people from across the development team, including the leads and specialists who are working directly on addressing the issues that have been raised. The AI system implemented in F1 2010 is very complex, and is certainly not scripted in any way. Every AI driver is trained with a series of race behaviours such as overtaking, defending a position and slipstreaming etc. On top of these behaviours we have a unique set of characteristics. These characteristics are defined per driver so you’ll notice some subtle differences. Some drivers are better at race starts or are better at overtaking (they look for narrower gaps), or are better in the rain, or are more aggressive, or are better around certain race tracks. We also have a system which can make certain drivers have a particularly good or bad race depending on a number of factors. All of this driver variance is of course combined with the cars themselves also having varying levels of performance. It’s also important to note that in order to make the tracks as richly detailed as they are, we use far more textures than the consoles can physically hold. As with many games, we actively stream in and out textures based on the position of the player. This, plus the fact we don't simulate many visual effects on the far side of the track from the player - a "level of detail” system employed to save valuable processor time - would mean there would be a significant pop or delay if we were to allow you to switch cameras between drivers on track. Practice & Qualifying AI In practice & qualifying (P&Q) there are two fundamental issues which have meant that we had to make some implementation decisions for the AI in F1 2010. These two issues are our jump-to-sector feature and the fast-forward feature that is available on the car monitor in the garage. The jump-to-sector feature necessarily simulates teleporting a car instantly to a position while the fast-forward feature allows the player to speed up time. The latter prevents us from simulating the actual AI travelling around the track 100% of the time as we cannot accurately simulate 24 cars where we have accelerated the passage of time by as much as a factor of 30. An F1 car can move at over 200mph. With 30 times speedup, we cannot simulate car physics at 6000+mph without losing some fidelity. F1 cars obviously cannot move this fast. We therefore implemented a system whereby the AI times in such circumstances are calculated based on a ‘football management” style simulation model. Using this model all of the race factors, such as the car, driver, weather, tyres, engine, track conditions, traffic are all taken into account and a lap time is produced. These generated times are well considered and guided by a huge amount of data; they are not randomly generated. Nevertheless they remain simulated approximations using this model. For P&Q sessions we spent a long time experimenting with flipping back and forth between this simulated system and actual AI physical timing, as the fast-forward is engaged and disengaged, but it lead to the potential for subtle exploits which we were not comfortable with. Therefore all AI times in these P&Q sessions use this simulation method. Race AI As none of the above feature restrictions are relevant in the race itself, we DO NOT use any other systems in the race other than the AI cars all physically driving the race just as the player does. Other factors also contribute to the AI lap times and the variation in their race pace. These include race start behaviours, their ultimate race pace which takes into account elements such as fuel and tyre degradation, weather, conserving / cooling engines etc, their in and out laps in the pit stop phase and their finishing pace. We have seen several email and forum threads which suggest that an AI car’s performance is determined by where they are positioned currently in the race, or where they are in relation to the player which absolutely isn’t the case. Based on some of the feedback we’ve received we are looking into the variation of AI race pace, as well as working hard to address as many of the following issues as possible in the upcoming patch, which aren’t AI specific but are adding to the assumptions that we are using fake or scripted AI: Pit Stop Several pit stop issues have been reported; The AI not making a mandatory pit stop during a dry race of 20% or more The player being forced to wait in the pits before being released The player or AI cars becoming stuck in the pit lane The use of flashback breaking the AI pit strategies We’re currently investigating each of these issues and recognise that these would have a significant impact on the way that the race pans out. As ever with fixing these issues it’s a case of finding out how to repeat the problem so that we can track the issues down and fix them. Split times A few of you have correctly spotted that the race leader isn’t always the quickest on the first lap of the race. This is an issue whereby the start line is resetting the AI lap timings rather than everyone’s time being taken from when the start lights go out, which of course should be the case on the first lap. It’s important to also note that the lap times displayed on screen in F1 2010 are compared to the gap to the leader, rather than being split times to the car in front or behind. They are calculated on the time difference within sectors, on a lap by lap basis. For example, the players lap and individual split times on any given lap is compared to the race leader only. Track reset There are a few videos and threads where the AI have been seen to spin off and then teleport around the track. Again this isn’t an intentional component of the AI systems. We have a retrieval system that will reset cars to the track if they manage to get out of the world which is intended for use in a number of scenarios such as violent collisions. In these cases it appears that this retrieval system has fired off by mistake. Race engineer speech There are a few issues whereby the information which the race engineer is feeding you in relation to gaps to the car in front seems to be at odds with what is happening in the race. Again this isn’t tied into the AI at all. It’s purely speech logic and triggers. Fuel simulation and tyre degradation This has been implemented for both players and AI cars. We’ll investigate the drop offs and see if the numbers need tweaking as part of the patch. As ever your feedback really helps us track down these issues so many thanks to everyone who has taken the time to post up as many details as you have. We have already made significant advances against some of the issues thanks to those of you who have contributed a clear and comprehensive account of problems. We will let you know the full details of what the patch will include and when you can expect it as soon as possible. Rest assured that we do read the forums and your feedback is extremely important to us. I applaud them for responding to many of the issues and concerns and I am optimistic about the patch, but I do feel some of the answers were of the PR variety. The omission of split times to the car in front and behind is just mind boggling as the split time to the leader does not help you at all if you are racing guys in the midfield for points. They also denied any form of AI 'scripting' and rightfully so because to do so would be counterproductive to their own aims. Personally I am still on the fence with that issue, so I will leave it alone. Also the explanation for simulated Practice and Qualy times I found very curious as the use of accelerated time in practice and qualy in much older F1 games always seemed to work just fine. Also, if track detail and pretty graphics prevent them from using a decent replay system I say give us a slightly uglier game. It does look as if all pit stop issues with be addressed. That will help out tremendously in single player mode. Thoughts and opinions on this? Source: Official statement from the Codemasters team Forum Community Representative http://community.codemasters.com/for...-response.html Last edited by Sundown2600; 09-30-2010 at 03:48 PM.

09-30-2010, 05:16 PM	#324
lnin0 MVP OVR: 23 Join Date: Aug 2003 Blog Entries: 4	Re: F1 2010 Impressions (PS3, 360, PC) Good response. It was nice the did address some concerns directly as most developers just give a blanket statement. Nobody is going to go line by line through the complaints and promise anything they are not sure they can deliver. Two things I took away. Wasn't it obvious to everyone that the P&Q times were simmed due to the accelerate time and skip to track features? I never really doubted the races were 'real' like others nor did I doubt the P&Q was simmed. It seems the game has some bugs but the forums posters screaming about the sky is falling have misread them and blown them way out of proportion. Saddly getting a lot of people to buy in. He addressed the 'split times' but made no mention of changing this to an accumulated gap time instead. I don't even think 'to the leader' would be an issue as long as they were feeding us accumulated gap time and not just a lap by lap gap. If you cross the line with a total 14.5 second gap to the leader and the guy above you is 12.0 and the guy below 17.1 - that isn't hard to figure in your head. It is impossible when they are just feeding you +/- fractions of a second per lap and expect you to add yours up over a 30+ lap race not to mention adding up the competition for comparison. If they want to give a current lap S1 and S2 comparison fine; but when we cross the start/finish it needs to give us the total accumulated gap - to the leader or those around us, it doesn't matter. The other night I was following someone and was lapping slower than them but the splits were just giving me +2 seconds or so a lap. Late in the race my engineer said "so and so is 30 seconds ahead, push it". On screen I was shown +2 seconds. We need that total gap time way more often than the engineer feeds it to us.

09-30-2010, 06:21 PM	#325
Chaos81 Hall Of Fame OVR: 38 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Here and there Posts: 17,182 Blog Entries: 3	Re: F1 2010 Impressions (PS3, 360, PC)

10-01-2010, 07:04 AM	#328
Behindshadows CEO - BSG Network OVR: 50 Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 8,052 Blog Entries: 5	Re: F1 2010 Impressions (PS3, 360, PC) Yeah I just installed the tracks mods and the realistic lighting and sun mod....loving the PC version even more...amazing difference... Will post a video tomorrow of it for everyone else to see... Also installed the team Mercedes realistic mod...car looks nice...about to install that new camera mod where you can see almost the whole cockpit.

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F1 2010 Impressions (PS3, 360, PC)