Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

[countryboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by cardsleadtheway

I have agreed with almost everything you have said up to this point. I have played competitive baseball at so many levels for the better part of my life, and still do in fact. If you time a pitch perfectly, and hit it on the sweet spot, you will make solid contact. You won't pop it up and you won't dribble a weak grounder for an easy double play.

I'm not saying you shouldn't make solid contact. But what are you considering the sweet spot? Anywhere in the PCI? If so, then you would be mistaken. I have yet to center the ball perfectly in the PCI ring and not hit the ball solidly. I have, however, hit if off-center in the PCI, and hit grounders, popups, etc.

Quote:

The physics are more than a little off in this game and dependent way too much on attributes. Attributes have to play an important role, but it seems like the attributes take over instead of the physics.I would rather have the frustration of a great pitcher placing the pitch exactly where they want it and possible getting more calls going their way, or a great hitter laying off borderline pitches and crushing the mistake than to have the attributes determine a weak grounder because pitcher A has a H/9 rating that trumps the batters contact rating.

Again, I disagree. I don't view this as attributes taking over or one thing trumping another. I believe that its a formula that is put into place, that leads to the outcome. As I've said to Swaldo, you can't just have the game be based solely on user input and in my opinion, that is what I feel that you and others are alluding to.

[cardsleadtheway]

Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy

I'm not saying you shouldn't make solid contact. But what are you considering the sweet spot? Anywhere in the PCI? If so, then you would be mistaken. I have yet to center the ball perfectly in the PCI ring and not hit the ball solidly. I have, however, hit if off-center in the PCI, and hit grounders, popups, etc. Again, I disagree. I don't view this as attributes taking over or one thing trumping another. I believe that its a formula that is put into place, that leads to the outcome. As I've said to Swaldo, you can't just have the game be based solely on user input and in my opinion, that is what I feel that you and others are alluding to.

Of course I would not consider anywhere in the PCI to be solid. I tend to assume that the center of the PCI, along with feedback locations of "meatball", "perfect", or "wheelhouse", and to a lesser extent "solid" as hitting the sweet spot. Correct me on this if I am wrong.

I never once stated that I want to remove the attributes, just that I would prefer to see the attributes affect the game differently than it does. I have played way too many games to not see attributes take precedent to any and all user input. For that, I prefer to watch real life games. What I would like to see is, as I have stated before, attributes having an effect on things like location and ability to hit well off the sweet spot. I have seen way too many times where great contact is made by a decent player against a great pitcher only to have it turn into a weak grounder to the pitcher or tailor made double play ball, as well as a good hitter taking a mediocre pitcher over the wall on low and away pitches 3 feet off the plate. If you don't believe me, play a two player game and watch what happens to the exact same meatball pitch with various levels of pitchers. It shouldn't be like that. Ratings should play a huge part in the game, but I personally feel that they override the laws of physics.

Now I am not arguing just to argue. This to me is a minor flaw that I can easily overlook (especially when Adam Dunn is taking those low and away pitches over the wall for me). The overall feel of the game is just that incredible. Plus I have an amazing ability to pretend just about anything to compensate for even the slightest lack of realism.

[countryboy]

Quote: Originally Posted by cardsleadtheway

Of course I would not consider anywhere in the PCI to be solid. I tend to assume that the center of the PCI, along with feedback locations of "meatball", "perfect", or "wheelhouse", and to a lesser extent "solid" as hitting the sweet spot. Correct me on this if I am wrong.

Thats how I view it. Center of the PCI with good timing. As I said, I have never looked at the hitting feedback and saw a time where I hit the ball in the center of the PCI with good timing and hit the ball weakly.

Quote:

I never once stated that I want to remove the attributes, just that I would prefer to see the attributes affect the game differently than it does. I have played way too many games to not see attributes take precedent to any and all user input. For that, I prefer to watch real life games. What I would like to see is, as I have stated before, attributes having an effect on things like location and ability to hit well off the sweet spot. I have seen way too many times where great contact is made by a decent player against a great pitcher only to have it turn into a weak grounder to the pitcher or tailor made double play ball, as well as a good hitter taking a mediocre pitcher over the wall on low and away pitches 3 feet off the plate. If you don't believe me, play a two player game and watch what happens to the exact same meatball pitch with various levels of pitchers. It shouldn't be like that. Ratings should play a huge part in the game, but I personally feel that they override the laws of physics.

I wasn't suggesting that you wanted attributes removed, but that you want the user input to have more weight.

As for games played, as you know I've played a ton. And there hasn't been one time where I felt as though the game was producing an outcome just to produce it. I don't know what else to say to that. What I see from the game, I see from games on TV or in my experiences in the years that I played. Maybe the providing of swing information is casting false expectations, I dunno.

I'm not trying to suggest that you are wrong and I am right, just that we are obviously seeing or better yet, viewing the game in two different ways.

[cardsleadtheway]

Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy

I wasn't suggesting that you wanted attributes removed, but that you want the user input to have more weight.

Yes and no. Ideally, I would like the attributes to play more of a role in how a player performs when doing "it" right, and for the player to have to do "it" right in order to get desired results. I know there are instances where someone like Vlad will swing at a ball in the dirt and manage to hit a double, but these are the exceptions not the rule. I guess I feel like the reward for doing something right is not as pronounced as it should be, nor is the punishment for failure. Attributes seem to me to determine the reward and punishment more than doing "it" right does. If you are seeing something different, well then cool. I am not seeing it at such a clip that it makes me want to throw away the game.

As for predetermined outcomes, the only time I feel these exist is in errors and stole bases (although there are times that I want to blame my meltdowns on comeback code, the empirical evidence just doesn't back me up). I have had errors announced before the ball gets to the fielder when I hit the pause button. Now obviously there is no way that I have user input at this point. The same happens for stolen bases. You press a button and let the ratings take over. It matters not when you press the button (save for the jump early steal that only works on humans), all that matters is your ratings.

[swaldo]

Quote: Originally Posted by countryboy

No one is fussy. You've stated throughout the thread that the outcomes are random and predetermined and I've challenged you on them. But instead of addressing them head on, you post, well much like you did with the part I deleted, which is a long drawn out post and does very little to address what one has asked of you.

It doesn't matter if ratings & other factors are filtered through a random number generator or calculated by a formula. Either way each would be set up so long term stats would look the same if you compared them.

So you win and lets say it's a formula, big deal? The discussion was about putting more control in a users hands. Instead, you focus on the fact I said "random" and brought out the little popcorn guy () as if you "got me" or something. If you avoid doing stuff like this and instead stay on the main topic people won't have to drag on with you and turn threads into rubbish.

[Knight165]

Quote: Originally Posted by swaldo

It doesn't matter if ratings & other factors are filtered through a random number generator or calculated by a formula. Either way each would be set up so long term stats would look the same if you compared them. So you win and it's a formula, big deal? The discussion was about putting more control in a users hands. Instead, you focus on the fact I said "random" and brought out the little popcorn guy () as if you "got me" or something. If you avoid doing stuff like this and instead stay on the main topic people won't have to drag on with you and turn threads into rubbish.

Funny....I feel people are having to drag on with you.

Either way...
I feel...if you put too much control in the users hands..........................
..................................getting......... ......................further.............
......................and .................................................. ...................
...........further................................ ......away.............................from....... ....................................SIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMM play!

It's a pretty good balance right now IMO...and should be getting even more difficult IMO.

M.K.
Knight165

[cardsleadtheway]

I think you are right Knight. There will always be a need for balance, and it is pretty good right now. The debate will always exist in any sports game as to how to balance sim versus user control. If you go too far towards user control, well then you have those other arcade games that exist today. If you go too far towards sim, you might as well not buy the game and put the money towards going to the ball park. The Show is a pretty good balance.

The only downside to balance, for me anyway, is that you know those D potential AAAA player types will remain so. You all know the guys I am talking about. That player that you might be the only one of your friends that admits to liking him because he has that hustle to him, or that particular swagger, or maybe the retro mustache or long hair. That guy that you really want to succeed at the highest level, but in you heart know that it ain't gonna happen. Yeah that guy.

[swaldo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Knight165

Funny....I feel people are having to drag on with you. Either way... I feel...if you put too much control in the users hands.......................... ..................................getting......... ......................further............. ......................and .................................................. ................... ...........further................................ ......away.............................from....... ....................................SIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIIIIMMMMMMMMMMMMM play! It's a pretty good balance right now IMO...and should be getting even more difficult IMO.

And this coming from a guy who plays "Manage Only" mode. At least that's what you've said in the past - playing an occassional exhibition game for testing purposes. So basically you prefer a game that looks like a TV broadcast with the statistical accuracy of a text based game.

There's nothing wrong with that and I'm not trying to be confrontational or disrespectfull. But lets face it, the suggestions I made apparently are useless to you because you don't play "arcade" mode. And since you didn't like the ideas I think it's fair to ask why you don't like to play arcade mode?

I like text based games, they are great to play on the road in a laptop. But if I'm at home playing a videogame on a 46 inch HDTV I want to move some sticks! So to me "Manage Only" mode would be too boring, but that's just me. For you though what in arcade mode is lacking so much that it doesn't make you want to play it?