Four Keys to Success for MLB '11: The Show

[Pared]

Quote: Originally Posted by swaldo

This quote is from Wikipedia regarding video compression: "The only difference between one frame and another is the result of either the camera moving or an object in the frame moving. In reference to a video file, this means much of the information that represents one frame will be the same as the information used in the next frame." So if you look at a static camera replay of a flat fastball morphing straight through a bat (which basically has a flat swing as it crosses the plate) I don't understand how this can be skewed? If you're looking at the full information every 4th frame you'd still see the ball on a collision course with the bat. I'm not saying you or countryboy are wrong, but one thing I'd like to know is if the devs confirmed there is absolutely 100% no morphing in the game - or did they just say replay's are at times are inaccurate? I just have a gut feeling that if someone who's a videophile (I'm not) reduced the contact slider all the way down and recorded live action they'd find morphing. It's off topic anyway so we should probably save the whole thing for another day.

Oh no, not a Wikipedia quote!

Seriously though, compression of a video doesn't equate with how they are using. We are referring to calculations and such where the values may be used to recreate the scenario, not a literal video recording that is compressed. You can compress a video file, not the actual execution.

What they could be doing is recording the ball trajectory somewhat near what happened in real-time to and dropping values in certain areas to save space used on the PS3. Just my speculation here. If 1+2+3=6, then maybe they are doing 2+4=6 and that's why you're seeing the same result, with an off-line replication of the ball trajectory.

Just random thoughts being thrown out there.

[HustlinOwl]

After reading what the NBA 2k team has done with their game this year it is simply amazing to think how all of this is possible on an engine that they have been using for more than a decade. Would like to encourage the SCEA team to continue the work they are doing and keep building on what they have established. No need to change or add to gameplay simply tweaking and tightening it up while adding to Franchise mode and visuals will do wonders. This will be my first NBA 2k game since 2k4

[swaldo]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pared

Oh no, not a Wikipedia quote! Seriously though, compression of a video doesn't equate with how they are using. We are referring to calculations and such where the values may be used to recreate the scenario, not a literal video recording that is compressed. You can compress a video file, not the actual execution. What they could be doing is recording the ball trajectory somewhat near what happened in real-time to and dropping values in certain areas to save space used on the PS3. Just my speculation here. If 1+2+3=6, then maybe they are doing 2+4=6 and that's why you're seeing the same result, with an off-line replication of the ball trajectory. Just random thoughts being thrown out there.

I see, I thought replays were literal compressed recordings. I never would've thought they are reenactments. The vibe I was getting is that morphing doesn't exist because there are missing frames you can't see in replay, but nobody can really confirm or deny it unless they record live action replay.

[swaldo]

Quote: Originally Posted by cardsleadtheway

I disagree with you that all fastballs are the same on this game. I have had pitchers throwing in the high 90's that I was able to get around on and crush, while some pitchers with high ratings can throw in the mid 80's and still get me to swing late on it.

Do you think that could be from their whole repertoire though? For example Jamie Moyer slowing your bat down because he's throwing changeups all day. Then, when he finally throws his 80MPH fastball it blows right by you.

One time I did some research on fastball break because I thought it was tied to how the ball moves. I didn't notice any difference in movement at all, and someone told me all the fastball break rating does is effect the CPU batters discipline or something like that.

[Heroesandvillains]

Quote: Originally Posted by swaldo

I don't know why you say I'm "chasing" a randomness theory when there's obviously some sort of dice roll going on under the hood (based various ratings of the players involved etc.) You even confirmed that in your posts and is similiar to text based games - the only difference being you do have some control over the outcome. Anyway, you can have more user control and still have ratings. It would go something like this. Batters Vision rating: You're going to need to bring in something similiar to MVP's "Hitters Eye" system which turns the baseball different colors in the pitcher's hand and leaves a trail as the ball flies through the air toward the plate to aid in hitting. Good hitters can see the colors longer than poor hitters - and some hitters won't be able to see it at all. Batters Contact rating: This one is simple, you increase or decrease the size of the PCI to reflect their rating. For example pitchers (at bat) will have a tiny PCI while Ichiro types will have a large PCI. Batters Power rating: This will be smaller than the contact PCI and will effect distance and trajectory. Batter Discipline rating: This one is tough because the user is basically in contol of discipline. However, you could tie in check swings here. Good hitters would easily be able to check swing while poor hitters would rarely be able to pull it off. Check swings are best with fully loaded swing animations (ala MVP) that's why 2K initially didn't have CW's this year (because swings are pre-loaded so it was tough to program in check swings.) So maybe you'd have fully loaded swing animations for good hitters who can easily check swing, and pre-loaded animations for poor hitters. Of course there are compications with this but I'm just throwing this out there as an idea. Pitcher ratings: tweaking the fastball is the key since over 90% have that listed as thier #1 pitch in the game. Talk to baseball players and they'll tell you ace pitcher's fastballs "Are hard to see" or "Have extra pop" or "Have excellent or sinking movement." In The Show all fastballs look and act the same. They have to make it harder to hit highly rated fastballs, so maybe make it so you can't see the ball out of the hand, or add some movement, or a little extra zip, or make the ball smaller thus harder to hit. Now do the opposite with poorly rated pitches and if you apply this concept to all pitch types you'll have a real challenge at the plate. And good pitchers in general should be painting corners more often, while poor pitchers should be throwing more over the plate or lose control and issue walks. Meanwhile, stamina ratings could stay the same and you can throw out all those other ratings such as H/9, W/9, SO/9 etc. If you throw in true bat/ball physics what you'll have is a system where the user is in control of his own destiny. Players will still have ratings and will perform as they do in real life without all the dice rolls. Yes this would entail a ton of tweaking and adjusting but it can be done.

Swaldo, I fully agree on your contact and power assessments for what you'd like to see in the future. Especially the part in your power write up, where you indicate it would have less of an impact than contact.

I'm a little mixed on the 4-seam fastball revamping. As we all know, movement is already an editable attribute for that pitch. For instance, I can rake all day long against Wade Davis. K-Rod on the other hand...I just can't pick up that guy's number one. I don't see his fastball very well upon release. I'm not certain, but I'd gather his fastball has a higher rated movement.

Granted, predetermined SCEA deliveries, as well as velocity add to this deception. All in all, in response to what you said above, I'd welcome any new addition to the games engine for deception. Currently, there's not enough factors to seperate between top/bottom tier pitchers. A color-trail system and/or a change in ball size is a great idea.

Also, wouldn't it simply make more sense to make pitches rather than a 4-seam fastball some guy's number one. SCEA already does a decent job in pitch selection for aces, but instead of reworking how the 4-seamer moves, how about eliminating it for some guys and replacing it with a cutter, or sinker, or 2-seamer. Or, make the 4-seam the number 4 or 5 pitch when applicable.

I don't think removing the H/9 rating will do anyone any good. No matter how spanked, if a ball is hit directly to one of the eight men in the field, more often then not, that ball is caught. Why isn't H/9 essential for balance?

[cardsleadtheway]

Quote: Originally Posted by swaldo

Do you think that could be from their whole repertoire though? For example Jamie Moyer slowing your bat down because he's throwing changeups all day. Then, when he finally throws his 80MPH fastball it blows right by you. One time I did some research on fastball break because I thought it was tied to how the ball moves. I didn't notice any difference in movement at all, and someone told me all the fastball break rating does is effect the CPU batters discipline or something like that.

Believe me, I have considered that possibility. For me anyway, there are certain players that I just cannot get around on their fastball no matter how early I swing. At first I thought it had something to do with pitching repertoire, the curve ball in particular. I had thought that guys with curveballs had more deceptive fastballs making me always swing late. As the sample size grew, it turned out to not be the case. My current theory has to do with the height of the pitcher. There are some tall pitchers that will blow a 91 mph fastball by me like it is going 97. There was even one pitcher that I can't remember off the top of my head (no one of great renown certainly) that had a changeup that was faster than his fastball. His fastball was 86 and his change was 88. I could not catch up to the fastball, and yet I was always way out in front of the change. That guy was also tall. So my current theory is that the height of the pitcher allows the fastball to get up on you quicker than those that are shorter. That makes sense realistically, but I have no idea if this was programmed into the game. By the way, I play with pitch speed at 0.

[cardsleadtheway]

Quote: Originally Posted by heroesandvillians

I don't think removing the H/9 rating will do anyone any good. No matter how spanked, if a ball is hit directly to one of the eight men in the field, more often then not, that ball is caught. Why isn't H/9 essential for balance?

Because the way the H/9 is implemented on the game makes that stat more important than pitch location/plate success. Real pitchers with good H/9 numbers either pitch to locations that force the batter to hit the ball to someone, have great defenses behind them, or both. On the game, if two pitchers with different h/9 ratings throw the same pitch in the same location against the same batter, the results will be different due to the H/9 rating rather than the afore mentioned circumstances. Physics shouldn't be influenced by ratings. A good sinkerball pitcher should be able to induce a ground ball because the sink was deceptive enough to get the batter to swing on top of it, not because his dice roll was higher than the batter's.

[swaldo]

Quote: Originally Posted by heroesandvillians

Swaldo, I fully agree on your contact and power assessments for what you'd like to see in the future. Especially the part in your power write up, where you indicate it would have less of an impact than contact. I'm a little mixed on the 4-seam fastball revamping. As we all know, movement is already an editable attribute for that pitch. For instance, I can rake all day long against Wade Davis. K-Rod on the other hand...I just can't pick up that guy's number one. I don't see his fastball very well upon release. I'm not certain, but I'd gather his fastball has a higher rated movement. Granted, predetermined SCEA deliveries, as well as velocity add to this deception. All in all, in response to what you said above, I'd welcome any new addition to the games engine for deception. Currently, there's not enough factors to seperate between top/bottom tier pitchers. A color-trail system and/or a change in ball size is a great idea. Also, wouldn't it simply make more sense to make pitches rather than a 4-seam fastball some guy's number one. SCEA already does a decent job in pitch selection for aces, but instead of reworking how the 4-seamer moves, how about eliminating it for some guys and replacing it with a cutter, or sinker, or 2-seamer. Or, make the 4-seam the number 4 or 5 pitch when applicable. I don't think removing the H/9 rating will do anyone any good. No matter how spanked, if a ball is hit directly to one of the eight men in the field, more often then not, that ball is caught. Why isn't H/9 essential for balance?

Movement for a 4-seamer is not editable, check my last post. I tried minimizing and maximizing the break rating and there was no difference in movement at all. The only factors you can change is speed and control - with control probably being the most important unless you're talking about 95MPH plus speed. The only player differences I see with the fastball is location, speed and as you mentioned player specific pitching motions which can throw you off. Most pitchers though have the generic 3/4 motion if I remember correctly.

Fastballs are an interesting thing, catchers will tell you some pitchers throw a "soft ball" and others throw a "hard ball" even though they're the same speed. So I find it amazing when a catcher says a 93MPH fastball lands in his glove nice and softly. I think somehow it would be cool if they can capture the differences with this pitch in the game. Not soft/hard but movement, deception, pop etc.

Regarding #1 pitches I think you're right. The problem is they only allow 5 pitches in the game so that's why most are stuck with the 4 seamer. It's kinda like asking Mariano Rivera "Which would you rather have - your 4 seam, 2 seam or cutter? You can only have one." I didn't even bother mentioning this because Russ said the pitch limitation is not going to change anytime soon. If they opened that up then you could really pimp out some of these pitchers.

Regarding removing the misc stats such as H/9 - As I understand it those are in the game to make the stats more realistic. Basically, it's a big part of the "dice roll" factors going on under the hood. If you have a physics based ball-to-bat engine you wont need them. And fielders would have their own separate ratings. Well actually you'd have to keep them for the sim engine I guess but not live action.

Example: You have a good batter at the plate with good vision and has a nice plump PCI. The pitcher sucks so you see the ball well out of his hand and it's green so you know it's a changeup. The location is good (low & away) but his changeup rating is bad so the size of the ball is large and easier to hit. So you wait on it and swing late hitting the ball to the opposite field for a single. In this scenario what good is a H/9 rating? You controlled the outcome, no calculation was needed.

Now reverse the above scenario - a poor hitter vs a good pitcher with a high rated changeup. The batter doesn't see the color of the ball at all and the size of your PCI and the ball is very small. You swing early and hit a weak grounder off the end of the bat for an out. Big difference here and the best thing is that you can still get a hit if you do everything right! It wouldn't be easy though because your aim and timing would have to be precise, especially with a top changeup with good break and speed.