The Abomination That is Madden Nation

[BezO]

Quote: Originally Posted by Fillycheze

I disagree with the blanket statement that EA is not committed to sim style footall. Madden 2010 features a brand new design team, all of which want to deliver an authentic NFL video game experience. I'm not saying the previous design team didn't, but understand that the Madden audience is incredibly diverse and we need to come up with features that provide a good experience for as many of them as possible.

How can you be committed to sim football AND creating features for a diverse crowd? That method has shorted the sim crowd since... Those committments are contridictory. The casual gamer features DETRACT from the sim experience. You can't do both.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fillycheze

I personally don't enjoy the style of gameplay that is often used in tournament play or on Madden Nation. You will see this sort of game abuse in any product that's used for a competitive event. Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken. Over the years we've brought in guys that compete in these hyper-competitive environments with the purpose of squashing their tactics. It's become a cat and mouse game. We fix one problem and another pops up. We've even had Madden Challenge winners on our QA team to better find these issues before we ship.

You all can't implement AI that makes CPU controlled defenders more effective against plays run a certain number of times? That would at least help deter players from using the same plays over & over, from rolling out EVERY play.

IMO, the bigger problems are the lack of animations and meaningful ratings. If blocking interaction were better, for example, you couldn't roll out and break contain at will. And this has been an exploitable part of the game for years. This hasn't been a noticable issue when you brought these tourney guys in? Why hasn't that been addressed?

And if speed weren't the only factor determining a player's effectiveness, users would feel comfortable implementing styles other than roll out & chuck. Where are the good route running possession WRs & TEs? Where are the dominating run-blocking offensive lines? Give users something to use other than their speed guys.

Those tourney guys use what works. Why not make the football strategies work better than the Madden strategies? Those guys are obviously resourceful. And they will probably discover good football strategy easier than they find exploits. They get a headstart learning football strategy every Sunday.

Quote: Originally Posted by Fillycheze

In a perfect world, we provide a way for all styles of gameplay to exist. There should be a way for our hardcore fans (you) to set up a game that provides the ultimate sim experience. There should also be a place for more casual NFL fans to have a quick pick-up-and-play experience. This is something we've certainly discussed on the team and hope to better solve in the future.

This must be so much harder than we can imagine. Is it that tough to make the game sim, but allow the pick up & play experience on lower difficulties? It seems like you all can't separate sim from difficulty. And why not have sim & arcade modes?

Or maybe my definition of sim is different. To me, sim is not the outcome. It's not the difficulty. It's how you get to the result. It's the feel of the game. How players react, how they move, ect. IMO, you can have a user score 50 on the CPU without the cheesiness and have the game still look like football.

Minnesota/Chicago ended 41 to 48. And it wasn't because of sticky, suction blocking. It wasn't because QBs were able to break contain at will. It wasn't because DBs had eyes in back of their heads. It wasn't WRs breaking on balls they had no idea were coming. It WAS turnovers & opportunistic defense, good routes & poor coverage, good blocking & poor discipline on defense, ect. Why can't you all mimic that for pick up & play users?

IMO, the ONLY difference from the sim crowd, tourney crowd & casual gamer should be what difficulty and or mode they play on. The look & feel of the game doesn't have to change for everyone to have the experience they want.

[PaulZweber]

Quote: Originally Posted by Fillycheze

I disagree with the blanket statement that EA is not committed to sim style footall. Madden 2010 features a brand new design team, all of which want to deliver an authentic NFL video game experience. I'm not saying the previous design team didn't, but understand that the Madden audience is incredibly diverse and we need to come up with features that provide a good experience for as many of them as possible. I personally don't enjoy the style of gameplay that is often used in tournament play or on Madden Nation. You will see this sort of game abuse in any product that's used for a competitive event. Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken. Over the years we've brought in guys that compete in these hyper-competitive environments with the purpose of squashing their tactics. It's become a cat and mouse game. We fix one problem and another pops up. We've even had Madden Challenge winners on our QA team to better find these issues before we ship. In a perfect world, we provide a way for all styles of gameplay to exist. There should be a way for our hardcore fans (you) to set up a game that provides the ultimate sim experience. There should also be a place for more casual NFL fans to have a quick pick-up-and-play experience. This is something we've certainly discussed on the team and hope to better solve in the future. Phil

The bugs that have been there for years are still there. You aren't exactly getting people to have much confidence in you by not releasing the DLC. Good luck making Madden 2010, I might pick it up used a few weeks after release.

[PaulZweber]

As for making two games, we haven't gotten one great game in a long time, I think they should just concentrate on that.

[Trevytrev11]

Quote: Originally Posted by Fillycheze

Let's be honest, if you knew of a tactic that you could run play after play and ultimately get you a real shot at winning $100,000 dollars, wouldn't you do it too? If you think people wouldn't use a glitch or cheese tactic in any other game to win a huge prize, I think you would be mistaken.

But isn't it your guys job to prevent these obvious problems from being possible ? How many years in a row has a below average quarterback been able to drop back 10-15 yards and then throw on the run and hit a receiver perfectly 45 yards downfield who makes a catch in double coverage.

I understand this is a tactic used by a certain part of your audience, but it is only used because the game permits it. The game allows the success of this play to be almost as equal to a QB actually sitting in the pocket, stepping up to avoid the rush and hitting an open receiver.

In reality, the odds of the first situation being successful should be minute compared to the latter, but it's not the case.

I think that much of the cheese gameplay that we see is a product of the patterns that these players have been accustomed to for years. The reason they cheese and exploit the game is because they have never been penalized for doing so by realistic results and because the game allows it.

Maybe I'm overestimating the minds of these players and maybe you are underestimating, but we'll never know because they have never been forced to play football the way it is meant to be played. They have never really been penalized for doing what should be impossible or nearly impossible. Is it possible that after realizing 10 times in a row that rolling out with Chad Pennington and throwing downfield on the run isn't working that the player may be forced to try and stay in the pocket and hit a receiver for a 7 yard gain? Maybe once they realize the improbably isn't working they will learn to play a little smarter. Maybe if you force them to play football, they will play football.

Now you said glitches and tactics, but I'm focusing on tactics as this is what the programming should be trying to stop. True glitches will always come up and I beleive that a true glitch is purely unintentional and just a miss...but a tactic that works over and over when it shouldn't is completely different.

[LingeringRegime]

Bravo!!!! Best article I have read in a long time!

[asu666]

Removing the Turbo button, improving the run game, and highlighting the benefits of staying in the pocket would go a long way towards fixing the gameplay. I miss the clock run down feature in the Xbox/PS2 version too. The one where a play is choosen and the play clock quickly runs down to 20 seconds. Add that in with a timing simular to the way the QB approachs the line in ESPN NFL 2K5 so there is time to make defensive adjustments. The ball almost never gets snapped in the NFL with more than 10 seconds on the play clock. Most of the time there is only a few seconds left when it's snapped. It's a waste of money to have the ESPN license and not put the presentation in the game. Menu presentation is fine, but let's see some ESPN NFL 2K5 style statistical overlays.

[RedskinsGM2B]

Quote: Originally Posted by PaulZweber

As for making two games, we haven't gotten one great game in a long time, I think they should just concentrate on that.

Well, you're exactly right. That's what I'm saying too. They've simply proven, year in & year out that, ONE GREAT, ALL INCLUSIVE, PLEASE EVERYONE, HAVE EVERYTHING game is NOT going to happen. The REASON it's not gonna happen is because they THINK that they can. The reason this game continues to have so many issues, misrepresentations, A(not so)I that doesn't adjust, etc., is because the designers are given this incredibly ridiculous assignment to create a product that embodies EVERYTHING! Problem with that is, all the different aspects that are supposed to attract & please all the different crowds...conflicts with each other. And, due to content/space restrictions, packing in sooo many different bells & whistles forsakes space that could be used to include the work and substance required to transform the current version of this game into what most "NFL" football fans need to see & experience to feel like it's ONE GREAT GAME.
On a completely different disc, without some of the "scientifically exact" interpretations of "NFL" football, you have the world at your feet to create the ONE GREAT GAME for the "Fictional" football fan.
There simply can't be any "effective" focus because the current goal to to have "everything" in there & to have "effective" focus, you must dedicate your attention and effort in ONE direction. As long as EA is trying to produce the "EVERYTHING" game, "NOTHING" will ever be as good as it COULD be.
I say, STOP trying to focus on everything. Stop trying to market a product that "has it all". That's not what we want anyway. The ones that want a dedicated NFL game don't want to play with the likes of the FICTIONAL footballers anyway. So why the need to have it all in one product??? Ahhh...the "overhead" word comes to mind. PROFIT margin is another ugly thing we don't want to admit because it sounds selfish and it doesn't paint EA in a consumer conscious shade, does it?
We are a society of choice. Not to give us that choice is as close to communism as it gets. Ouch! That doesn't sound patriotic either & what's considered the most patriotic sport in the nation? I know...I'm ranting. I'll stop.
Focus on ONE game! Exactly what you say. ONE game. FOOTBALL. If there is a considerate market for "arcade"& casual gamers, have another department focus on that ONE game. I think "arcade" & "casual" gamers can fit under one roof. The result would be ONE GREAT GAME for the "NFL" football crowd & ONE GREAT GAME for the "FICTIONAL" football crowd. Win & Win. There wouldn't be a point where we find that we are "settling" for anything. The quality of EACH game would be superior to any that we've seen in years because the Devs from each product was able to dedicate their entire soul & focus to that ONE specific game that was tailored to its respective demographic. So, I agree completely with that. We do indeed want just ONE GREAT GAME. It's simply a matter of choice. What kind a gamer are you? Well here ya go! The Best Football Game for "YOU"! What's wrong with that? Heck, you might even find that some consumers would cross lines and own BOTH! WHOA! What a concept. Optimizing product quality AND mulitplying potential sales. On THAT day, EA wouldn't need to pay for any exclusive rights because they would be the "ELITE" of BOTH gaming crowds and would still dominate the market. Another win?

[Abar22]

I tuned in for an episode of it. Some guy had the Bengals and he did a FB Dive with Chad Ocho-Cinco. I was embarrassed that someone would even employ such tactics. In all honesty, some of these guys don't even seem that good...