Bird vs Jordan who was goat? context read first
To take some of the emotional reactions out I will say I don't necessarily say Bird was best ever or jordan was not. I think their are multiple players that can be argued as best ever, Jordan,magic,bird,kareem,wilt,Russel and maybe lebron after this years playoffs we will see. I also think
MJ was the best 1v1 player of all time, put him on a court 1v1 vs any of the greats and i say he wins. So this thread is more who was the most valuable player to his team of all time. I believe you put 4 other generic guys around bird and jordan and bird likely wins. I think any of the above names mentioned could be best ever i don't say any one of them is absolutely. But I will argue against Jordan because many say he is auto best ever without even thinking about it witch I disagree fully. I will make case for Bird as among the best ever names i mentioned, simply because he is most often underrated in today's goat discussions, if I can show his case is as good or better than jordans, than he must be considered and jordan questioned as goat.
Bringing Jordan back down to reality/ MJ overrated
I believe Jordan is overrated for many reasons among them
entertainment and athleticism. Many see jordan as better than bird is he will drive the lane, jump high in the air and make a athletic dunk or layup of some sort, something a small % of those watching can do. So they say wow he amazing, I could never do that. Than they watch down the other end of the court and see bird post up take a dribble give his guy a slight bump to create 2 inches of space and hit a faraway and say nice shot but not as great as jordan I could hit that shot sometimes. Or he comes of a screen and hits a 15 footer same thing. But the result is the same 2 points. But because very few can do what jordan can do they say hes better.For example in game 1 1986 round one game bos vs chi commentators says after great athletic move by jordan, wow hes great and its against johnson one of the best defenders in the nba. the other commentator must point out johnson has outscored him 12-4 and jordan is 2/6 that period. we get amazed by his moves/athleticism and dont see results. ALso because he is most popular people tend to think him better than he was because they like him and his style.
Jordan was the most pushed and most popular player to play in NBA, and that effects how people see how “good” he was. Read article below that shows popularity effects how good teams or players are precived.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basket...popularity.htm
Jordan was over hyped
“
This has nothing to do with Jordan's greatness.* It only illustrates how people go out of their way to make him better than he was.”
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/hype.htm
must watch
Michael Jordan is Overrated, Part 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53dn_D6FWBk
Michael Jordan is Overrated, Part 2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5oCGz32_Zg
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/college.htm
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/hype.htm
http://larrylegend.wordpress.com/the...an-phenomenon/
http://larrylegend.wordpress.com/200...-memory-effect
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basketball/bulls/love.htm http://larrylegend.wordpress.com/200...y-loss-effect/
"They are trying to sell today's game, not the game from the 1960's, 70's or 80's."
-Wilt Chamberlain on the NBA at 50 celebration in 1996
What people seem to forget is the
NBA is a business, it was in allot of trouble in the 70's than bird/magic saved the nba. After they retire they needed something to keep it going, enter “the best ever” “ I want to be like mike” buy nike”air” jordan. They needed to fill the void and
marketed him and exaggerated for sales and business. Here was
a great player who played like a streetballer, super athletic,and was fun and exciting to watch, perfect fit.
“Jordan is a spectacular player who is very entertaining.* NBA Commissioner & Marketing Genius David Stern has bent over backwards to promote his current superstars & sell his product.* Jordan is easily David Stern's biggest prodigy.* The NBA is now in the entertainment business more than being a pure competitive sport.”
The NBA's Love Affair with Michael Jordan
No other major sport propagandizes that one particular player is the best ever.* Why is Basketball so different?* Because David Stern is trying to sell his current game by calling Jordan "unquestionably the best ever".* The late Wilt Chamberlain said it best: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever.* Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."* Wilt also went on further to discuss how players of his day did not have the luxury of regular National T.V. broadcasts to promote their talents to the public.* Modern players have the luxuries of chartered jets, first class hotels, modern sports medicine, fewer games on back-to-back nights, illegal defenses, looser rules governing assists, the 3 point line and superstars getting preferential treatment from referees.* 1960's refs freely admit that they let players foul Wilt Chamberlain when he did not have the ball "to help them"defend him. Contrast this with today when superstars are coddled by officials. In spite of all these luxuries afforded to modern players Wilt Chamberlain (who retired 28 years ago) still holds 50 regular season records, many of which are in the untouchable realm.* Contrast this with Michael Jordan who in spite of getting more preferential treatment from officials than any other player in history holds a whopping 4 regular season records.
http://pw1.netcom.com/~bjalas/basketball/bulls/love.htm
Bird and Magic SAVED the NBA. Their rivalry created an interest in basketball that had never been seen (and maybe never will again). But, Bird and Magic couldn't play forever, so the league needed someone to pass the torch to. Enter Michael Jordan, and a marketing force the like nobody had ever seen before from Nike. Then came the "superstar" treatment for one Michael Jordan that no other bball player had the luxury of enjoying (Jordan drives...and it's either 2, and-one, or a foul, it was IMPOSSIBLE that he could actually miss).
I think there are too many factors to account for to name one guy as the GREATEST OF ALL TIME. I would never disagree that Jordan is the best SG of all time though.
So I just wanted to add,people forget that the NBA is a business like any other, in the 70's rating were going down most all teams but 3 or so were losing money. Not alot of talent alot of fights drugs suspensions etc. Than came bird and magic making the NBA alot of money popularity etc than they had to retire and NBA needed something new to replace and as gobigblue1 said nike nba etc created "air" Jordan. Something that finally had me all but stop watching NBA today is, a few years back when lebron was in Cleveland and they lost to Orlando in eastern conference finals. All year the media NBA etc were comparing Bryant and James who is better etc watching the eastern finals you could tell the nba and refs wanted James in finals to face kobe for rating they did everything possible the worse reefed games I had ever seen after that I stopped watching for awhile I cant see it as anything but a business that uses basketball, instead of basketball making a business.
The history of this is covered here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1i1uqu0tE4
and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI
talking of basketball in the 60's
“This was pre-David Stern, pre-Nike and pre-superhuge television contracts”
Great clip of john salley, former jordan teammate,also played against jordan.He says magic,bird and Kareem were all better than jordan.
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=8268567
Salley revealed that if he were able to force MJ to the left with the ball, he wouldn’t pass it and often settle for poor jumpers. He also called his defense overrated and a product of a hand-checking era.
Jordan has ridiculously large mittens, and Spider pointed out that he would use them on his opponent’s stomach to guide them where he wanted them to go. That would not fly in today’s NBA whatsoever.
While some hardcore NBA junkies might agree with Salley that Jordan isn’t the greatest ever (Bill Russell, Magic, Bird and Kareem can have arguments made as the G.O.A.T),
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...a-players-ever
media members admit to
exstream media bias for financial reasons and "could not say anything negative about jordan" and "protected him"
Michael Jordan ESPN Sports Century
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEEHYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&feature=related"&HYPERLINK "http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIY_4vIxGEE&feature=related"feature=related
many in press said when jordan first retired that the bulls would be lucky to win 17 games.They went on to win 57 only 2 less than when jordan played the year before.
Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
I would think that that's a good match. I think people should talk about that match more. Both have very incredible body control, movements and how they score points. I think Elgin is stronger and a
better rebounder, in showmanship in today's market you have to go with jordon, but I have to go with Elgin.
Host Wilt_Chamberlain says:
jordon is easier to market because basketball has now become a game of entertainment as the style of the Harlem Globetrotters. He's a great player in the technical sense, but is also a great showman.
Elgin could do some things that I don't think Michael jordon could do.
“The problem today is you get some people you have never been around a basketball,” he said. “The media now has anointed Michael Jordan the greatest of all time. Is he greatest of all time? No, I don’t think he is. I think he is a great player. There have been other great players as well, great players before I played. Now you have a situation where Pippen is saying (James) could be better than Michael Jordan, and everyone gets so upset by it. All these commentators, did they ever see any of these guys play
Read more:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...#ixzz1wZZWdmfA
“Everybody looks at what you’ve done. Sure he won six championships, Russell won eleven. There are other players on these teams when they play. They don’t play by themselves. Michael Jordan is a great player. Was he the greatest? Ask Kobe that. Ask Bill Russell. Ask Oscar Robertson. Ask Wilt Chamberlain. Ask Elgin Baylor, Jerry West, ask those guys.”
Read more:
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...#ixzz1wZZirtKN
http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/stor...-greatest-ever
Then-Bulls Center Bill Cartwright, for example, is memorably quoted as saying that Jordan is, "Maybe the greatest athlete ever to play any sport...He's just not a basketball player."
Phil Jackson says he’d take Bill Russell over Michael Jordan to start his team (Video)
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...004452630.html
Julius Erving says Micheal jordan is not a top 5 NBA player of all time. He said he was not as great a champion as Russel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlmmNDXWzjI
former jordan teammate and nba scoring champ George gervin left jordan off his all time starting 5.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzTeszStPVs
kareem said oscar robertson would beat jordan 1v1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fV4sUVCgddA
gary payton says john stockton was harder to guard than Jordan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJCwyh0fDGw
Jordan chosen as 5th best 80's player [ Larry second]
1980's Stats:*31.1 PPG, 5.5 APG, 5.8 RPG, 50.5 FG%
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...he-80s/page/23
Arguments that Jordan was better
Jordan was better defender/ Bird made his team better defensively than Jordan
Jordan the better individual defender, Bird the better team defender [seen as best help defender in league in his day]
Birds deference helped team more than Jordan’s.
The Celtics went from 19th in league in defense before bird, to 4th in defense his rookie year. When bird missed the 88-89 season with injury, the teams defense went slightly down.
The bulls defense was better without jordan after his first retirement in his prime during the 93-94 season. The bulls defense went down when he joined his rookie year.
the shooting percentage of the league has declined every year since 1989, so it is only logical to assume that even with Jordan, the shooting percentage of the team would decline, and without him it would greatly decline, correct? Not surprisingly, the Bulls' opponents shot worse (fg% and PPG) in 1994 (no Jordan) than in 1993 (with Jordan).
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
bulls def rating went from 106.1 to 102.7 [lower is better] when jordan left. ppg allowed 98.9 - 94.9.
while the overall defense ratings and points allowed got worse for the Celtics when bird was out.
when jordan entered the league the bulls teams defense went down from def rating of 10th and points allowed 9th, down to 20th and 11th.
Pippen also made the All-Defensive team with Chicago, Portland and Houston . He played great defense no matter where he was... In fact, he made the all-defensive team FOUR times WITHOUT having Jordan as a teammate. Jordan never made the all-defensive team without Pippen. Now, who made who better?Jordan's defense was definitely overrated to a certain extent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3X274lz3... (Iverson was a rookie). The Bulls were never recognized as a good defensive team during Jordan's first couple of years with the team. It wasn't until they acquired Grant and Pippen that Jordan even MADE the all-defense team.
Jordan also hurt his team [not stats] by leaving his man to go double down for steals/blocks. Watch the 86 and 97 playoffs vs c's to see how it hurts the team.
Bird is also remembered as an excellent defender. While he was neither fast nor quick-footed, and could not always shut down an individual player one-on-one, he consistently displayed a knack for anticipating the moves of his opponent, allowing him to intercept passes and create turnovers. His 1,556 career steals ranks 27th all-time.Unspectacular but effective defensive moves, such as jumping into a passing lane to make a steal or allowing his man to step past and drive to the hoop, then blocking the opponent's shot from behind, were staples of Bird's defensive game. In recognition of his defensive abilities, Bird was named to three All-Defensive Second Teams
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Bird
Contrary to popular belief, Larry Bird was a great defender, he has a defensive rating higher than Jordan, Magic, Lebron, Kobe and Pippen. He is also 24th all time in steals per game. Larry Bird led the league in Defensive Win Shares 4 times in his career: 1980, 81, 84 & 86. He is also 25th All Time in Defensive Win Shares.
"Many will try to tell you that Larry Bird was slow and couldn't play defense, they are uneducated morons." - Yea people kept making that case to me in the Jordan v Bird debate and then I looked at the stats and started watching how great he was on defense and I'm like oh yea, that's just a Jordan jocker myth. He was a great transition defender. If it was a 3 on 1 break, I'd want Bird to be the defender. Also, he pioneered and define help defense as we know it today.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7Ixy8Uttq0
John Salley [Played against and was a teammate of jordans ] He also called his defense overrated and a product of a hand-checking era.Jordan has ridiculously large mittens, and Spider pointed out that he would use them on his opponent’s stomach to guide them where he wanted them to go. That would not fly in today’s NBA whatsoever.
Jordan won more championships 6-3
Jordan won his championships in early 90's and mid 90's, not in the 80's he only started to win after bird and magic were getting old. bird swept Jordan both times they met in playoffs.
Bird and magic had to face each other who did jordan face?gary payton?clyde drexler?karl malone?great players but not at the level of magic lakers -the 80's teams were deeper and more talented players.
http://www.operationsports.com/forum...a-history.html
also bird would have won many championships had his Celtics teams played in later years as Jordan did instead he had to face magics lakers dr j and moses sixers isiah pistons etc.
If championships is best player than Russel was best ever.
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/betterrussell.htm
if championships mean everything
derek fisher has more than bird does that mean hes best? you have to say bill russel is best correct better than jordan? steve nash better than kobe and shaq? Tom Heinsohn is better than jordan 8-6.
http://www.nbauniverse.com/champions...ost_titles.htm
all I have to do here is link to this
https://www.2ksports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=319881
His 6 "rings."….people act like he won them all by himself....... Jordan's playoff record without Scottie Pippen is only 1-10 ( that's 1 win and 10 LOSSES! ). Its no doubt, Jordan had great players around him. In his post-Jordan career, Pippen reached the Western Conference finals... Jordan however never even made it into the second round without Pippen... Pippen also got the Bulls to the 2nd round in 1994, when the press predicted that they would be lucky to win 17 games without Michael. Jordan's career playoff record without Pippen (1-10) is hard to considered positive from a player who should be considered the GOAT.
http://forums.interbasket.net/showth...tory-Overrated
"you never just saw me, you saw Scottie pippin, ever championship I won"
hall of fame retirement speech- Micheal Jordan
Larry had to compete against Moses Malone, Julius Erving and Magic Johnson; Jordan had to compete with John Stockton, Karl Malone and Charles Barkley
With all due respect to Stockton, Karl Malone and Barkley, the NBA in the 1980s was a more difficult environment to be a dominant player in than the 1990s. Everyone loves to point to Jordan's six championships as proof of his greatness, but Jordan's*Chicago Bulls*lost in the playoffs in his first five years in the league, including three losses in a row to the*Detroit Pistons.
It wasn't until the great teams of the 1980s, including Malone's Philadelphia 76ers, Magic's*Los Angeles Lakers*and Bird's*Boston Celtics, were aged or completely out of the picture that the Bulls started winning titles.*
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/five-re...184600401.html
“If Jordan's Bulls played in the 80's, they wouldn't have won six championships The 80's were the toughest era in NBA history”
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles...in-nba-history
“Some people promote Jordan and Bill Russell as the greatest because of all the championships they won. While their totals are more impressive than Johnson, there are few that doubt that Jordan’s Bulls would have a tough time getting six rings in six seasons in the more competitive 1980s or that Russell’s Celtics would struggle to win as often today. Getting five championships in the 1980s is just as impressive as the runs of the 1960s Celtics and 1990s Bulls, if not more impressive.”
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8...reater/page/10
Jordan
80's seasons 6 championships 0
90's seasons 7 championships 6
Jordan more mvp's 5-3
total amount of mvps won does not mean better player, otherwise steve nash [2] is better than shaquille o'neal,Hakeem olajuwon and kobe bryant.
Jordan only won one mvp in his first 6 seasons because bird and magic were winning them all still in there prime, it wasn't until bird and magic were in there 30's and bird injured that Jordan started winning his mvp's. Jordan had to fight people like karl malone or charles barkley for MVP great players,but Bird had to fight against Magic, Jordan, kareem, dr j , Moses Malone and all the stars of the 80's.
before retirement in 98
Jordan 6 seasons in the 80's 1 mvp - bird johnson 4
Jordan 7 seasons in the watered down 90's 4 mvps
and the one mvp he won in the 80's could just as easily have gone to bird 87-88, but bird already had 3 they gave to jordan his first.
Average MVP age is 27.2 as of 2013-14 season [ABA 24.2] and is seen as “prime” for a NBA player. Look at some of the other mvp winners while jordan played in the 90's, Karl malone could not win any in the 80's, yet won at the ages of 35 [ oldest mvp winner ever] and 33 post prime in 90's. Olajuwon could not win in the 80's never finishing higher than fourth in votes, yet at the age of 31 in the 94 season, won his only mvp. Look at the other mvp's of the 90's barkley,malone ,robinson and olajuwon combined years in the 80s
barkley 6
malone 5
olajuwon 6
robinson rookie in 89-90 1
total years 18 total mvp's 0
90's until jordans retirement in 98 all mvps not won by jordan.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/mvp.html
Bird had 4 second place finishes for MVP as well as a third and fourth finish for close to 9 total.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../birdla01.html
Jordan was better scorer averaged 30 points a game/ Bird better and more efficient at offense. Better total offense.
Jordan would not have scored 30 a game had he had teammates like parish,mchale,DJ,ainge,maxwell,wedman,walton etc
stats
jordan 30.1
bird 24.3
but notice something shots per game
jordan 22.9
Bird 19.3
so that is 3.6 shots per game more that jordan took.
Larry never took 22.9 a game shots in any single year.
He did average 22 a game in both 84-85 and 87-88 his highest shots per game.
In those years he averaged 28.7 and 29.9 so that comes to 29.3 on 22 shots a game.
So giving bird 22 shots a game and jordan 22.9 we know get
jordan 30.1
Bird 29.3
seeing how they both averaged more points a game than shots, the .9 more shots a game by jordan would be over a point average more for bird giving him at least 30.3.
So we see bird was more efficient at scoring than jordan, better overall at scoring, he could also score from 3pt better extending the defense.
But there is more to consider on offense, assists.
Jordan 5.3
Bird 6.3
So again we see bird with the advantage of a assist a game, assuming for jordan goat fans he can only make assist on 2 point plays [no threes or three point plays] that gives 2 more points a game to bird.
So bird overall at least 32.3 [with assumptions helping jordan fans]
and jordan 30.1
larry is the third best points per shot player ever, jordan is number 10.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/5...istory/page/20
Bird also averaged more offensive rebounds, giving his team more second chances on offense.
Cooper: “He was the toughest in the sense that anytime Larry was on the floor, you had to be aware of his presence because he was going to make something good happen. I played against George Gervin, Andrew Toney, Dr. J., a young Michael Jordan, some of the best players that have ever played this game, but Larry would have to be the best. You knew if Jordan had the ball, once he gave it up, you were okay with that. Larry could go get offensive rebounds. He could make a great pass. He was the ultimate offensive threat. Anytime he was on the offensive side of the floor you had to defend him. To me, that makes him the best I’ve ever played against.”
Q & A: Michael Cooper on "Showtime" Lakers, why Larry Bird was tougher to guard than Michael Jordan July 17, 2014
“Covering Larry — that meant everything to me,” he said. “People said he was overrated … f—, no. If anything, he was underrated. What made him so good was you didn’t just have to worry about his scoring. You had to worry about this guy’s defense, his passing, his ability to save balls from going out of bounds, his ability to set picks and get people open. Larry could beat you in many ways. And he was the hardest player for me to play against, because you had to guard against all those things. Most players are one- or two-dimensional. Larry was ten-dimensional.”
Michael Cooper March 5, 2014 *Showtime:*Magic, Kareem, Riley, and the Los Angeles Lakers Dynasty of the 1980s.*
James worthy [former teammate and played against jordan ] said it was much easier to guard Jordan than bird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI
Small forward/Shooting guard
Bird was guarded by SF,better at defense than SG. harder to score 30 a game from SF than SG. Iverson switched to SG from PG and than upped his scoring and led league most years. I dont think anyone would argue that SG has better defense than SF.
SF are stronger bigger taller and have more length than SG.
if the d on jordan switched a sf to better guard him, than pipen could post up that sg easy on most any occasion.
Moving from the Guards to the Forwards, a large leap in defensive production exists.
http://www.hardwoodparoxysm.com/2013...rward-defense/
A young Jordan scored 63 point vs Bird in prime in playoffs
Tex winters bulls assistant coach b-4 game 3 86 playoffs said the game after jordans 63 point outburst
“As far as jordan we need to try and win the basketball game jordan may be the best 1v1 offensive player this country has ever had. but the important *thing is its still a team game, its still 5v5. on his 63 point game he took alot of shots did not have a great shooting night shot just above 50% disrupted flow and did allot individually, he needs to make sure other players are involved.”
players who shot higher % from field than jordan in his 63 point game-
bulls
Dave Corzine
Charles Oakley
Kyle Macy
Celtics
Danny Ainge*
Jerry Sichting
Jordan shot 53% from field, the game *it also went in double overtime. He got 19 of his points from the free throws [many bad calls as well].
Bird had 36/12/8 that game.
many just pay attention to his great game and points, they dont see his next game game 3 scoring less than 20 and bad shooting as he was swept out of playoffs, as he would be the next year against bird as well while shooting only 41%.
when c's chose to focus in on him as they did in game 3 of the 86 first round after his 63 point game, they limited him to under 20 points on 8/18 shooting and 5 turnovers and many bad passes. The next year playoffs he would shot just 41% over 3 games in another sweep.
In 86 fatigue played a big factor, jordan was fresh coming back late in year while c's had been through long season as bob cousy mentioned early game 3 the c's did not seem to have intensity the second game but came out game 3 with it. Also jordan was unknown as a legit superstar, star yes,not superstar as jordan said of his 63 point game
“Up to that point, there were so many media guys saying, ‘Yeah, he’s good, but he’s not in the same class as Magic Johnson and Larry Bird,’” Jordan said. “And here in that game, I earned Larry Bird’s respect. And to me, that said I was on the right track to becoming a better basketball player. … He gave me the type of confidence that I needed at that level from a player. That to me was the biggest compliment I had at that particular time.”
that was his coming out and I believe maybe his single greatest game of his career. After that he would not repeat that success against lesser Celtics teams. They also dont pay attention to johnson,ainge and sichting having great series vs bulls in large part because jordan kept leaving open the outside shooters to double the post. Johnson and ainge would both have great series again in 87 sweep of bulls. Also one would have to conclude that between the two playoof series between bird and jordan, bird was better overall than jordan and the more efficient scorer.
stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._1987_EC1.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...1.html#BOS-CHI
Bird vs Jordan direct comparisons/ Bird more valuable to team
Bird Jordan comparisons
"The one thing you have to avoid when you talk about Bird is statistics," said the late Celtics legend Red Auerbach. "It's his presence, the total way he commands attention on the court that counts."
Stat comparison
http://www.basketball-reference.com/...jordami01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/.../birdla01.html
The only stat Jordan has advantage is in scoring [and shots] and slight in steals, Bird leads in rebounds assist fg% 3pt% ft%.
division titles bird 10 Jordan 6
average team win a season Bird 57.7 Jordan 51.2 [53.4 with Chicago]
number of years leading team to best record in league Bird 6 Jordan 4
finals appearances Jordan 6 Bird 5 [Jordan played 2 more seasons]
they met twice in playoffs and Bird swept Jordan both years 3-0 86 and 87
Bird leads all time series 25-11
what they meant to thee team winning
Doug Collins later said, "Do you know who's the biggest obstacle to us running? Michael Jordan, that's who. He won't let go of the ball."
Most folks either don't know or have forgotten, but for the early part of his career the narrative was "Jordan is too much of a ball hog to win a championship." Before he did it in 1991
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/89...michael-jordan
“It's almost like the playground isent it ..... *its not winning basketball, the ball has to be shared skip “
two commentators commenting on jordans style during game 1 86 first round vs Celtics
“As far as jordan we need to try and win the basketball game jordan may be the best 1v1 offensive player this country has ever had. but the important thing is its still a team game, its still 5v5. on his 63 point game he took alot of shots did not have a great shooting night shot just above 50% disrupted flow and did allot individually, he needs to make sure other players are involved.”
Tex winters bulls assistant coach b-4 game 3 86 playoffs said the game after jordans 63 point outburst
when they joined there teams as rookies bird took Celtics from 29-53 worse in league to best 61-21 Jordan took the bulls from 27 wins to 38 wins. It would take Jordan 7 years to win as many games 61 as bird did his first year.
bird was considered great because of how he helped his team and made them better, birds first season in the nba he took the Celtics from 29-53 a year before to 61-21 best record in the league. Know he only averaged 21.3 points, 10.4 rebounds and 4.5 assists as a rookie, those are good numbers but not great and he caused that amount of change in the team. Jordan avg 28.2 points 6.5 rebounds 5.9 assist his rookie year better numbers than bird yet the bulls won 27 wins to 38 wins with jordan,nice turn around but not the kind of impact bird has on teammates.
As kevin mcheal said both bird and magic could go 7 for 12 in a game score 20 points and be by far the best player on the floor because they make those around them better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1i1uqu0tE4
Bird If you doubt his ability to improve a random group of players, look at what he did in college - he took a team of no-names to a near perfect season. His first year in the NBA, without McHale and Parish, he turned the Celtics from a 29-win joke to the best record in basketball. When he missed 1989, they fell apart without him.
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/rank.htm
"And I am convinced," Woolf said, "that if he scored 99 points in a game and needed a basket to break Wilt Chamberlain's record and he was at the top of the key with five seconds left and headed for a dunk and he saw someone free under the basket, he would make the pass. That's Larry Bird."
http://www.nba.com/2011/news/feature...ird/index.html
In many other ways, however, Larry Legend was not like Mike at all.*
He didn’t have his own private dressing room for home games separating him from teammates and which made you question the importance he placed on team camaraderie. He didn’t punch a teammate in the face or relentlessly goad them in practice. He also most certainly did not have teammates who felt enough animosity towards him that they wanted to leave town.*
As the team leaders, Jordan ruled the roost with fear and some analysts believe he was a bad teammate, while Bird encouraged healthy synergy and chemistry amongst his teammates.**
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8...reater/page/11
“Through his whole career, he was a player who made all the players around him better, and he had some All-Star players playing with him that were good without him, but he made them even better. I always said he was a leader among leaders. “
Coach Bill Fitch
http://www.nba.com/features/birds_coaches.html
"His approach to the game is almost unparalleled,' said Guokas, who voted for Bird. "He will cut your heart out to win. He has the ability to handle the ball, shoot and rebound. He can pass and make everybody on the floor better.' “
“Bird was one of those rare athletes who made everybody around him better. His uncanny passing, deadly shooting and anticipation defensively transformed losers into winners. “
http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00014096.html
“Larry Bird, the ultimate team-first player”.
http://www.nba.com/playoffs2004/chal...ltics1986.html
when they left in prime as injury [bird] or retirement [jordan].
the Bulls only slipped 2 games: from 57-25 with Jordan in 1993 to 55-27 in 1994. and lost game 7 of semifinals
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
Celts with bird gone negative 15 games and swept in first round.
chart of teams differences in winning when star player leaves
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
Larry bird made a big impact on his team,Jordan did not its painfully clear in this article.
“The answer is obvious, they just don't want to admit it.* Jordan was a great individual player, but he was not as valuable of a TEAM player as those peers of his in the elite category of basketball players.”
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/19941995.htm
Pippen, Grant, and BJ Armstrong all made the all-star team that year, without MJ there to "MAKE THEM BETTER." when he retired.
bird was all about making those around him better and his teammates praise him for making them better
http://www.amazon.com/NBA-Basketball...=operasport-20
Jordan was the opposite
http://airjudden2.tripod.com/jordan/supportingcast.htm
Scottie Pippen – The press love to sing long songs about Jordan made Pippen. However, their songs are missing a few verses. For example. Why did Pippen have his finest seasons without Jordan? In 1994, Pippen averaged 22 ppg, 8.7 rpg, and 5.6 apg. In 1995, Pippen became only the second player in history (Dave Cowens was the first) to lead his team in points, rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals. How could he do this without Jordan to make him better?Pippen also made the All-Defensive team with Chicago, Portland and Houston . He played great defense no matter where he was... In fact, he made the all-defensive team FOUR times WITHOUT having Jordan as a teammate. Jordan never made the all-defensive team without Pippen. Now, who made who better?The Bulls were never recognized as a good defensive team during Jordan's first couple of years with the team. It wasn't until they acquired Grant and Pippen that Jordan even MADE the all-defense team.
bulls def rating went from 106.1 to 102.7 lower is better when jordan left. ppg alowed 98.9 - 94.9.
This selfishness resulted in players standing around and watching Jordan, or Jordan not passing to the open guy with the best shot. Without Jordan, the teams flowed into their offense and found the open man. That is why they consistently shoot better when Jordan doesn't play. Jordan simply does not make his teammates better.
Jordans return in 94-95.
Jordans return in 94-95. The bulls went from 55 wins without jordan to 47 the next year when he joined them late in the year. They actually did worse with jordan in playoffs [ he averaged over 30 both series]
when he returned, than they did the year without him. How can he be the best ever? It was not until they added rodman that they turned into champions, not jordan. They did not start winning until 95-96
because they needed rodman
NBA.com: What went through your mind when you heard the Bulls acquired Dennis Rodman? You had been with the team two seasons prior.
Kerr:*We had lost to Orlando in the playoffs the previous year and a big hole for us was at the power forward spot. We couldn’t get key rebounds. Horace Grant killed us in that series. The whole summer, the team was looking for a rebounder. I think we drafted Dicky Simpkins, but nobody really felt that a rookie would be able to come in and play. So the Rodman trade made a lot of sense just from a position standpoint. Then you threw in the fact that he’s such a personality. We already had a team full of superstars and it was just incredibly intriguing as a player on that team to think what a zoo the whole scene would be.
"Phil said, 'If we're going to win a championship, we have to have someone who can fetch the ball.' That was the expression he used," recalled Bulls chairman Jerry Reinsdorf.
“The Bulls would not have won three more championships without him. “
http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story...-put-bulls-top
First 3 seasons
In jordans first three seasons he could not even turn his team into a .500 ball team. Bird won a championship and led team to best record in the league.
1v1 duel's
they met twice in playoffs and Bird swept Jordan both years 3-0 86 and 87
while bird was in his prime he was 15-1 against Jordan
But it's interesting to look back at the Bird/Jordan duels of the 1986-87 and 1987-88 campaigns. Those were Bird's last two healthy years, and they were also the seasons that Jordan was at his most statistically dominant (37/5/4 in '87 and 35/5/5 in '88).
In 1986-87, Bird averaged 34 PPG (on 56 percent shooting) against the Bulls; Jordan averaged 29 PPG (on 42 percent shooting) against the Celtics. Bird outscored Jordan in four out of six games, and two of those times it wasn't even close: On March 27, 1987 Bird hit for 41 (17-29) compared to Jordan's 22 (9-23); on April 17, 1987 Bird netted 38 (17-29 again) and Jordan had only 17 (5-15).
http://basketbawful.blogspot.com/200...rsus-bird.html
In 1987-88, Bird averaged 34 PPG (on 59 percent shooting) against the Bulls (although he missed two of the games due to injury), while Jordan scorched the Celtics for 39 PPG (on 55 percent shooting), including one 50-point outburst. Bird outscored Jordan twice in the games they played against each other: 33 (14-21) to 26 (10-18) and 44 to 39 (as noted above). They had another great shootout on January 12, 1988: Jordan won the scoring war 42 (19-35) to 38 (18-31), but the Celtics won the game 104-97, despite the fact that they had to start Dirk Minniefield (who??) in place of the injured Dennis Johnson.
The point (no pun intended) of all this should be clear: When healthy, Bird could score with Jordan whenever he was inclined to do so. While many people just matter-of-factly declare Jordan as the GOAT, everyone should be aware that Larry Bird, healthy and in his prime, was as good as Jordan...even better in some areas (such as rebounding and passing).
When Jordan tried to guard bird, he would post him up time and again and abuse him.
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=...A00ABC95207E00
Best clutch player ever jordan vs bird
How can you say that jordon is the biggest choker ever?
According to NBA.com's jordon tribute, jordon has slopped in 25 shots at the buzzer. This is proof that if you chuck it enough, it will sometimes find it's way in! Remember the Nike commercial that jordon had last year? You know -- "I fail over and over and over". According to jordon, he has bricked 28 shots when his teammates "counted on him to win the game" .* Shortly after, he fired an airball vs. New Jersey at the buzzer for #29.* Against Indiana in Game 4 of the 1998 Eastern Conference finals, jordon chucked up #30, and then in game #5 vs. Utah, he airballed #31.* This means more often than not, jordon chokes when the game is on the line. The stats speak! jordon is no Bird;* jordon is no Magic; and Jerry West's official title of "Mr. Clutch" is in no danger of being taken by jordon, a.k.a. "Mr. Choke."
"If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save a game I'd choose Michael Jordan; If I had to choose a player to take a shot to save my life...I'd take Larry Bird." - Pat Riley
bird was picked as the best clutch player ever jordan was number 2
http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles...istory/page/11
Larry Bird was arguably the best clutch shooter in the NBA. He simply excelled in the last seconds, when the game was decided and he’s got a long list of buzzer beaters from memorable games and most of them come from playoff time.Nobody was arguably more feared than Larry Legend when it mattered most. He was a cold blooded player who was a sharp shooter, had a terrific arsenal of moves and was capable to find the bottom of the net in variety of ways and from just about anywhere.He was indeed, the game’s greatest clutch shooter of all time. I’ll also point this quote which describes how good Larry truly was in the clutch.*“Of all the people I play against, the only one I truly fear is Larry Bird. [ because of his clutch play]”–Magic Johnson.
http://footbasket.com/articles/best-...e-nba-history/
The case for Larry Bird
Bird videos free online
Larry Bird - ESPN SportsCentury
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcB43C0dawQ
Larry Bird A Basketball Legend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MueNwQohOO4
Magic & Bird: A Courtship Of Rivals
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jScp01dHsMU
1985-86 Boston Celtics: Sweet Sixteen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlhTJ2L4W0w
-Bird possessed arguably the finest skill set and highest basketball IQ of all time
-Averaged 10 rebounds a game for a carer, the best SF ever rebounder ever.
-He was arguably the best non guard passer in the NBA History. Some have said hes the best passer in nba all time regardless of position.
“Although he’s credited for revolutionizing the ‘point’ forward position and being an excellent passer, he was an unselfish player who had arguably a better court vision than anyone who played the game. He could deliver with a variety of accurate and fancy passes. He was at his best when he split the defense to make the easy dime. He also made his team mates a lot better with his passing. That’s the reason why they never aquried a playmaker, because they*already had one*in Bird.”
-Larry Bird has a nice career resume filled with lots of great accomplishments that speak for themselves. Here’s the list
3× NBA Champion (1981, 1984, 1986)
3× NBA Most Valuable Player (1984–1986)
12× NBA All-Star (1980–1988, 1990–1992)
2× NBA Finals MVP (1984, 1986)
9× All-NBA First Team (1980–1988)
All-NBA Second Team (1990)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1982–1984)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1980)
NBA All-Rookie First Team (1980)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1982)
3× Three-point Shootout champion (1986–1988)
NBA’s 50th Anniversary All-Time Team
#33 retired by Boston Celtics
NBA Coach of the Year (1998)
John R. Wooden Award (1979)
Naismith College Player of the Year (1979)
AP National Player of the Year (1979)
Oscar Robertson Trophy (1979)
Adolph Rupp Trophy (1979)
NABC Player of the Year (1979)
Larry Bird’s peak seasons were arguably the best. The numbers prove that.
FG% 52.2 – 49.6 – 52.5 – 52.7
3P% 42.7 – 42.3 – 40.0 – 41.4
FT% 88.2 – 89.6 – 91.0 – 91.6
PPG 28.7 – 25.8 – 28.1 – 29.9
RPG 10.5 – 9.8 – 9.2 – 9.2
APG 6.6 – 6.8 – 7.6 – 6.1
SPG 1.6 – 2.0 – 1.8 – 1.6
http://footbasket.com/articles/best-...e-nba-history/
"Bird is the only player in NBA history to have career averages of at least 20 PPG, 10 RPG and 5 APG. His versatility has been matched by few in NBA history, currently ranking fifth in triple-doubles with 59. He was the first player to make the 50-40-90 club and he did it twice (making at least 50 percent of his field goals, 40 percent of his three-point attempts and 90 percent of his free throws).*Last and perhaps most impressive was how Bird would often tell his opponents how he was going to beat them (even the exact position where he would make a game-winning shot) and then go on to follow through exactly like he planned."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8...reater/page/11
case for bird as goat
http://footbasket.com/articles/best-...e-nba-history/
bird was every bit as good as jordan according to jordan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tliT...eature=related
"All the media and guys saying hes good but not as good as magic and larry bird....I am not saying i disagree with them, but that put more wood on the fire to become a better basketball player"
Micheal Jordan retirement ceremony
"When I played, Larry Bird was the only one I feared. A lot of black guys always ask me, 'Did Larry Bird really play that good?' I said Larry Bird is so good it's frightening."
-- Magic Johnson about Larry Bird on ESPN's SportsCentury show (Friday, June 25, 7:30 p.m. and 10:30 p.m. ET).
"Larry was the smartest player I ever played against," Johnson said. "I always enjoyed competing against him because he brought out the best in me."
magic Johnson
"I played against George Gervin, Andrew Toney, Dr. J., a young Michael Jordan, some of the best players that have ever played this game, but Larry would have to be the best. You knew if Jordan had the ball, once he gave it up, you were okay with that. Larry could go get offensive rebounds. He could make a great pass. He was the ultimate offensive threat. Anytime he was on the offensive side of the floor you had to defend him. To me, that makes him the best I’ve ever played against."
5 time laker champion*eight All-Defensive teams*Michael Cooper *July 17, 2014 Q & A: Michael Cooper on "Showtime" Lakers, why Larry Bird was tougher to guard than Michael Jordan
Isiah Thomas said if you put magic himself and Jordan in a room together, bird would be the one to walk out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI
James worthy said it was much easier to guard Jordan than bird
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI
Magic Johnson called bird the greatest basketball player ever at his retirement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZFnDzP8-hI
“Jordan will never be as good at running a team as Larry Bird.”
Andrew Eubank, February 13, 2012 Why Michael Jordan Will Never Be As Good As Larry Bird
"Larry Joe Bird is the greatest basketball player who ever lived.” Argument: Jordan or Bird? DREW LAMAR JUNE 14, 2012http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1221549-dream-team-documentary-rekindles-argument-jordan-or-bird
“Larry Bird is the best basketball player ever. There was nothing he couldn't do.”
nov 28 2010 Nicholas gross-http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/514471-kobe-bryant-larry-bird-michael-jordan-and-the-10-best-closers-in-nba-history#/articles/514471-kobe-bryant-larry-bird-michael-jordan-and-the-10-best-closers-in-nba-history/page/11
“player who has a terrific case in the GOAT discussions and his name is Larry Bird.”
August 5, 2011
http://footbasket.com/articles/best-...e-nba-history/
when asked his top 5
It’s not very difficult for me,” Bryant said. “I’d go Magic, Jordan, Bird, Russell and Jabbar.” “I will say as the years go on people really forget how great Larry Bird was,” Bryant said. “He was ridiculous. And I grew up in LA — just like everyone else here — hating his guts. Dude — the guy was just money.”
une 20, 2013 Kobe byrant
"one of the greatest players to ever lace up shows, in the half court he was evil, you couldn't beat him in the half court"
Dominique wilkins Jan 22, 2014
*“Bird, widely acclaimed as the NBA's best “
http://www.si.com/vault 1987
Coach George Karl of the Cleveland Cavaliers told ray Didinger of the Knight News Service: “Bird is so far ahead of everyone else, he’s in a different century. I’ve never seen anyone better. “Given the choice between Kareem (Jabbar) and Bird, I’d take Bird. He rebounds like a center, passes like a guard, shoots lights out from 20 feet. Besides all that, he’s a killer. Hell do anything to win.”
Before Bird I used to vacillate," says Bob Cousy, now a Celtics broadcaster. "The question didn't seem relevant. But Bird came along with all the skills, all the things a basketball player has to do. I think he's the greatest."
Milwaukee Bucks coach Don Nelson, "He's the best player ever to play the game."
"I've always considered Oscar Robertson to be the best player in the game," says John Wooden. "Now I'm not so sure that Larry Bird isn't."
Even Laker general manager Jerry West, who refuses to compare players from different eras, says of Bird, "He is as nearly perfect as you can get in almost every phase of basketball."
He is the best player ever, “Milwaukee Coach Don Nelson says. “The Celtics play on a different level. Bird? Well, he’s on his own level.”
June 9, 1986
With his incineration of the Houston Rockets in the sixth and final game of the NBA finals, Larry Bird added another large page to the resume that he’s amassing as the best all- around player in basketball history.
The 80's Larry Bird GOAT Conversation
June 4, 1985
Larry Bird, the Boston Celtics’ 6’9” forward is being called ‘the greatest basketball player” by a lot of qualified observers…
Red Auerbach, who’s built all the Celtics’ championship teams, describes Bird as “the most intense player to wear the Celtics uniform.”
March 3, 1986
"As Nearly Perfect As You Can Get"
In a glorious seventh season, Larry Bird of the Boston Celtics is demonstrating that he may be the NBA's best player of all time. Owing to the extraordinary importance of the giant pivotman in the game, it is probably impossible to declare that, in his seventh season, the 6' 9", 220-pound Bird, a forward, is greater than Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain or Kareem Abdul-Jabbar—that is, the greatest player of all time. Or maybe it isn't.
April 1, 1986
The NBA’s best all around player—the skillful passer, the determined rebounder and the tenacious defender—now is a spectacular shooter with both hands and from all over the court…
In his seventh NBA season, Bird is in the top 10 in five of the league’s major categories. He leads the NBA in foul shooting percentage (.897), is fourth in scoring (26.4 per game average), third in three- point percentage (.433), ninth in steals (2.07 average) and seventh in rebound average (10.0).
May 25, 1986
Bird is the best all- around player ever. How many guys have a superior talent and a tremendous work ethic? He’s one millionaire athlete who is underpaid.
June 9, 1986
With his incineration of the Houston Rockets in the sixth and final game of the NBA finals, Larry Bird added another large page to the resume that he’s amassing as the best all- around player in basketball history.
Nov. 13, 1986
"Question on Bird: Is he the best ever?"
There have been other great shooters, other great rebounders, other great passes, but none has ever put all those skills together than Bird has.
Dec. 27, 1986
Maybe Bird is the best ever. And maybe Jordan is the most spectacular player today. But it’s time to give Magic his due.
Feb. 3, 1988
Earlier, Celtics president Red Auerbach, the winningest NBA coach in history with more than 1,000 victories before he retired to the front office, called Bird “the greatest player ever to play the game.”
Auerbach noted that he had coached Russell and many other basketball Hall of Famers before the arrival of Bird in 1979, and said: “For the first time in my life I’m going to say this. Larry Bird is the greatest ever to play the game.”
CNN.comHYPERLINK "http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/flashbacks/1988flash.html"". Sportsillustrated.cnn.com. 1979-04-06.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/bas...1988flash.html.
After game 2 of the nba finals houston vs boston Bird's performance left Olajuwon awestruck. "He's the greatest player I've ever seen," the Houston center said after the game.
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19851986.html
Teammate Dennis johnson in 86 said
"He is undoubtedly, in my mind at least, the best basketball player playing the game today," Dennis Johnson said afterward.
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19851986.html
“I saw him take on five guys by himself,” said Houston’s Jim Petersen. “At times he doesn’t seem to need teammates.”
http://aol.sportingnews.com/125/stor...-while-you-can
Bob Cousy, one of the league's all-time great guards, played with Russell, yet he voted for Bird as best player. "He shows you something different all night,' Cousy said. "He simply doesn't have any weaknesses."
"Larry's the greatest total player I've ever seen in the game of basketball," said Celtics coach K.C. Jones, who played with Russell and against Chamberlain.
Associated Press
8 February 1986
Detroit Piston Coach Chuck Daly, on Larry Bird: "He's the best passer in the league. He finds the open man better than anybody else. He is the greatest passer of all time." Note: On a recent telecast, as Bird was preparing to throw the ball in, CBS analyst Doug Collins said, "Larry Bird is the greatest inbounds passer I have ever seen."
Celtics' Bird plays in a world of his own
Robert Sansevere 29 May 1986 Star-Tribune
"Yeah, Larry's just like a chess player," Houston Rockets General Manager Ray Patterson says. "I don't know of a better way to describe him. He's like a chess player who plays 40 boards. He knows where all the moves are. He's a thing of beauty to watch. He puts on a clinic. Sometimes, it's almost like he's out there playing with nine guys from the YMCA. "He creates things on the court even he doesn't know exist," Patterson says. "He's like a great artist or composer, and he's got the heart of a lion."
"No one can do the things Larry can do. I think he's the best ever. He practices like it's the seventh game of the championship series. When Larry gets hot, a little voice starts directing him and he's on radar," says Fitch, who coached Bird in his first four years with the Celtics.
Celtics' Bird: The master of the court
JOHN McCLAIN Staff 1 June 1986 Houston Chronicle
"There is no question he is the greatest player today," said Hubie Brown, the New York Knicks' coach. "He is already at a level very few people will reach, no matter what their profession. He has stature of almost awe, not only from coaches and fans, but from his peers."
Larry Bird: Is he the best ever? SAM GOLDAPER New York Times 12 November 1986
“Any living legend can take over a game in the last few minutes. Only Bird can take it over in the first few minutes.”
Journalist Peter Vescey
“Larry Bird just throws the ball in the air and God moves the basket underneath it.”
--Cleveland Cavaliers public address announcer Howie Chizek after Bird set a club record with 60 points in one game and scored 48 in another during the 1984-85 season
“Bird best forward ever *Larry Bird could be argued as the Greatest Of All Time too “
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/4...istory/page/11
Dr. Jack Ramsay and Hubie Brown.* In a series entitled "Legends*from the*Legends," one of the questions posed to both was: "Who was the best opposing player you ever had to coach against?"
Dr. Jack doesn't hesitate to answer with "The Birdman"*
http://redsarmy.com/2010/09/20/dr-ja...ached-against/
“The unbelievable player, like Bird, Magic, Jordan or Kareem...... they are so much better than we give them credit for, because their games are confined by the limits of the rules, the referees, by the length of the games, by how much structure there is. When you see Larry Bird play in practice, when you live with him every day during the course of a year... he is just so great, so special.”
Bill walton nba at 50
05-23-2015, 03:16 PM
