This video should end the LeBron vs MJ Debate!

[simbayless]

Before y'all say LeBron face the Boston & Detroit good defense
In his era
But the problem is those teams weren't in their prime

Meanwhile Jordan had to face two of the toughest physical defenses in their prime the Knicks and Pistons along with the 90's physically,hand check,no 3 second Lane violation!

Imagine LeBron trying to play bully ball in the lane
He would have to add something in his bag
Because in this video the 90's Knicks swarm,help,switch, double,and took the lane from MJ so he would have to adapt and still scored 30 on triple teams

Man I miss the 90's Defense growing up was so fun to watch

Adam Silver bruh

https://youtu.be/5K-qGWkiKvQ?si=CqIiEqz61UgcHV65

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[danj13]

Who cares lol. The only people that give a crap about this stuff is talking heads on ESPN and kids on Twitter. Just watch players and appreciate them instead of comparing them against each other.

[simbayless]

LeBron fan detected
I'm joking lol
But ok buddy this thread is not for you it's for people that's tired of the media and his lemmings sticking LeBron is the G.O.A.T. down our throats
When they act like they don't have YouTube

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[danj13]

Quote: Originally Posted by simbayless

LeBron fan detected I'm joking lol But ok buddy this thread is not for you it's for people that's tired of the media and his lemmings sticking LeBron is the G.O.A.T. down our throats When they act like they don't have YouTube Sent from my moto g stylus 5G using Tapatalk

Actually not a lebron fan I’m a Laker fan. I think conversations of who the goat is, is so tiring. Why does it matter? Michael was amazing, Kareem was amazing, Wilt was amazing, Lebron is amazing. It’s okay to just like everyone lol. Why down another player to try to make a point in an argument that you can’t win?

[zello144]

Quote: Originally Posted by simbayless

Before y'all say LeBron face the Boston & Detroit good defense In his era But the problem is those teams weren't in their prime

Those teams were in their primes though.

[ojandpizza]

Quote: Originally Posted by simbayless

it's for people that's tired of the media and his lemmings sticking LeBron is the G.O.A.T. down our throats When they act like they don't have YouTube

Anybody using a random YouTube highlight/lowlight of player to showcase something (especially against 1 opponent) that's 30 years old to justify someone being better/worse than someone else is just as bad/annoying as media people who won't shut up about the GOAT debate.

As for the actual video itself... That swarming 3-4 guys style of defense is the defense LeBron has faced pretty much is whole career because there is no illegal defensive rules anymore. Often times it's set that way already when he's still 30ft from the rim, no "quick rotations because of spacing" but literally already set that way because zone schemes are no longer illegal. Pistons and Spurs were doing that to him at 21 and 22 years old. Using this video to prove the point you're making honestly almost argues the reverse. These videos also don't show what happens when those rotations are late, which is MJ getting the ball one dribble from the rim for a free dunk/foul. Video also showcases plenty of instances of where if MJ had LeBron's combo of height/vision he would have been punishing some of those swarms with making the better/timely pass too.

It's almost pointless to argue because MJ played his competition/rules and LeBron played his, neither needed to work on things to show/prove they would be better/worse 20+ years after they retired or before their time.. Spacing has changed a lot of that now to a degree in LeBron's older years but on many of his teams years ago for him to get the kind of space that Jordan often caught the ball with coming off a screen his teams had to be flanked with shooters and force teams to pull out from that "illegal defense".. Meaning they usually compromised rebounding, interior defense, etc.. Obviously he had more freedom in other ways. More stingy hand-check rules, far less hard fouls at the rim, a bit more room to get downhill when the spacing was working for him, etc.. And there is more give and take back the other way too. No "Verticality rule" where MJ was drawing fouls with his back/shoulder jumping into guys getting free free-throws, no walled up zone schemes, often open getting to his spot off screens because most teams didn't have the versatility to be switching like that back then. They have both had advantages/disadvantages the other hasn't.

Not that I think LeBron has went and passed MJ, or that we need to constantly have these GOAT debates, but videos like this 30 years ago, for players who didn't need to develop the same traits because of the way the game has changed, especially showcasing 1 opponent that accounts for like 4 games a year does essentially nothing to illustrate who is/isn't the GOAT for guys who've played 1000+ career games...

As for the general point of the video you literally told us how annoying the media constantly shoving the GOAT debate down our throats is just to come here and do the exact same thing lol. Picking one vs the other doesn't make the conversation as more or less annoying or tiresome lol. I never understand that part of these debates. Each side always thinks they are justified and the other is delusional and annoying even though they are doing the same thing.

And as far as just elite defense.. LeBron has technically faced 16 of the top 25 best defensive teams in NBA history in terms of rDRTG. Jordan has faced 4.

2004 Spurs - 1st
2008 Boston - 3rd
1993 Knicks - 4th
1994 Knicks - 5th
2020 Bucks - 6th
2004 Pistons - 7th
2016 Spurs - 8th
2014 Pacers - 9th
2005 Spurs 10th
2011 Bulls - 13th
2011 Celtics - 14th
2007 Bulls - 15th
2006 Spurs - 16th
2007 Spurs - 17th
2009 Magic - 18th
2012 Celtics - 20h
1989 Utah - 21st
2012 Bulls - 22nd
2014 Bulls - 24th
1997 Heat - 25th

Jordan's Bulls knocked off two of those teams in the playoffs (93 Knicks, 97 Heat) and LeBron four of them (2014 Pacers, 2011 Bulls, 2011 Celtics, 2012 Celtics)..

In terms of elite playoff teams neither has beaten many of the top teams in terms of playoff rDRTG.. But keep in mind playoff sample size is so small that playing against 1 really good offense, or one matchup against a superstar or mismatch will greatly skew those numbers. Good example would be 2008 Boston dropping from 3rd best defense ever to out of the top 50 likely because half their playoff games were against LeBron and Kobe. Or some of those Spurs teams dropping after playing high scoring fast-paced teams like Phoenix and Dallas. Some of the Knicks teams dropping after being torched by MJ or playoff Reggie, etc.

Jordan knocked off 2 of the top 25 playoff defenses, 96 Knicks, and 97 Heat, LeBron beat 1 being the 2018 Pacers. Weird thing about that stat is Knicks played more than half their games against the Bulls and Pacers all their games against the Cavs.. So a big part of the reason they rank that high is because of how they played against Jordan and LeBron.. Just a messy stat all-around.

In typing all that I do want to point out that I genuinely feel that using data/videos like this to make points for a single player (example Jordan/LeBron vs insert this entire team) is basically pointless. IDK why these topics always turn matches into some giant game of one-on-one or one player vs this team like teammates, match-ups, coaching, adjustments, injuries, hot/cold streaks, depth, etc plays no role in winning a playoff series. Bringing that back to your video, it was never "Jordan vs the Knicks" to begin with.. I mean the same group swapped MJ for Pete Myers and still pushed them to 7 games with similar Ortg.. Part of the reason Bron knocked off two top-25 defenses in a single playoff run was because his team was the Heatles, etc.. There is so much more to winning, especially in the playoffs, than "this player won" just like there is so much more in how effective a single player is vs a team defense because they aren't dribbling around 1 vs 5.

Bringing that context and circumstance into the discussion I would argue the best defenses either of them faced relative to what they had on their side as well was the first couple of years the Bulls lost to Detroit and when the Cavs ran into the Spurs in the 2007 finals. Not that other teams didn't have great defenses but Jordan's Bulls were equipped to beat the 90's Knicks or Heat just like Bron's Heat squads were equipped to beat those late 2000's Celtics, Bulls, Pacers.

Bulls pre-Phil, before Scottie and Horace developed, before BJ and Bill arrived, they weren't equipped to beat those Pistons teams. That's why MJ dropped like 9 ppg and 6 points in efficiency in that series compared to his regular season self and 18ppg from the series before against Cleveland.. Similar for Bron for different reasons. Snow injured mid-season so no other PG, Hughes out the series against the Spurs with plantar fasciitis. Spurs just walled up LeBron (similar to Toronto vs Giannis) and swarmed him as needed (similar to your Knicks vid) because none of their next top 3 scorers (Gooden, Gibson, Pavlovic) were threats to them. On top of having Bowen on ball, and Duncan at the rim possibly the two best in the league at the SF spot and help spot. Relative to their teams and what they had to work with those two matchups were substantially tougher than any they faced in my eyes.

[Jeffx]

To me, it's pointless to compare the two...they play different positions and their overall games are different. I always regarded LeBron as a hybrid of Magic & Oscar...Jordan, a scoring assassin/closer and a lock-down defender. Great players with different roles. If there's any player I compare to Jordan, it was Kobe (R.I.P.).


Just my .02

[ggsimmonds]

To me there is no debate, but that video doesn't move the arrow. Several years ago there was what I consider a definitive comparison video that I think ends the matter.

What I'm more interested is PER -- is it pronounced like "pur" or do you spell it out like P-E-R?

Thats the debate to get worked up over