Greg Oden Out For The Year...Again

[ex carrabba fan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mo_Magic

lol, so your argument is baseless opinion, but the guys who throw around stats that actually do mean something are wrong? YOU'RE the case of "OS striking again" here. This year, he was as premier a defender as they come. In fact, if you do some math to make the comparisons even, he held his offensive counterparts to 96.6 points per 100 possessions. Good for third in the league among ALL players. What more does the man have to do to be recognized as great in some regard?

Right .

Just go through the thread and read my posts.

I don't know if you ever watch him or just go to websites and gather statistics.. but I prefer to watch players when making these assessments.

[Mo_Magic]

Quote: Originally Posted by ex carrabba fan

Right . Just go through the thread and read my posts. I don't know if you ever watch him or just go to websites and gather statistics.. but I prefer to watch players when making these assessments.

or go through and read the entire thread.

Generally, when people don't have anything to say they try and make the other person sound ridiculous, but that's alright.

Assume, assume, assume.

[ex carrabba fan]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mo_Magic

or go through and read the entire thread. Generally, when people don't have anything to say they try and make the other person sound ridiculous, but that's alright. Assume, assume, assume.

Huh? Maybe you shouldn't take things so personal.

You call my argument baseless, I guess you didn't read my previous posts where I list numerous factors as to why I came to my conclusions.

[atomant94]

Damn!

Oden Got SBD!

(Sam Bowie Disease)

[PrettyT11]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mo_Magic

Nobody is debating whether or not he's a role player. In fact, all the buzz I'd heard from around the time of his high school career was that he'd be in the mold of a Bill Russell... and how can you look at his short career and the numbers he produces in that short of a time and say he couldn't and would never be? Bill Russell was not a good offensive player. He was one of the best defensive players of all time though. Does that make him, Ben Wallace, etc, role players or stars then? I think the game is too weighted towards the offensive end when it comes to fans thinking about 'who's a star'. Center is the one true position that can swing an entire game on the defensive side of the ball, which is just as important as the offensive end. The only thing stopping Oden from being an all out dominating force on the defensive end is his own inexperience and these injuries. To say that he's not a premier offensive rebounder in the league this year is absurd. The guy is 13th in the league playing under 24 minutes a game. The ONLY players who rebound on the offensive glass at a rate that is similar are Ben Wallace and Chuck Hayes(who is two slots below Oden and boasting .1 more minutes a game). And this is with being tied for second in all major defensive rebounding categories. In fact, at the rate Oden offensive rebounds, he is FAR AND AWAY the best in the league. 5.1 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes... the next closest is Chris Bosh at 4.6. The rate at which he grabs offensive boards is nearly TWO times that of any player not named Chris Bosh. Obviously, he doesn't play that long, but when you look at how long he was playing and the make up of that team, it's obvious that he was their most vital piece on the defensive end and he was producing on that side of the ball night in and night out. He's their second most valuable player, EASILY. He's also averaging .8 more blocks than any other player despite only playing 24 minutes! To say that he is not a premier defensive force when he is on the court is just... well, not educated. In my opinion, if he could just play without the injuries, he would eradicate the hype. I don't remember anybody saying this guy is the second coming of Wilt or that he'd even be 20, 10. Just that he'd be a defensive monster in the mold of Russell. These numbers DON'T lie. It's easy to score a lot of points if you jack up a ton of shots, it's not easy to somehow fake that you are a good rebounder on the slowest moving team in the league or be the blocked shots leader by a wide margin in 24 minutes a game... ON THE SLOWEST MOVING TEAM.

If you are going to use stats as your argument then use them right. Oden is not far and away the best offensive rebounder in the league. I guess you forgot Brendan Haywood who is actually leading the league with 4.5 a game. Per 40 minutes he is at 5.4 which is higher than Oden's 5.1. Just for kicks Jeff Foster is averaging 6 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes clearly more than Oden's 5. So that in itself shows he isn't far and away the best like you claim.

On top of that I have no idea at all how you figure his offensive rebounding is at least twice that of everybody not named Chris Bosh when there are over 27 players averaging more than 2.5 offensive rebounds a game while playing less than 40 minutes. So it is pretty obvious if you average those out to 40 minutes it will be more than half of what Oden is doing.

To take it step further to show you how he is not this supreme rebounding monster you are claiming him to be he isn't even the highest on his own team. Per 40 minutes Joel Przybilla is outrebounding Oden 14.7 to 14.2. So much for being far and away the best in the league huh?? My final example is Eric Dampier who is rebounding at the same rate as Oden. So are you know wanting to call Eric Dampier an all world rebounding force to??

PS to save you some face I didn't even go into the defensive rebounding cause all you had to do was look at top 8 names on the list to see players defensive rebounding at a better rate than him. Next time if you are going to use stats let's use them properly.

[Mo_Magic]

Quote: Originally Posted by PrettyT11

If you are going to use stats as your argument then use them right. Oden is not far and away the best offensive rebounder in the league. I guess you forgot Brendan Haywood who is actually leading the league with 4.5 a game. Per 40 minutes he is at 5.4 which is higher than Oden's 5.1. Just for kicks Jeff Foster is averaging 6 offensive rebounds per 40 minutes clearly more than Oden's 5. So that in itself shows he isn't far and away the best like you claim. On top of that I have no idea at all how you figure his offensive rebounding is at least twice that of everybody not named Chris Bosh when there are over 27 players averaging more than 2.5 offensive rebounds a game while playing less than 40 minutes. So it is pretty obvious if you average those out to 40 minutes it will be more than half of what Oden is doing. To take it step further to show you how he is not this supreme rebounding monster you are claiming him to be he isn't even the highest on his own team. Per 40 minutes Joel Przybilla is outrebounding Oden 17.8 to 17.0. So much for being far and away the best in the league huh?? My final example is Eric Dampier who is rebounding at the same rate as Oden. So are you know wanting to call Eric Dampier an all world rebounding force to?? PS to save you some face I didn't even go into the defensive rebounding cause all you had to do was look at top 8 names on the list to see players defensive rebounding at a better rate than him. Next time if you are going to use stats let's use them properly.

Jeff Foster isn't playing over 20 minutes, but he is indeed averaging more per 40. Not only that, but he's never really done anything indicative that he could keep up that rate before. Sorry I didn't include him in the discussion if it's upsetting you.

What you're not doing is looking at the RATE at which he grabs defensive boards and the team he's on.

As far as offensive rebounding RATE, he's tied for 2nd with Ben Wallace behind Dejaun Blair and Jeff Foster, who really play so few minutes in comparison to him and other players that it's impossible to gauge what their actual value is, especially when you consider the pace that the team plays at.

When I was sorting the stats, I made a huge mistake and left it to only include players that have played 20+ games though, so no, I guess it isn't far and away.

Even so, there's still a more than viable case that he is the best offensive rebounder in the league, along with a very good defensive rebounder if you'd like me to go more in depth.

Also, I said far and away the best OFFENSIVE rebounder, which a more than viable case can be made for when you consider the fact that he offensive boards at a rate HIGHER than all but two players who don't play a significant amount of minutes and plays on one of the slowest teams in the NBA by pace.

[PrettyT11]

Quote: Originally Posted by Mo_Magic

Jeff Foster isn't playing over 20 minutes, but he is indeed averaging more per 40. Not only that, but he's never really done anything indicative that he could keep up that rate before. Sorry I didn't include him in the discussion if it's upsetting you.

I don't know what would make you think that. Foster's career offensive rebounds per 40 mins is 5.3 which is higher than what Oden is doing now. Foster has always been a great offensive rebounder. He has averaged at least 3 offensive rebounds a game the past six years dispite never playing more than 26 minutes a game. He is also the active leader in offensive rebounding percentage and is 6th all time.

Quote:

Even so, there's still a more than viable case that he is the best offensive rebounder in the league, along with a very good defensive rebounder if you'd like me to go more in depth. Also, I said far and away the best OFFENSIVE rebounder, which a more than viable case can be made for when you consider the fact that he offensive boards at a rate HIGHER than all but two players who don't play a significant amount of minutes and plays on one of the slowest teams in the NBA by pace.

I don't see how you can make a strong case for him being the best when Haywood actually leads the league in offensive rebounding and has the higher number per 40 mins. Also it's not like he is Haywood is playing for the Suns or Warriors or something. The Wiz are right at the league average for pace. He is also not the only player who has a higher number. He is one of the best but he is not the best. And he without a doubt can't be far and away the best cause he doesn't lead the league in any category.

You can talk about pace all you want but don't you believe Oden couldn't play at a faster pace and be as good do you?? He also couldn't play the major minutes that the other guys play. Simply because he would have fouled out or been gassed. Oden has had problems keeping up with the faster teams in the league and has had stamina issues. He wouldn't rebound at that rate playing for a team like the Suns cause he wouldn't be able to keep up.

Oden has only played 30 or more minutes twice this year and only 9 times last year. He simply fouls too much and can't keep up for that long a period of time. When he is tired is when he makes more of those stupid fouls that take him out of the game. He has had at least 5 fouls in over half his games this season and averages over 6 fouls a game per 36 mins.

So again he wouldn't be able to put up those numbers he averages over 36 or 40 minutes cause he simply wouldn't be on the court that long either from fouling out or simply being too gassed. So I will always give the edge to the players who actually put up those numbers playing those major minutes than somebody who doesn't play those kind of minutes and just average those kind of numbers if you average thier numbers out to that amount of time.

[3rdAnswer]

The only reason he gets so many offensive rebounds is because they come from him missing around the rim LOL.

Seriously, I wish this guy would stay healthy. The Blazers will never contend for a championship if Oden never gets healthy.