The real reason the NFL wants competing NFL titles & why NFL 2K will go sim in 2022.

[mwjr]

Quote: Originally Posted by Kanobi

They achieved that in All Pro Football 2k8 with the abilities and the tier (gold, silver and bronze) system.

I would’ve gladly bought another iteration of APF2K. I was really hoping they’d make another one, adding a fully fictional franchise mode.

[The EVHL]

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

I played Madden 06, and it was crap. Yet Madden fans keep holding it and 12 up as examples of when Madden was great. It always feels like all of this is born way more out of EA hate than a rational memory of 2K5 and 2K8, games I loved. But 2K is the game I started playing when a real sim football game, Front Page Sports FBPro, released FBPro 99, a game so bad it had to be recalled, and ended up killing the franchise. 2K is what I settled for. It wasn’t sim. It designed for kids, had terrible sim results, and ridiculously bad DB play. But it was fun H2H and I loved how 2K5 allowed you to download profiles of the teams you were going to play based on the plays your opponent used in past games, which made prepping for live games fun. I am pretty excited to play whatever 2K releases. But some of these takes are cringe worthy. They come from the same types of folks that are responsible for there now just being one game per sport among basketball, hockey, and baseball. The “winning” games were considered great, until their competitors were canceled. Suddenly, it became clear that sports gamers can only consider a game great if they have another to compare it to. The hate for NHL popped up quick, because EA. But now, the hate for 2K basketball and The Show is building. Without another game to rag on, they turn on the only game left, picking at its flaws, blowing small things out of proportion. Sports gamers, by and large, seem incapable of just not playing a game they don’t like. They have to actually mock people that play and enjoy the game. It’s pathetic, to be honest.

Ummm no, EA hockey has always been considered to be an "arcade" offering and the 2k game had a good following of "hardcore" or "sim" players from 2k3-death. I won't talk about the other sports as I'm no expert in those, but I'll address the hockey part here because your post seems completely fueled by your own assumptions rather than your actual understanding of the history of hockey gaming and the two completely different demographics both games had following them. If your take on why the NHL series receives more and more hate is this far off, I feel like I should add this piece as I can only assume you aren't being very honest about some of these other sports titles and why people only hate EA "because EA."

Casual hockey fans loved EA's offering due to the skill stick and EASHL. They never once stated they loved the game because it resembled hockey flawlessly, or that the AI played a great game of hockey, or that teams played true to their identities. They loved an online game with friends that gave them ability to pull off fun dekes and win as a team. These people are the ones who continue to throw away money at HUT because the streamer-bros they follow rip packs 3 times a week in their face and shove the MTX's down their throats. They care about dekes and scoring 6-7 goals a game, even if it's the same move every time. They couldn't breakdown a breakout, a zone entry, a PP, or anything about the sport. These are the fans the tune-in for playoff hockey with the bros, yet know nothing about the sport. They don't care about sliders or anything the "sim" community would.

The hardcore community has always been biased towards 2k due to their in-depth slider offerings giving user's the ability to create their own meta (prior to NHL 16, the sliders available were severely lacking) run more advanced strategies, and 2k has always just been able to get the "feel" and "little things" of hockey right compared to EA. Sure, it wasn't smooth and definitely was the objectively worse video game, but that didn't stop the hardcore community form buying it, nor was it even considered to be less of a "sim" hockey game compared to EA. All you have to do it play 2k8-10 and watch how realistic the goalies play. They actually catch their edges, they get fooled be a deke once or twice but no more than that. They give up first shot goals that actually make sense and feel very "random" in a sense where getting to a certain spot isn't an almost guaranteed goal like the EA series has always been. As a real-life goalie, I can't begin to explain how amazingly cool that "randomness" was to experience, nor can I overstate just how incredible the work was on those goalies. 2k8 had the best goalies any hockey game has ever seen, and probably ever will see, because you can tell there was a deep understanding of the position and the sport that went into them.

Why you're now seeing the increase in "EA hate" when it comes to the NHL series is two-fold. First, the hardcore community is forced to either not play virtual hockey, or play EA's virtual hockey and see just how little they've progressed from an AI perspective. If one actually understands hockey and didn't care about online gaming, they would've never purchased an EA game till 2k died. EA had mundane, unimaginative offline experience due to their limited sliders and horrible AI. To start, their line strategies are the same 3 strategies they've had since like NHL 99. The worst part is, the AI still struggles to run these strategies in a realistic way, yet they haven't been changed in a literal 20 years. Their AI is not dynamic, meaning they won't screen the goalie if the puck goes high..heck, they won't even come dig the puck out of a pin if they're on the user's team. I'll just stop here cause I could write 50,000+ words on why offline NHL is nothing short of frustrating from a "sim" perspective.

The second part is the causal fans who enjoyed 09-15 (well, really only 09-12, then maybe 14) due to the skill stick and EASHL being a fun experience, are now seeing just how poor the online experience has been in this generation compared to last. The skill stick was nerfed, touch passing hasn't been the same since this new gen, more and more over-reaching animations have taken control away from the user, and more and more competitive 6s games have been decided by bad bounces than ever seen on the previous gen. Not to mention the new "World of CHEL" drop-in lobby that's totally killed the drop-in community as well as the "lobby" feature never returning from last-gen, and you're seeing a demographic once filled with EA lovers now turning on the game as well as this generation has been completely dedicated to tweaking the game for a select few streamers, pushing HUT down our throats, and a generally less fun online experience as a whole.

So no, the hate you see from the NHL community isn't limited to disgruntled hardcore fans. There's many casual fans who have also seen their online experiences never live up to their last-gen counterparts who have also started to attack EA every chance they get. This sudden attack on EA hockey that has just "happened because EA" as you say, couldn't be farther from the truth. I was a competitive 6s player from 09-18, and I can tell you that this generation of EASHL has been nothing short of a disaster. To start, NHL 15 omitted EASHL and they tried to cover this fact up till launch, no easy way for outside leagues to host games, captain delay plaguing 1.5 years of EASHL, cookie-cutter builds that all hover around 78 overall which has resulted in only 2-3 of the 12 classes ever being played, inconsistent servers that sometimes lead to goals not counting, terrible meta changes for the worse, and now the sudden addition of clown gear in online NHL has left a considerable amount to be desired in the online world.

The game just isn't as fun as it used to be online, and the game has only marginally improved it's offline experience from an AI perspective this entire generation (if it's even improved, it might be worse than NHL Legacy tbh). That's all they have to show in six whole years (including skipping porting 14 to "make sure 15 was solid") of development? Oh, and let's also not fail to mention the legends in 19 advertising scandal where they also tried to cover up the limitations of legends to launch. The NHL series has had two MASSIVE blunders where they tried deceiving their offline and online customers (once each respectively), and have failed to make the game more fun, immersive, or realistic in this entire generation. That's why there's a rapid increase of "EA hate" when it comes to the NHL series. People aren't just hating on the series to hate lol, that's just simply untrue.

[JayhawkerStL]

Right The more fun game saw its sales slide, and 2K canceled it. Now we are stuck with game that sold better and has the features sports gaming fans actually like.

I mean, you are making my point for me. Thank you.

[The EVHL]

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

Right The more fun game saw its sales slide, and 2K canceled it. Now we are stuck with game that sold better and has the features sports gaming fans actually like. I mean, you are making my point for me. Thank you.

Well no. I actually was pointing out that people aren't hating the game because of EA, they're hating the game because the consumers have been purposely deceived twice this generation, and there's massive groups within the NHL community that haven't seen their game experience improve in an entire generation of hockey games (that's why I bolded that part...that's usually how forums work. You bold parts you're wanting to reply to). You also seem to blame the hardcore community for not keeping 2k afloat, but I'd argue most offliners who actually understand the sport bought 2k. It's not our fault that there's not many of us, but it surely wasn't us who didn't buy their games.

Stating that people hate NHL "because EA" implies that the game is near perfect and that the complaints are largely nitpicking. I just explained to you that there's some serious fundamental flaws with the game and that even casual fans (you know, the ones you claim EA caters to, and should cater to) are starting to turn sour due to how terrible the online experience has been this entire generation. Again, I mentioned a ton of examples of how EA has COMPLETELY dropped the ball this entire generation when it comes to online play, so that only adds to the amount of people who will willingly give EA a hard time about their NHL games.

So my point that I apparently need to literally write out is, people don't hate NHL games because EA makes them lol. People hate them because the experience continues to decline, the developers seem tone-deaf, and their company literally deceived two massive groups of users this generation which has left a very bad taste in the mouths of many current/would-be NHL gamers.

[JayhawkerStL]

No, you were clear. As long as 2K made a game you didn’t have to care one way or another what EA does. You played the game you like.

But 2K stopped making the game you like because it was no longer profitable enough to continue with.

Now you hate on EA because they don’t make a game like 2K, whose game didn’t sell well enough to exist. The logical option is to not play the game, because you know you don’t like it.

But because you are a hockey fan, you are entitled to a sports game designed to your preference, even if it is not profitable to the people actually investing in the game.

You were exactly right that EA’s game sold because they provided the features their customers wanted. Why change? Because 2K’s game failed?

The problem is, there is no such thing as a perfect game. There are 3 kinds of games. Good, Bad, and mediocre. Logical people play games that are good and ignore the other two.

People with an agenda play the other two and complain non-stop about their inability to play a game they like. I mean, how could someone be a hockey fan without playing a hockey game? Since most hockey fans, in fact, do not play hockey games, you would think it is easy. I’ve gone years without playing baseball and football games because the ones I liked stopped getting made.

I like NHL 20 because Chel and Threes are a ton of fun, and play now is pretty great. But I’m “just a casual” so why should my opinion count, right. I should be embarrassed, right?

Should I admit I am not worthy and fight for your right to a boring, grindy game that won’t sell enough to be profitable? Or do you think that now the 2K threw in the towel that EA can now make money by forcing the fans that carried the series this far to accept that what they have been playing is no longer good enough.

Or do you buy into that myth of the ultimate customizable that every sports game should be for everybody?

Me, if they made their game like 2K hockey, I would do the same thing I did with The Show and NBA 2K, move on and play something more fun.

If 2K football is is more fun than Madden, I’ll switch in a second. I rarely play more than one sports game at a time. I definitely preferred 2K football and baseball to the more popular games for those sports. I didn’t take to Madden for a decade after 2K got screwed. I kinda liked Madden 10, but pretty much hated every other release. But Madden 15 was the first game that was more fun than 2K5 or 2K8 for me.

How many years in a row does a company have to make a game that you think is wrong on so many levels before you realize they aren’t making them for you? Or is this your new normal. New season, new year to complain about the game that was never meant for you.

And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you.

There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs.

So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

[capnlarge]

I'm pretty sure NHL's sales have been steadily declining for a while.

I think a bunch of people bought 15 and dropped off the series because that game was a turd

[Swingking77]

Quote: Originally Posted by illwill10

But I feel the timing of this is what brings up questions. If the non-simulation license has been up for grabs for years, then why wait now right before Madden's exclusive deal is almost up?

I really do believe that the NFL has suffered a great deal over the past 15 years as a result of the (largely false) CTE moral panic. People forget that the whole thing came out at the before last bargaining agreement, where retired players were lobbying for continuation of health coverage after playing. The NFL refused, and so all of a sudden you have people coming out of the woodwork and claiming that football = CTE.

Fast-forward, and the NFL's numbers have been in constant decline in terms of viewers and product value. Markets are collapsing where previously they were strong, etc. Couple all of this with the continued issues the league has had with PR from drugs and domestics, along with the nearly annual New England scandals, and its no wonder people think the league is a joke... Because it is. Despite what a lot of people believe because of marketing, Skygate 1 & 2 let the cat out of the bag; "Professional Football is Sports Entertainment"... They even lobbied several times in court to prove this very fact (once against the Jets fan post Spygate, and then again against American Needle).

So the reality is that the NFL isn't worth as much as it was over a decade ago. At this point, the NFL is just happy that "someone" is still making NFL games... They don't care who it is. As such, they've no doubt been soliciting tenders and putting feelers out, but in reality, nobody is buying. Why would they? Invest millions to sell 9 million games? I don't think so.


Right now, the NFL is locked into the EA contract. But that doesn't include "non-sim football", which is just a loophole the NFL's lawyers are exploiting to test the market and see what they can get out of people. That being said, I'm sure having signed such a long term deal with EA was a venture which has caused a least some buyers remorse from the NFL. And I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to discover that the focus on MUT was a big part of it. I also wouldn't be surprised to learn that the NFL probably didn't profit much, if anything, from the MUT transactions as it wasn't even a "thing" when the initial deals were made out (though NFLPA probably did).

Quote: Originally Posted by illwill10

Or why not just wait for the exclusive license to open up for bidding?

Because luck favours the prepared. Do you really want to leave things up to the last minute? Also, do you really want another studio making a crap game because they weren't able to develop at least certain aspects of it prior to all of this? A 7 v 7 game still allows for the development of passing, running, blocking, catching, tackling, etc., without. Now if it fails, it's easily deflected and dismissed by all parties by claiming "it wasn't a SIM game". The risk in here is on 2K though, as EA did a great job of implementing ALL of their innovations the last time (hit/juke stick being the major one, proper hot routes, along with presentation style... They still didn't manage the various aspects of the defensive game though). But time will tell how it all plays out... But if "we" want variation from EA, we'd better sell out hard on that other game and send a message.

Quote: Originally Posted by illwill10

The best case is that Madden really steps it up now. Hopefully Madden sees it as competition and rises to occasion. Since start of 7th generation, Madden has had tendency to re-invent the wheel and strip everything down. Madden 06 when they did a full overhaul to next gen and took years to recover. Then in Madden 13 when they stripped down game modes for Connected Franchise. Madden is in need of a positive overhaul in gameplay and game modes.

It's because as a studio, they've always been uninspired. EA "stepping it up" means waiting to see what others have done well, then taking it for themselves, often with mixed results (PES features now found in FIFA, NBA 2K features which had found their way into NBA Live games, etc.). The only problem is that with the NFL, there are no others and EA has been left to it's own devices. The closest that EA has gotten to a perfect football game was NCAA '14... But that franchise died too, and unfortunately, nearly none of the positives from it made it into future Madden games. Not to start an aside debate, but I've always felt like if they could meld everything from Head Coach, NCAA dynasty mode, and Madden Franchise, they just might make a great and complete football game. But not having any competition means they never had to... So we never did. Instead, we got MUT, which I refuse to play because 1) I can't afford it, 2) I already bought the game, 3) it has always been juvenile to me (like trading cards) and isn't why I play sports games (a sim experience on equal footing as everyone else).

[Swingking77]

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

No, you were clear. As long as 2K made a game you didn’t have to care one way or another what EA does. You played the game you like. But 2K stopped making the game you like because it was no longer profitable enough to continue with.

That last part is false, it was profitable to make, but exclusivity made it futile. Just to be clear as those are two different statements.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

Now you hate on Madden [...] the logical option is to not play the game, because you know you don’t like it.

A perfect statement and potentially the truest statement that applies in this very scenario... I never understood paying $100 for a game I knew I was going to hate. It never made sense to me, and based on the lack of innovation, it was obvious it was all in vein. 1000% agree with this logic.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

You were exactly right that EA’s game sold because they provided the features their customers wanted. Why change? Because 2K’s game failed?

But back into fallacy we go... 2K didn't fail because it was bad. It failed because of exclusivity. And as far as changing is concerned, EA changed (stole a metric **** ton of stuff from 2K) as a result; hit stick, presentation style, announcing style, and they even tried (and failed) to implement a lot of the defensive adjustments, as well as franchise mode, as well as stats tracking of 2K. They changed a ton of stuff and anyone who compares Madden '05, to Madden '06 on the same generation can see it and knows it.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

The problem is, there is no such thing as a perfect game. There are 3 kinds of games. Good, Bad, and mediocre. Logical people play games that are good and ignore the other two. People with an agenda play the other two and complain non-stop about their inability to play a game they like. I mean, how could someone be a hockey fan without playing a hockey game? Since most hockey fans, in fact, do not play hockey games, you would think it is easy. I’ve gone years without playing baseball and football games because the ones I liked stopped getting made.

100% spot on again here... I'm the same way.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

Should I admit I am not worthy and fight for your right to a boring, grindy game that won’t sell enough to be profitable? Or do you think that now the 2K threw in the towel that EA can now make money by forcing the fans that carried the series this far to accept that what they have been playing is no longer good enough.

Well again, this gets kind of gray because it's the only football game out there... Not the only NFL game, but the ONLY football game. If football is your thing, you're either left with Madden or nothing. So it becomes a bit of a muddy situation. It still doesn't excuse people who buy to bitch.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

Or do you buy into that myth of the ultimate customizable that every sports game should be for everybody?

... In reality though, all things being the same, functional sliders that actually impact how the game plays can achieve a lot in this regard. But no matter what, the framework will remain the same. Play experience can somewhat be changed (ironically as is the case in the NHL series which offers SIM settings and Casual settings), but the bear bones of the game won't. If that's the issue people have (bear bones framework) then it makes zero sense for them to pay for it.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

How many years in a row does a company have to make a game that you think is wrong on so many levels before you realize they aren’t making them for you? Or is this your new normal. New season, new year to complain about the game that was never meant for you. And this ritual, the sad part is, it never ends. Sim guys turn even very good games into a toxic communities, because no matter what the game gets right, there is always room for improvement. And what starts as a request eventually turns into entitlement as bitterness, because the Devs ignore you.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

There is zero upside to catering to the experts that always think they understand the sport better than the Devs.

This one is 50/50... The visual guys drive me f'ing nuts. We all know the type, those who have an issue with OCD who fetishize certain aspects of the game like "Mahomes has exactly 4 red cleats, 3 yellow, and 1 white... why isn't that in there" in like five subsequent posts, despite the fact that the game makes him throw the ball with his face while his arms are flailing around all loosy goosy... As though proper cleat colour would make the game playable or "improve the experience that much".

That being said, there is a certain give and take which can occur I believe. And FIFA is a really good example of that on most accounts. The devs generally have a really good relationship with the fans and do try to implement a lot of the things that fans ask for in terms of playability... But there is a give and take. Some ****** who spams cleat references, or the slightest colour variance (another of my peeves "It's supposed to be salmon pink, you have just plain pink") won't get as much ear time as someone who brings forward a really good suggestion... Though this has been changing a bit as of late and that franchise is also becoming stale. Oddly, it started at about the same time that FUT started to come out... Not sure if there is a connection there.

But then again, the FIFA devs are mainly working with Europeans, where as Madden's are dealing with Americans, I suspect largely from the South, who based on their posts are pretty stupid and/or entitled... And who react pretty harshly when their stupidity is insulted. So that might also be the difference.

Quote: Originally Posted by JayhawkerStL

So, TL;DR: Spending years complaining about a game doesn’t show commitment. It’s more like needing to be committed.

So true... A true story. We had a family member who had developed both dementia and Alzheimers. One day they were left alone for a few minutes and decided they were thirsty, so they went into the fridge and found a bottle of salad dressing. Took a swig, gagged and put it back, only come back and do it again... and again... and again. Only once the care giver came back did they see that the whole bottle had been drank. Our relative then got sick and puked it all back up because of the acidity and the oil.

And this, to your point, is what SIM Madden players do every... single... year.