Chris' Blog: Playing the blame game with NBA Elite 11

[Stickz24]

Quote: Originally Posted by Logic Doctor

Don't mean to say I told you so but...... Here's what I said 3 months ago when Pasta posted the article about the Live name change to Elite. "Something EA definitely had to do. Live's reputation became too much to overcome regardless of what was released. NBA 2k owns the simulation crown which is both a gift and a curse. Why you ask? Because the closer you get to a simulation the further you move from a fun game. Ultimately, a large majority of gamers want to be able to pick up a controller and dominate without having to focus intensely or spend hundreds of hours refining their stick skills......and that is a completely reasonable expectation. There is in fact a market for a more arcade like, storyline-driven NBA gaming experience. Hence my next point.EA should have put NBA JAM at the fore front of their basketball gaming strategy this year releasing the classic across all platforms. Once released on PS3 and XBOX 360, I guarantee NBA JAM outsells Live/Elite 11', by a LARGE margin. If EA corporate had any sense they would have clearly seen the benefit in that this move would have allowed them an extra year for the development of what is ultimately going to be a new NBA title and a realistic opportunity to really go back to the drawing board and do something cool and different with NBA Live/Elite. Instead, I fear NBA Elite is destined to simply be a retread of NBA Live sprinkled with a bit of NBA Street, held together with scotch tape and toothpicks. I mean, what else could be reasonably expected from EA in 1 year? From any development team really, especially when your competition is the unstoppable juggernaut that is 2k and an in house rebirth of basketball gamings God Father, NBA Jam. I hope i'm wrong and EA manages to pull an awesome alternative to NBA 2k out of their *** because like I said earlier, 2k is moving in a very tricky direction with regard to the definition of simulation and if their not careful may begin alienating segments of their fan base as well as newcomers to the series. Only time will tell I guess." creepy isn't it

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Man, love it when I see other people who think like me. There was a kid who complained 2k was getting boring. Perfect example, a lot of people are not really fans of basketball and just don't know the game. Maybe they are too young, .. whatever. What does a 18 yr old kid .. really appreciate about the technicalities of an intricate offense? Not much.
The millions of cheesers we like to complain about online ... all those repeated quits .. ironically - they are the one's who keep the 2k ship afloat.

The can pick up a game .. beast in the paint, shoot a few threes .. get a win - feel good and keep it pushing. The don't care about records .. or being "nice" at the game. So when they hit one of us super sims .. they just quit and go back to doing what they do vs. the masses.

The more sim 2k gets .. the less they'll be able to do that. Unless 2k identifies and specifically targets a different market - sales will inevitably begin to decline. That's probably why you have not had and probably will never have a true sim game. Because devs are constantly seeking that mix of fun and "sim".

What I do think though, is that 2k rely on their brand power to spread the butter so to speak. I hope they are listening .. cause it will come to this real soon.

Use these next 2 (maybe 3) years as advertisement for 2ks capabilities with role playing games, playground games/NBA jam/street type games and sims. In 2 years .. split up the games. Make one really deep myplayer/role playing game and another really deep sim game. Reduce the prices of both games .. just slightly. Say $35 - $45 each. What you have now is a single game that's going for about $70 ish dollars but that reaches the two primary segments of your market that would otherwise have cannibalized each other. If you do it right, what you'll have is .. the sim players who are likely more mature .. will be able to dip into the market for the role playing games as well (and some vice-versa). Depending on how things are going .. maybe you put out a cheap street type title ... see how that goes.
Now you have 3 products on the market .. sell them all under one marketing umbrella though ...

Without careful estimates .. you're looking at an
average purchase of about $70-$80..on what would have been a unit before. The DLC market is about to open up .. so material costs will likely not be an issue. Whatever they do, they'd probably want to focus on beefing their capacities so that development, production and marketing is streamlined for cost efficiency.

But without the rant .. 2k has an amazing opportunity here if they can see 2-3 years down the line and begin to focus on changes and segments within their market.

They'll have the advantage of the assymetries they've developed over the years, and brand loyalty. This would be the template I'd follow for tapping out the basketball market. .. Maybe in 5,6,7 years .. they would have perfected their products and just rely on incremental improvements (cash cow). The market would point them .. as it is now .. is the next steps direction once they begin this path.

Long story short .. I feel you brah. I'm sure the minds at 2k have begun to consider these realities though. If not, here it is .. the more we discuss it, 2k, the clearer the details and your exact path will likely become .
1 y'all.

[jmood88]

Quote: Originally Posted by Playmakers

is controlls all that matter in a basketball game? tell me something beyond controlls that made you think it was playing basketball? Do you enjoy the the things you see out of the AI? Are you happy with the way the game moves once you leave the practice gym? Do you even care that the AI still attempts the weirdest looking shots even within 5 feet from the basket? Is this game just all about what you can do with the control of your players or does anything else even matter to you guys

Yeah I'm really not understanding the people who keep saying that the only reason anyone would have a negative opinion of the game is because of the controls. I had no problem picking up the controls(all it really is is moving the right stick around for dribbling and passing with the trigger) but everything surrounding the game is really bad.

[inkcil]

Chris,

I agree with you 100%! Great blog post.

I really wish EA had put out a decent game this year...but this offering is horrific.

[inkcil]

Quote: Originally Posted by Blak_Baki_Hanma

Even if EA doesn't make another hoops title, it will have no impact on the quality of NBA 2k... THEY HAVE NEVER BEEN COMPETITORS. Live is rated E... 2K is rated M The demographics don't even understand one another... hence the vitriol. 2K isn't hyper-realistic because of ANY pressure from EA sports EA isn't actively trying to recreate Double Dribble because of ANY pressue from 2K. Their respective targets are COMPLETELY different. Those with no affinity for authenticity and get pleasure from casually breaking ankles and fantasy dunking have a game to play. Those who, above all, want to recreate the NBA experience also have a game to play. 2K isn't taking customers away from NBA Live... NBA Jams is (because it's the same game as NBA Elite... just 2 on 2)... and that's fine with EA because the money stays home. rEAnimator said it himself, "the goal is 70% ARCADE / 30% SIM"... and the 30% is just the NBA license so gamers can have familiarity with the teams/rosters. So if we would all just LISTEN (including me), we would understand that EA has never had any intention of competing in the SIM market... they have their niche.

I agree with you 100%...that is why I played both NBA games in 2010. I love what Live 10 was doing, even though it hadn't reached its full potential. EA baseketball USED to be good at doing what they do best - creating the 70/30 game. Now their game will go down as one of the worst sports gaming blunders of this console generation.

[YoungEz1]

Yo on the real I rather whip out a Sega Genesis and play Bulls vs Blazers then ever play this again................
If a game sucks it suck no matter what company makes it

[yopis]

They could not win the against 2k so they tried to devalue everything 2k has done better with this whole process. This was a shameless attempt to buy more time to put out the same old (we are in year 1 of a process excuse). They lost plain and simple, im not jumping up and down for 2k or sad for EA , I don't own stock in either company. I hope in a few years they can get something going but the corporate culture of EA will have to change for sure. Smoke in mirrors only last so long. Maybe this will be a triple play to MVP story but maybe not time will tell.

At this point of a consoles life I don't want to see things started over anymore. System shock games gave us Bioshock. Kotor gave us Mass Effect, all those live games gave us a complete do over and more waiting. This is a failure in every sense of the word. Basketball games didn't need to go this route, they (EA sports) were just not good enough to compete at what was working.

Since the course was set I hope they can make something of this down the road. Who is to say they wont just start over again? This is a desperation move for sure. All these post talking about feeling sorry for the dev team are crazy. That's what they want you to think so they can buy more time for the shortcomings of the game.

The dev team is responsible as the other parts of EA for the games failure over the last few years. Im in no way attacking anyone personally from the team but on a professional level all areas (from the suits on down)are part of the blame for this franchises fall.

Hope they can turn it around but it's not 2005 and im not buying year one of any sports franchise again until the next cycle of consoles. If value outweighs price then a person will buy the product, it's not at that point for me yet.

[Dachozen1]

I just don't know the direction they wanted to go with this, sim, arcade... they're trying to tone down the free throw line dunking, but they're just focused on ball handling and not team basketball...so which direction are they going??..and it just feels unrewarding to learn the ball contol to play a bad basketball game... Besides Live 10... NBA Street was EA's best basketball game this decade, so maybe they should bring that type of game back if they're going arcade.

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Quote: Originally Posted by thesniper321

lol the last part was directed to the people who absolutely want their bb game to LOOK good. indeed elite is not for them but if you want a very deep experience the game is for you. I mean it took me 10 hours to understand how I could use fisher momentum against him if I used the right move at the right moment. I'm still discovering things . I can throw running hook shots on a consistent basis now but my post move game is far to be completed. The AI didn't get a steal during 1 on 1 since a long time and ,now i know which distance is mandatory to shoot for all my players so I rarely get blocked . I still haven't mastered how to use the transition between the post game and the face up, but the AI put some nasty moves on me with gasol that make me try harder, I haven't really pratice the post move defense, I still have a hard time to contest with 2 hands but it's very efficient against kobe . The slide on defense demands skills (with time i will make ron look like a baby on D ) so I just switch a lot right now, I can't throw the layup I want yet in traffic (right or left hand) cuz I'm slow to react to the help d and the situation is never the same ( most the time i'm looking at fisher cuz I just badly broke his ankles rare moments there). I doesn't recognize everytime the opportunities when I can jump in a defender after he bite a pump fake to get a foul i'm too slow but I did it with kg 4 or 5 times.I haven't worked on the triple threat or the gathers (I can't spin) or the freestyle pass or the oops yet, lol. there are so many things to learn in this game . it's so fresh, you have to think about all the subtleties of bb. Done is the time when i knew all the canned animations so I knew what was going to happen . I feel all the work the team put in this game so I understand why this reviewer is excited YEAH now i get what you meant when you said you have to feel it reanimator, now i get it

I don't see how you could find such depth in a game with such base AI. I played one game on superstar where it was tied with 22 seconds left and I'm bringing the ball up with Rondo. Fisher strips him. Its still tied. The Lakers inbound the ball and Fisher jacks a three right away with like 20 secs on the clock and sinks it.
Everything about that was pure BS. First a defender is not going to reach on Rondo in that position. You not going to risk putting him the line to win the game. Second the protect the dribble animation shouldnt be a constanst baby sitter and third its freaking Rondo!!!
Then the Lakers show no clock management at allllll. The game is tied with 20 secs left you dont burn 3 seconds and jack a three. Kobe wouldnt take it if he was wide open but Fisher took it contested. Thats just one example the game has Dreamcast AI. I dont see how you can find depth in the RTP. I wouldnt even know it was there if they didnt sell it. I would think the fouls were just turned off (which is another problem).
Backbreaker had depth from its physics. Thats a real example of a game with physics. If thats what you want play Backbreaker. It has flaws but those physics are real and they had a real affect on the gameplay.