Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[Baebae32]

Posted this another thread but thought i should open a separate one.

Quote: Originally Posted by mrclutch

Unpopular opinion- being open and taking the “right” good shot should count for at least 90%. Having a bad shot selection should never be rewarded just because you can flick a stick a certain way. That’s not basketball.

While i understand your point it dismisses the art and skill of making difficult shots that basketball’s greats make look routine. People make contested shots in the NBA. Of course NBA offenses are designed to look for contested shots but the best players can make them. The challenge from a video game perspective is in what scope should this part of the real life sport be incorporated into our game? I think allowing guys to convert on contested looks more reliably once they are in rhythm (takeover system) is a good start.

Simplistic example:
A sharpshooter converts on three open 3 point attempts in the span of 5 or 6 possessions. It is safe to say he would be in rhythm. And lets say he is now able to green release on contested looks now. The timing window for these greens should be very very small but possible. And if a guy is able to convert, he keeps his rhythm going and has the possibility to green the next contested look.

But now lets say he gets too overconfident, forces and misses a couple of bad shots (read contested) in a row (again keeping in mind that the ability to make these shots should be due to an extremely small timing window). This guy would now be out of rhythm.

Now this is where the strategy (game design) comes in. In my opinion you should NOT be able to know via an on screen visual cue whether you are in rhythm (takeover) or not in rhythm. And this is how you replicate the heat check. Lets say you make a few open shots in a short time frame. Players would then face the dilemma of:
Ive made a couple of shots via getting open now do j want to force a shot because i think im in rhythm (have a higher chance of converting a contested look) or do i want to continue to play good team ball and just try and get another open look. Again keeping in mind you wouldnt know via an onscreen visual cue whether or not you were in rhythm and therefore even had the chance to make that 35 foot step back jumper with two guys on you (hyperbole) until you actually took the shot.

Situation 2:
Ive made 2 and then missed 2 of these contested, forced jumpers. Do i want to force another one to see if im still in rhythm or do i want to now focus again on generating an open shot via team offense. And this is how you create guys shooting their team out of the game. You dont let them know that their cold with an onscreen cue you let them or their teammates figure it out because they continue to force and miss shots.

From a defensive perspective this would force you to:
1. Clamp down on great shooters and shot makers to not allow them to get into a rhythm
2. If a guy does get into rhythm and is now making contested shots, do you send a double? Or do you play the percentages and wait for the guy to revert back to the mean.

In summation:
1. Knocking in a high percentage of open looks should allow guys to get into a shooting rhythm that would allow them to make contested shots

2. The timing window for knocking in contested shot should be very small and would generate your skill gap

3. There should NOT be any visual cues to let people know that they are in rhythm (takeover) or when they have fallen out of rhythm

4. The timeframe for being in rhythm (takeover) could vary within each game based on: (A) actual game time (2 minutes), (B) number of offensive possessions, or (C) your efficiency on the contested shots ( you have to make 2 of 3 to keep it going and then it resets, make 2 in a row and then it resets.)

5. On point 4, this would create a game within the game. Does my team want to allot 5 possessions to one guy taking contested shots to see if he can keep it going ( if based on B). We think we have a guy that has it going (takeover) do we want him to get his next shot up as quickly as possible to utilize his takeover time frame (if based on A). Or, this guy has made 2 of his 3 contested shots this game do you go to him again to see if he still has it going (if based on C).
-This is where you create the crazy steph curry 17 points in 3 minutes vs the kobe knocking in contested shots all game hotstreaks.
6. On points 4 & 5 Again all this is all under the hood stuff and would NOT be on screen.

In my opinion, this is how you merge the sim (allowing a good shooter to get open and get it going does not bode well for your team) and the video game (your ability to knock in the contested shots you see your favorite player make on the tv is based on your stick skills and shot timing.). All under the game mechanics of you wont be able to make these shots reliably all game but we will not tell you when you can and cannot (on screen cues)

Just some thoughts I had. Open to critiques and criticism. Would like to hear you alls opinions. Typed this on my phone so apologies for the formatting.

[Young Coaches]

Baebae32 made some significant points about rhythm and the player in particular taking the contested shot including the situation. Allen Iverson made many of his shots creating space. Given his height, the engine still penalized his shots as contested. I love that Curry is used here as an example as he is a small 6’3 combo guard, known to shoot contested 3s over Anthony David, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson. . . You name it.

While It’s been announced that the shot gather step back will trigger ankle breaker badges, it wouldn’t make sense if the shot percentages on those step backs or spin/crossover jumpshot hasn’t been tweaked. Again, only once in a generation shooters. If you want to call them the banana boat crew: the Iversons, the Currys, Kobes, Kevin Durant of the worlds. We’re talking on a consistent night after night, all up in your face, how do you want it basis. I would dare to say that if you don’t double team these guys, they’ll drop 30 on you WITHOUT any pick & rolls (just by dancing on you).


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[T.B]

There seems to be an issue with people forgetting about ratings. IDK how open you are and your release accuracy If you have garbage shooting stats you should still miss.

[Baebae32]

Yes my point. The best players get those 30, 40 and 50 point games making a number of highly contested shots. There needs to be some sort of game mechanic that allows users to do the same with a combination of stick skills and sim based flundation. Maybe the new takeover season will accomplish this. We shall see.

[Baebae32]

Quote: Originally Posted by T.B

There seems to be an issue with people forgetting about ratings. IDK how open you are and your release accuracy If you have garbage shooting stats you should still miss.

Well yes. Your ratings should govern your percentage of the shots you make. What i am proposing is a system that allows guys with high ratings 88+ To take and make contested shots. Essentially allowing them to carry their team if they A) take smart open shots to get in rhythm and B) have good enough timing (stick skills) to capitalize on being in rhythm


The above propsed system would not even apply to guys without ELITE shooting ratings.

[Young Coaches]

Quote: Originally Posted by Baebae32

Well yes. Your ratings should govern your percentage of the shots you make. What i am proposing is a system that allows guys with high ratings 88+ To take and make contested shots. Essentially allowing them to carry their team if they A) take smart open shots to get in rhythm and B) have good enough timing (stick skills) to capitalize on being in rhythm The above propsed system would not even apply to guys without ELITE shooting ratings.

I’ll take it a step further... 1) not every player rated 88+ can carry a team and be that offensive arsenal. 2) As there are many defensive minded players rated 88+, who simply don’t have that capability. What I am proposing is for “one generation type scorers (specifically and true scorers)” Curry, MJ, Kobe, Harden, Durant, TMac, Ai. . . Might even wanna thro in Prime Melo in there... guys who on record, have averaged thirty (30) through seasons.. The contested shot system should exempt them from being penalized as the rest of the guys in the league are when taking contested shots from 16-17ft out.

Not everyone is known have the capability to drop 30 thru a season. Specially when they primarily threaten you to make it rain from the perimeter, in your face. Add on the capability to carry a team? which means most (if any) opposition stood in their way were legitimately bound to get their call answered? That is not a luxury 2k should just toss to Ben Simmons, Penny Hardaway.. guys that are stars yes and maybe even Hall of famers, but aren’t sufficient to do what’s required to put the ball in the basket, relentlessly, no matter what John Doe is thrown defensively (unless they’re double teamed).


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[olajuwon34]

Quote: Originally Posted by Young Coaches

Baebae32 made some significant points about rhythm and the player in particular taking the contested shot including the situation. Allen Iverson made many of his shots creating space. Given his height, the engine still penalized his shots as contested. I love that Curry is used here as an example as he is a small 6’3 combo guard, known to shoot contested 3s over Anthony David, Kevin Love, Tristan Thompson. . . You name it. While It’s been announced that the shot gather step back will trigger ankle breaker badges, it wouldn’t make sense if the shot percentages on those step backs or spin/crossover jumpshot hasn’t been tweaked. Again, only once in a generation shooters. If you want to call them the banana boat crew: the Iversons, the Currys, Kobes, Kevin Durant of the worlds. We’re talking on a consistent night after night, all up in your face, how do you want it basis. I would dare to say that if you don’t double team these guys, they’ll drop 30 on you WITHOUT any pick & rolls (just by dancing on you). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The only reason they dance on you, is because the nba doesnt allow people to play defense on guys like this, if guys could play defense on those guys like they played defense in the 80's prior, and even the 90's, they wouldnt be as successful of players.

[Baebae32]

Quote: Originally Posted by Young Coaches

I’ll take it a step further... 1) not every player rated 88+ can carry a team and be that offensive arsenal. 2) As there are many defensive minded players rated 88+, who simply don’t have that capability. What I am proposing is for “one generation type scorers (specifically and true scorers)” Curry, MJ, Kobe, Harden, Durant, TMac, Ai. . . Might even wanna thro in Prime Melo in there... guys who on record, have averaged thirty (30) through seasons.. The contested shot system should exempt them from being penalized as the rest of the guys in the league are when taking contested shots from 16-17ft out. Not everyone is known have the capability to drop 30 thru a season. Specially when they primarily threaten you to make it rain from the perimeter, in your face. Add on the capability to carry a team? which means most (if any) opposition stood in their way were legitimately bound to get their call answered? That is not a luxury 2k should just toss to Ben Simmons, Penny Hardaway.. guys that are stars yes and maybe even Hall of famers, but aren’t sufficient to do what’s required to put the ball in the basket, relentlessly, no matter what John Doe is thrown defensively (unless they’re double teamed). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

When i say 88. I am talking about their shooting ratings only. Not the OVR. 88 is the fisrt number that came to mind. Maybe it could 90+ rating and a combination of having the HOF deadeye badge. The system itself is important the qualifier to access it is irrelevant IMO