Breaking Down Sliders... How They Really Work

[matthewrshaul]

My main issue is just the lack of pancake #'s by my O-line. I don't want to mess with them too much because I'm ok with guys missing blocks sometimes, and I'm ok with the pressure I'm on my QB. I've learned to get rid of the ball earlier. And I love it that people just can't roll out and wait for a WR to come open on a deep post. I just need a slider setting to increase my # of pancakes. Even by just a liitle. Any suggestions?

[DrewBledsoe]

Great Post Bill!

You've probably already realised something I'm going to say. Re The CPU Pass Block, I reckon the devs decided the only way the cpu QB could even slightly perform sensibly, was to give a huge. massive inbuilt Pass Block Setting. Notice how even with 0 cpu Pass Blocking, the human (non player controlled) Blitzers often get dragged in to a block.

I said one year in slight jest " why does it feel like the cpu LB are planning a cunning stunt (yes pun intended), while my LB are thinking "right, who's supposed to block me on this play, I'd better go find him and let him"/ It would also explain why it's almost impossible to blitz through the "a" gap for example, because the guard or center has such a area of influence to his pass blocking. It's like there is an invisible wall there often. I reckon the cpu probably has an inbuilt scratch value of 300 for pass blocking. All the slider is doing, is adding a small percentage on top of that.

Anyways, great patience with the testing, fancy doing anything as similarly methodical for Pass Reaction Time, even though this sounds obvious, no-one seems 100% sure exactly what it does, in the same manner that you seem to have cracked blocking? (e.g. does it make corners run the receivers routes better? Do they stay tighter in zone coverage? Or do they just react better to a thrown ball..Or all of the above and more?)

Thanks again


Btw, And I'm sure you and most people know this, but for years, Madden has had something I call the "EA's Variety Slider" or EVS for short. If it didn't exist, then if you played team A vs team B, 20 times in a row, you'd get very similar stats and results (overall). But you don't. For example, I played the Giants vs My Jets 5 games in a row, for one of my slider tests. In 4 of those 5 games, Jones found it fairly tough to run with my sliders, mostly getting around 17-50, 17-60 in the game. Then in one game, on my very first run, I got a decent gain. Nothing fancy, just better blocking. I finished that one with something like 25/130, no really big gain to boost that. I wasn't running any better, and wasn't playing against a diff D scheme, I was calling the same plays, but they were almost all working.

This is the EVS. Before some games, the program seems to decide that x or y rating will be boosted/ lowered for the whole game. For that game, it seemed to be human run block up, Cpu Blk Shed down, and RB Break Tackle up. It may even influence individual ratings. It's impossible to say. The point being, that this does exist, and kicks in quite frequently. That's why it's so important to test sliders with the same 2 teams and conditions (for a number of games at least).

Just a thought really, to add on to the general slider info. You read a lot on these forums, "I used X's sliders, and they were too easy/too hard, I blew out the computer it couldn't run/ran too easily etc.etc." Best to play the same game again, and see how it goes. Then again, it's the only way to get a feel for if the sliders work for you overall..

Enough of this rant, you're doing a fine job

[bill2451]

db, I have a long post on page 2 that gets into Pass Reaction time a bit... my testing more turned into WR Catching testing, but Pass Reaction is involved some.

initial results are it has a small effect on CB's aggressiveness (quicker reactions means they can play tighter because they react quicker... their press is slightly more effective, etc)...

the easiest thing to recognize is that reaction time plays a huge part in actually covering the WR when they make cuts... 0 reaction time will usually mean the CB will take a step or two after the WR starts his cut, before they can adjust and start to cut themselves, while 100 reaction time means that the CB pretty much knows exactly when the WR is going to turn and does it at the same time

in my 2nd page post though, I explain why that reaction time is pointless 80% of the time (because the WR has to adjust for momentum and take a few small steps and plant while the CB can super turn... which means they easily make up for that slightly later reaction time and end up getting ahead of the WR anyway)

there could possibly be a way to reduce the defensive back super turn though so that both offense and defense have to use that momentum animation more than they currently do (I doubt it can be removed 100%)... which would then make reaction time a very useful thing to adjust

just check out the long post on page 2

I still plan to test other things to see what (if any) other effects reaction time has... because that is certainly something very important that I'm still not sure on

[RumbleCard]

Quote:

If you want the defensive line to be better, but blitzes to have more of an effect, put both the Pass Rush and Pass Block sliders low... this will make it harder for the o-line to engage the blitzers because they will be on the move and coming from different angles (remember it is still easy for them to initially engage the o-line if they are just coming right at them, so you dont have to worry about that) while making them more capable when the block is engaged with the line... who knows, it could even make the 3-4 relevant with different blitzing schemes... from what I see, low Pass Block makes offensive line stunts, blitzes, and zone blitzes where ends drop into coverage more effective because it means guys are coming at the QB from all different places (meaning the chances of them getting by w/out being suctioned into a block are increased) while high Pass Block pretty much eliminates those things from being a threat because the O-line can engage in a block with pretty much anyone coming at them from any angle High Pass Rush meanwhile will make the d-line deadly (especially user controlled people) because they simply cant be blocked for long at all... and a low Pass Rush will yield the d-line impotent because its harder for them to get out of a block once engaged, and if you have it low enough you better be prepared to blitz the house everytime otherwise the QB will literally have 10 seconds in the pocket.

Okay I bolded some points I want clarification on. I'm pretty much with you on everything but this. If the CPU has a low Pass Block its harder for the animation to engage. If I have a high pass rush I'm more effective at getting out of the block and getting to the QB.

So why would I want pass block and pass rush low. Wouldn't I want pass block to be low and my pass rush to be high to fully optimize my chances of getting a sack?

Are you saying it would be harder for the o-lineman to come off my d-lineman and pick up the blitzing LB's in a 3-4 if my pass rush was low because the o-line would be engaged with my d-lineman longer?

Effectively saying that if you run a 3-4 and you want to see more LB sacks lower your pass rush along with the pass block because it'll get the LB's through the holes better......because the o-line isn't releasing from the d-lineman and jumping on to the LB's.

[bill2451]

Quote: Originally Posted by RumbleCard

Okay I bolded some points I want clarification on. I'm pretty much with you on everything but this. If the CPU has a low Pass Block its harder for the animation to engage. If I have a high pass rush I'm more effective at getting out of the block and getting to the QB. So why would I want pass block and pass rush low. Wouldn't I want pass block to be low and my pass rush to be high to fully optimize my chances of getting a sack? Are you saying it would be harder for the o-lineman to come off my d-lineman and pick up the blitzing LB's in a 3-4 if my pass rush was low because the o-line would be engaged with my d-lineman longer?

it depends greatly on how you play defense... for me, I'm the giants and play as Osi or Tuck quite a bit... so for me, a high Pass Rush is way too easy because I can burn the CPU

now if you play as a LB or in the secondary, a high Pass rush is probably necessary because the ai wont shed blocks very well otherwise

you bring up an interesting point with the blitz part though... this is the area where any help and testing by other people to find the correct balance would be awesome...

assuming your not playing on the d-line and the CPU pass blocking is on the low end (so its harder to engage a block), a low Pass Rush would mean longer blocks being held, which should mean blitzers have a better chance at finding a gap and getting the to QB... the problem is that if its too low you'll have to have some sort of blitz every play to get any pressure (which i guess is realistic in the 3-4), and the moment any of your blitzers get fully engaged, their pass rush hopes are done.

there has to be a balance for AI lineman to shed blocks or have those blocks held... and again idk exactly what the Pass Rush slider would have to be at for that balance, so more people testing and giving input the better... but also keep in mind that balance should make the 3-4 and 4-3 equal... the 4-3 would probably need higher Pass Rush (for AI controlled) because theres less blitzing, and the 3-4 would need lower because blocks should be held longer and more blitzing

find where Pass Rush is as realistic as possible for 4-3... find where its as realistic as possible for 3-4... and then somewhere in between it should be a good balance for both

if that balance can be achieved where the AI can produce good results, i'd stop playing as the DE and play more coverage... because if i keep playing DE my results would vary grealy

[g2thecore]

This dude Bill deserves a freaking trophy!!! I created some sliders last night based on your theory, and I gotta say it was AMAZING! Probably the most realistic football experience I've had thus far! And for that, I give you all the credit.

I'll be posting them later on today,and maybe people will dissect and analyze them to make them better. I basically used your "extremes" theory, and played around with the various blocking settings and I got some good results.

I do have a question though, where does the "speed threshold" factor into all this? Did you experiment with that as well? Do you think playing on slow with an extreme threshold of let's say 5, is acceptable or realistic?

[Justin Clark]

Pretty good stuff bill, very in depth. Question, will you have a look at Playmakers sliders and see what you think abou them and how they compare to your theory here?

[bill2451]

first let me just say thanks for all the kind words everyone

now to g2thecore's comment, I have not screwed around with speed threshold... i had my old sliders at 65 because i thought that was a good balance for seperation for both fast and slow player (if the threshold is too low it gives fast ppl too much of an advantage while if it is too high it gives slower guys too much of an advantage because their slowness can not be taken advantage of too much)... a fast guy at 0 will kill, but a guy like Brandon Jacobs at 100 will kill also because normally if he breaks into the open field with his power he will be caught, but at 100 fast guys dont gain enough ground on him and he can take it too the house too easily (i think initially everyone assumed a 100 speed threshold reduced big plays... but imo it just shifts the type of player making the big play)

65 also seemed to mesh well with lineman speeds (guards being able to pull on outside runs, etc)

but overall, it was far less "scientific" and more "opinion" with my choice for speed threshold... so that is open to be played with, and at this point it could possibly (or probably lol) be changed to produce more realistic results

at this point though, I just figured i'd keep it something consistant while i was/am figuring out what everything does and how the sliders work together... trying to change that while doing everything else would have been far too hard to know what was actually effecting the gameplay